Nuclear weapons: Can they be stopped?

yasin_khan

New Member
Nuclear technology is now so widespread that it is only political will which stops many countries from making nuclear weapons.Mohamed ElBaradei, head of the UN's nuclear regulatory body the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), said recently that 40 countries could make the bomb if they wanted to.

The reason for this is that the technology legally used to enrich uranium to make fuel for nuclear power can easily be developed to make material for nuclear weapons.

A country could do this in secret or withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), and do it anyway.

This is the Achilles' heel of the NPT - an agreement designed to stop the spread of nuclear weapons while allowing countries access to nuclear power.

But if even only one or two of them go nuclear, or are thought to be doing so, it could bring tension and even war into their regions.
The United States has not ruled out the use of military action to prevent proliferation.

The US Under Secretary for Arms Control and International Security John Bolton wrote in the Financial Times earlier this month:

"We are determined to use every resource at our disposal - using diplomacy regularly, economic pressure when it makes a difference, active law enforcement when appropriate and military force when we must."

Such a policy can be expected to continue under a second Bush administration. A President Kerry would probably be more cautious about the use of force.

Take Iran and North Korea, the two countries currently in the frame.


Iran

Iran says that it intends to enrich uranium to make fuel, claiming its right to do so. It is defying a demand from the IAEA for it to suspend its plan and await fuller inspections.

The US and others, including Britain, demand that Iran abandon enrichment altogether on the grounds that it cannot be trusted.

If Israel thought that Iran was using its enrichment capability to build a bomb, which Iran says it is not, it might attack Iran's nuclear facilities. Israel will certainly not give Iran the benefit of any doubt.

Only this week, reports emerged that the US was supplying Israel with 500 "bunker-busting" bombs which would be useful in any such attack. Israel has already started a diplomatic and media campaign to publicise its fears of Iranian intentions.

North Korea

North Korea has withdrawn from the NPT and is said by British Foreign Office Minister Bill Rammell, who visited the country recently, to have produced possibly two nuclear devices already. Talks have so far failed to make it change its mind.
"A North Korean nuclear weapon could tip Japan and South Korea into making their own," said Dr Gary Samore, Senior Fellow for Non-Proliferation at the International Institute for Strategic Studies in London and a former official in the Clinton administration.

It would also force a second Bush administration to decide whether to keep talking, to reluctantly accept a nuclear North Korea and impose sanctions, or try to destroy its nuclear plants.

The risk of that is great. It could start a general war on the Korean peninsula.

Tightening the Treaty

There is a move afoot to tighten the NPT which is reviewed every five years. The next review is in 2005.

The Bush administration has proposed a number of Treaty amendments, the most important of which would stop the spread of enrichment technology.

"The first proposal would close the loophole in the Treaty that allows states such as Iran and North Korea to pursue fissile material for nuclear weapons under peaceful cover.

"Enrichment and reprocessing plants would be limited to those states that now possess them," John Bolton told a nuclear conference earlier this year.

Another proposal would prevent the sale of nuclear fuel to countries without a rigorous inspection regime.

However, Washington is not relying on the NPT being made to work more effectively.

"Counter-proliferation"

It has initiated a much more active campaign which it calls "counter-proliferation."
It has formed the "Proliferation Security Initiative" with like-minded countries.

Sometimes called an "action not an organisation", the PSI is aimed at disrupting the sale and shipments of nuclear components, if necessary by interceptions at sea.

The US has also got the Security Council to pass Resolution 1540 which insists that member states tighten procedures to try to stop what are called "non state actors" i.e. rogue scientists from selling their wares and expertise.

The A Q Khan network

One such rogue scientist was Dr A Q Khan, the "father " of the Pakistani bomb, who was found to be transferring his expertise, certainly to Libya and possibly to Iran.
An interception of some his equipment on the way to Libya took place last year when a charter ship was diverted to an Italian port.

Libya subsequently renounced its secret nuclear programme and has been rewarded by the lifting of sanctions.

Libya is now held up as an example of how a rogue nuclear state can be brought back into the international fold.

NPT flaws

Non-nuclear and strongly anti-nuclear countries like New Zealand point to two further flaws in the NPT.

They complain that the nuclear powers accepted as such under the NPT (the US, Soviet Union (now Russia), China, Britain and France) have not worked for total nuclear disarmament as they are supposed to and as they re-committed themselves to at the last NPT review meeting in 2000.

This leads to claims that the NPT is a club used by the powerful, especially the US, to keep down the weak.

The other flaw is that a number of nuclear powers are not members of the NPT. These are Israel, India and Pakistan. They are therefore free of restrictions. Iran for one says that this unfair and that Israel should be forced to give up its nuclear weapons.

Israel in turn claims that it is in special peril.

India and Pakistan argue that if the US and others have weapons for defence and proclaim the value of the nuclear deterrence, then so should they.

However, the failure to bring them into the NPT has tempted others to join them outside. North Korea has done so.

And successes

However, there have been non-proliferation successes.

South Africa and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons. The whole of South America remains nuclear-free.

"The number of countries in the NPT which have pursued nuclear weapons is very small. Libya has given up. North Korea has left. That leaves the question of Iran, " said Dr Samore.

"Statistically, the treaty is doing OK," he said.
 

P.A.F

New Member
if america and isreal has the right to posess them then so do the others. so the answer to this is NO
 

redsoulja

New Member
i agree wiht PAF on this, if one countrycanhave nukesso can the others, nothing can stop the spread ofnukes
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
So, let me get this right, both of you fundamentally think that there is no need for the NPT?

So all the members of the NPT (approx 24 without nukes) can go out and recommence their nuclear weapons programmes.

Lets see, that would make almost 1/4 of the world with nukes., :eek
 

redsoulja

New Member
well u put ti in such a badway
i dont like NPT it restricts countries form having a deterrent it is every countries right to have a deterrent, i mean the NPT only allows the P-5 to have nukes , this would mean they can wage war with everyother ucountry nto associated with the P-5 ??????????????? if the yanks are ok wit israelhaving nukes theyshould be ok wit other countries lol
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You don't seem to realise that it's not only the US involved here. It also includes France, UK, Russia etc... I don't see any criticism levelled at Russia - which makes me question the sincerity and motivation of the challenge about legitimacy.

It seems to follow the usual mantra of anti-US and/or anti-Israeli and forgetting the reality of what is happening wrt to the rest of the world players.

A little bit of history for you - if yhe US and Russia had not managed the 1973 war as they did, you would probably discover that most of the middle east would be glass. Israel was ready to tip its Jerichoes as it thought that she was about to be over run, Russia was making noises that she would provide Egypt with nukes in response (although by that stage it would have been too late) The US managed (along with Russia) to rapidly get a cease fire in place.

Now, lets assume that Russia and the US are not part of that scenario. If Israel invoked the Masada response what do you think the outcome would have been?

In NorKs case, naybe China should turn off fuel supplies and South Korea should stop providing food, then NorK can work out whether she wants to build weapons or to feed her population properly. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out their priorities.
 

redsoulja

New Member
then what about india, she wants to eb a legitimate nuclear power, she claims them to be a deterrant preventing the chinese form nuclear blackmail??
yet she isn't part of the P-5 and hasn't signed th NPT?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
redsoulja said:
then what about india, she wants to eb a legitimate nuclear power, she claims them to be a deterrant preventing the chinese form nuclear blackmail??
yet she isn't part of the P-5 and hasn't signed th NPT?
whats your point? Australia and India went into the diplomatic wilderness when she detonated her last test weapon - we fundamentally disagree with her policy - as we do with pakistan.

Do you actually understand the whole premise behind the construct of the NPT? Signing it commits the country to issues of safeguards, IAEA inspections, promises regarding waste material disposal - which all members who have nukes are committed to.

Russians and Americans regularly have reciprocal investigation exchanges.

You seem to have a very poor understanding of what is involved here. It appears to be limited to the notion of weapons denial and not technology responsibility.
 

turin

New Member
i agree wiht PAF on this, if one countrycanhave nukesso can the others, nothing can stop the spread ofnukes
Excuse me? The US got nukes since WW2, Russia about the same time. Did this automatically spread nukes tech all over the world? Certainly not and for a good reason. The NPT is integral for giving at least a small assurance that youn dont have to expect the world blown to high heaven over some trivial border dispute between two marginal countries somewhere on the globe.

well u put ti in such a badway
i dont like NPT it restricts countries form having a deterrent it is every countries right to have a deterrent, i mean the NPT only allows the P-5 to have nukes , this would mean they can wage war with everyother ucountry nto associated with the P-5 ??????????????? if the yanks are ok wit israelhaving nukes theyshould be ok wit other countries lol
DID the P5 wage war with every other country theire not associated with? Certainly not. Do they permanently thread some other country with their nukes in order to get something they want? Well that would exactly be the situation with a nuclear North Korea. This countries government, as incapable as brutal, is constantly blackmailing even the US for getting food they could produce on their own if they would turn away from massive militarization.

It will be an interesting time when they really got some nukes over there but I suggest you remain in safe canada in order to enjoy the show without risking sunburn. :mrgreen

While India and Pakistan have at least shown some responsibility not to throw their nukes at each other in an instant, I wouldnt go so far as to assume that for every other hill billy out there...

In NorKs case, naybe China should turn off fuel supplies and South Korea should stop providing food, then NorK can work out whether she wants to build weapons or to feed her population properly. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out their priorities.
Well then their priority would be to trigger some artillery strikes, I guess. In NorKs case I got the impression they left the way of responsibility quite some time ago.
 

lamdacore

New Member
well GF what do you think about statements that the Bush administration gave to the Taliban, such as sending themback to the stoneage? I don't think that nations in the NPT program would ever threaten nations that are already in stoneage!

Also, i believe that the NPT is just there not to limit the problem of nuclear proliferation but as an excuse to blame other states that are at the verge of obtaining such technology.

Another thing...why not eradicate the whole thing from the world all at once as though it were a disease? unfortunately that will not happen beecause the US and Israel won't accept such demands. It would be against their pride, demands, policies, and of course their grand plan to remove any opposition.

If the US is so keen in having a nuclear free world then why did it use the atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki. After all they knew the consequences the bomb would have on Japan. Its just a big game where the US wants to be the lone power.

Concerning why people do not point a finger at Russia or China is because these states are not performing biased activities against other nations yet. The day they do the samething as the US...well they'll learn a lesson from history by then!

So it is a right for every nation to obtain nuclear rechnology for military use and commercial use. Its ridiculous to say that only a few nations in the world can have this power. No one is going to stick up to such imbalance of nuclear power in the world.

I'll post more determining on the feedback from other people!!
 

suleman

New Member
Technology is moving at a very fast pace and it wont be long when everyday you see a new country trying to have the nuclear weapons.To me the best option is that all countries finish their wmd and make this world free from them and nuclear power countries can set this example for others but its just a dream and never gonna happen.
Secondly i always wonder what is the criteria of judging a Responsible state? and who will do this? But before any such judgment keep one thing in mind that USA is the only country which used this weapon.
Certainly its dangerous for the world to have WMD's but if one country can have them so do others. For USA its not for deterrence as they can defend themselves against any threat through conventional weapons but for weaker countries its the only way for their survival against much stronger countries in all aspects.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
lamdacore said:
well GF what do you think about statements that the Bush administration gave to the Taliban, such as sending themback to the stoneage? I don't think that nations in the NPT program would ever threaten nations that are already in stoneage!
If I was the Leader of a country, and had found that they were complicit in attacking my population from the shelter of civilian facilities - I would do my maximum to remove them as a threat. The US is capable of doing that without nukes.

lamdacore said:
Also, i believe that the NPT is just there not to limit the problem of nuclear proliferation but as an excuse to blame other states that are at the verge of obtaining such technology.
Why is that? Because it doesn't fit your view of the world? Have you studied the reasons for the establishment for the NPT? Have you bothered to see the speeches of the countries that have given reasons for joining?

lamdacore said:
Another thing...why not eradicate the whole thing from the world all at once as though it were a disease? unfortunately that will not happen beecause the US and Israel won't accept such demands. It would be against their pride, demands, policies, and of course their grand plan to remove any opposition.
Just for once on this forum I would love to have an intelligent debate about world politics without someone invoking an Orwellian mantra about the US and Israel. It often denotes a failed comprehension of other issues.

lamdacore said:
If the US is so keen in having a nuclear free world then why did it use the atomic bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki. After all they knew the consequences the bomb would have on Japan. Its just a big game where the US wants to be the lone power.
Oh Pleeeeease! have you studied any history outside of your own country? Do you actually know about WW2, do you know why it was used? Do you know what the alternatives were? Do you actually understand politics at all beyond the rythmic recording of "lone power"?

lamdacore said:
Concerning why people do not point a finger at Russia or China is because these states are not performing biased activities against other nations yet. The day they do the samething as the US...well they'll learn a lesson from history by then!
I'm losing my patience here - have you looked at Russia in Hungary, Roumania, Czechoslovakia, Poland etc?? China wrt to Tibet?, Chinas bullying of Taiwan now that she has more money to spend on her military?

lamdacore said:
So it is a right for every nation to obtain nuclear rechnology for military use and commercial use. Its ridiculous to say that only a few nations in the world can have this power. No one is going to stick up to such imbalance of nuclear power in the world.
Once more with patience - it's about responsibility. Looking at some of the responses coming in here - when you fail to comprehend basic history - one then hopes that the politicians have at least a modicum of comprehension about risk and history, cause and effect.

lamdacore said:
I'll post more determining on the feedback from other people!!
I suggest that you study history since 1942 on. Plus a good look at the profile of Kim would maybe make you realise why even China is looking at a way out to manage Kim. She has more to lose than the US in this exercise. radiation doesn't follow international borders - its rather egalitarian.
 

lamdacore

New Member
GF, i have studied plenty of history and by the way what i posted did not represent my view alone but this view is held by many people world wide. Engineers, doctors, and many more business men i sit with at times and hear discuss these issues share the same view.

If I state that the US is the first country to use nuclear weapons what the hell is wrong in that? its a fact and people all work and base their opinions on facts.

The reason i said that Russia and China aren't getting the same response as the US is because they never used nuclear weapons. Read what i said..."The day they do the samething as the US...well they'll learn a lesson from history by then! "

This is what my stance would be for them as well. I don't have a biased approach to any nation.

Do you deny that just because Israel states that it does not posses nuclear weapons the story ends? No!! why would people still stick to the idea (or fact) that it does indeed posses nuclear weapons?

Talking about responsibility, Iran takes responsibility that it will use nuclear technology for commercial use only. Why then is it being crushed by other nations (US, UK,.....and it goes on).

I see you hate that i keep pointing a finger at the US! well my friend...why doesn't the US really do something that unifies rather than divides.

My final point at the moment would be that I'm not against the NPT but if it is going to have a biased approach then such treaty sounds absolutely ridiculous. What guarantee is there that the P5 would not use these weapons on any other nation at their will. Please don't bring in politics! and the past and so on...! This is why the word deterrence is used! Every country wants a deterrence any other that is more powerful.
 

P.A.F

New Member
what gives the nuke major nuke powers the right to poses em if other countries themselves can't posess them for self protection. :?

and my answer to the topic is no. simply because isreal america russia and others are not prepared to get rid of there weapons of mass destruction. thay say WMD WMD WMD axis of evil axis of evil but then fail to look at themselves. it don't make sense. the only way this world will become denukelearised is if the major players make a good move and start dismantaling them.
 

lamdacore

New Member
well PAF i second you opinion as well. I hope GF understands what many people in the thread are also demanding.

All said with respect and no offence!!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
lamdacore said:
The reason i said that Russia and China aren't getting the same response as the US is because they never used nuclear weapons. Read what i said..."The day they do the samething as the US...well they'll learn a lesson from history by then! "
The Russian view was that a nuke war was winnable, the US view was that there would be no winners. Some of the recent PLA documents in the last 6 months also seem to indicate a view that a nuclear war is winnable. That should be of concern to anyone as radiation is not ethinically specific, radiologically selective or separated from religion. That has a direct impact on what can happen WRT to Taiwan.

lamdacore said:
Do you deny that just because Israel states that it does not posses nuclear weapons the story ends? No!! why would people still stick to the idea (or fact) that it does indeed posses nuclear weapons?
Israel has a policy of non confirmation - but to assume that it doesn't is lunacy. Besides, there are ways to actually determine whether a country has deployable nukes without necessarily visiting the location. The Russians certainly detected Jerichoes being armed in 1973.

lamdacore said:
Talking about responsibility, Iran takes responsibility that it will use nuclear technology for commercial use only. Why then is it being crushed by other nations (US, UK,.....and it goes on).
Then I suggest that you speak to your scientist friends. They will tell you that some processes in the setting up of nuclear facilities clearly do not have any bearing on nuclear energy. When you state that you are building facilities for energy production, and those processes are not used for anything except weapons mass byproduct, plus the fact that the electricity grid does not support the supposed power being generated, plus the fact that power is adequately being provided within that region by a considerable margin - then yes, you have some pretty clear reasons to doubt the statements.

lamdacore said:
I see you hate that i keep pointing a finger at the US! well my friend...why doesn't the US really do something that unifies rather than divides.
No, what gets my gander up is that there are a lot of people in here who obviously have a limited knowledge of warfighting and history and make rather idiotic statements to support their own version of racism or their own theological disconnect. There are a number of things that I disagree with on US policy - and there are things that I disagree with Indian, Pakistani, Chinese and Australian policy, but I won't ley a corruption of facts and a cessation of logic disconnect me from attempting to make structured responses.

lamdacore said:
My final point at the moment would be that I'm not against the NPT but if it is going to have a biased approach then such treaty sounds absolutely ridiculous. What guarantee is there that the P5 would not use these weapons on any other nation at their will. Please don't bring in politics! and the past and so on...! This is why the word deterrence is used! Every country wants a deterrence any other that is more powerful.
Have you read the majority of responses that come from people in here - guess what, they are based on local politics - and often it is very very clear that they have no idea what they are talking about. I happen to dislike people who make things up without doing the proper due diligence. Thats why urban myths prosper and become "fact"

There is no shortage of that in here.
 

lamdacore

New Member
GF, are u implying that everyone else in this forum is an idiot!!??. Then there is no point of this forum.

Just because many people give a similar view of things doesn't mean that there is lack of knowledge. Infact it means that what people hear is right.

GF, you are a person that has suffiecient knowledge in arms, so how can u say that myths exist. If someone put their fantasies on others would definitely corner them. There are no myths, it media which gives rise to such issues and responses. You can of course debate on whether the news the media broadcasts is a fact or propaganda!!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
lamdacore said:
GF, are u implying that everyone else in this forum is an idiot!!??. Then there is no point of this forum.

Just because many people give a similar view of things doesn't mean that there is lack of knowledge. Infact it means that what people hear is right.

GF, you are a person that has suffiecient knowledge in arms, so how can u say that myths exist. If someone put their fantasies on others would definitely corner them. There are no myths, it media which gives rise to such issues and responses. You can of course debate on whether the news the media broadcasts is a fact or propaganda!!
No, I'm not saying people in here are idiots. What I've said all along is that you need to do research before accepting things as fact just because they happen to fit your view of the world. A good example of this was the issue of Gripens, Mirages for India and Rafales.

I seem to recall that when I challenged the issues of those platforms I was unceremoniously attacked as people took it as a slight on the PAF. Blind freddy only had to look at the facts and work out that some of those things were just not going to happen.

And has been said by me a number of times - the media takes some heavy responsibility for publishing rubbish which is automatically accepted as fact by local consumers. You've all seen what happened with PAKDEF when they went public with the Rafale - fortunately people were chastened enough by the farago of what happened with the Gripen not to get suckered again so badly.

Promotion of an issue without looking logically at it doesn't help anyone - all it does is reinforce that some have stronger levels of obstinancy than others.

;)
 

lamdacore

New Member
GF, we all need to do research thats all i can say. None of us in this forum is perfect and everyones opinion is questionable. That is why u have an upper edge on some people and then some people have an upper edge on you!!!

Thats the way and thats why its called a forum!
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
lamdacore said:
GF, we all need to do research thats all i can say. None of us in this forum is perfect and everyones opinion is questionable. That is why u have an upper edge on some people and then some people have an upper edge on you!!!

Thats the way and thats why its called a forum!
;) I don't think I'm perfect, but I do try to show people in here that the world can spin at different rates.

And I don't say things to have an edge, after all it is a forum. But the younger members in here need to curb their feelings as "hate" is a wasted and futile emotion.

(unfortunately some adults have a similar problem) ;)
 
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