This interview is bit outdated as it was given on 5-3-2004 to a popular local channel Geo(live).This interview gives useful insights about Our Missile and Nuclear related matters.SOme of you might have read it and some of you not.So i posted for those peoples who have not read it yet.
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Hamid Mir: Mr.Samar first of all please tell us when did our nuclear program begin?
Samar: In 1962 when I was first associated with this program, the first phase of this program was underway, at that time the development of manpower and human resource required for this program was initiated. A large number of people were sent abroad by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission for higher studies and to acquire PhDs, and they were sent to the world’s best universities and I also went to Oxford for my PhD during that time. So during the 1970s and 80s, manpower was further expanded and developed and trained.
Along with this, in the 60s the Pakistan Institute of Nuclear Science and Technology, also known as PINSTECH was set up where a research reactor was established. At that time Pakistan consisted of two parts, East and West Pakistan, and at that time a research reactor and an atomic accelerator was also set up at Dhaka, and many scientists were also trained there.
So basically some facilities for research were set up in the country and people were sent abroad for higher studies. So when India conducted its atomic test in 1974, at that time our Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto sahib had already resolved that Pakistan would also run its own atomic program and nuclear weapons program, so when India conducted its test in 1974, this resolve transformed into practical reality.
Hamid Mir: So we can say that research had begun in the 60s….
Samar: Yes research had begun in the 60s.
Hamid Mir: And this practical work on this research began in the 1970s?
Samar: Yes in the 1970s that research transformed into an atomic program.
Hamid Mir: You joined this research in 1962?
Samar: Yes I joined the PAEC and began to be associated with this research.
Hamid Mir:Mr. Samar please tell us that the former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission of Pakistan, late Munir Ahmed Khan sahib once told us that our first cold test was conducted in 1983, will you please tell us something regarding this?
Samar: Yes, when our program began in 1974, first of all we had to develop an infrastructure, which included a very big design team of nuclear physicists which by the Grace of Allah still exists and is very competent and if required can deliver a new atomic bomb design to the country every three to four months, as per our requirements.
Then facilities were also created for manufacturing, because when a bomb is being designed and made, facilities for explosives are needed, ultra-high precision facilities of mechanical engineering are required, then electronics have to be fully mastered, then once a weapon has been developed, then a totally different technology has to be mastered to test that weapon because testing is such an event that once you press a button, the bomb is detonated and the entire test is over in a few micro-seconds.
So you should have such a capability of testing that in those one or two microseconds, the yield of the bomb is measured accurately and the performance of the bomb is properly gauged and understood. So all this was done and by 1983 the first bomb was also developed, which was ready for a cold test. Then you need some tunnels in the mountains for conducting a test, which should be in a strong rock wherein the tunnels should be constructed so that during a test no radiation or damage is leaked outside the mountain.
This infrastructure also took 5-6 years to develop, and work on it continued from 1977 to 1982-83. When we were ready for a cold test, the government gave us permission to conduct it, and it was the month of March, during which the first cold test was conducted and believe me, it was conducted very discreetly. We drove big trucks without drivers for many hundreds of kilometers ourselves and our scientists acquired heavy driving licenses for this purpose and then conducted the cold test.
Hamid Mir: Where was the cold test conducted?
Samar: I cannot tell you the site where the cold test was conducted…
Hamid Mir: So the cold test was conducted under your supervision?
Samar: Yes it was conducted under my supervision because I was the leader of the test team at that time. So when the test took place, Allah Almighty gave us success and believe me the joy that we had for the cold test at that time was so much that we realized that today we have become a nuclear power, but we could not express it because we were told to keep it secret.
Hamid Mir: You just said that our scientists are so competent that they can develop a new bomb design every three to four months but some people in the international media say that Pakistan’s nuclear program is not indigenous and is dependent on bits and pieces (components and equipment) taken from here and there.?
Samar: Look, components and equipment are available throughout the world and their utility is dual use, you can also use them for peaceful applications, like electronic components that can either be used in a radio or can be used in an atomic bomb, there is steel, which can either be used in a bridge or can be used in an atomic bomb also.
So this is no argument, dual use items are available of every kind and from every where, which if you need you can acquire. Now you know that the Internet is available, if you go on the Internet, you can get crude designs of a bomb also. But if designs are also available in the world and if materials are also available in the black market, then 30-40 countries in the world should have been able to develop atom bombs by now. What is the thing that is an obstacle for a country to develop this capability of a bomb?
What we are able to gather from our 40-42 year experience is that we have had almost two generations who have been associated with this program. First we trained the manpower, then we began work on the bomb, then we conducted the first cold test, then there was a design in the cold test which we knew would certainly work but where and how would we use it, because it was such a large size which could not be fitted on to a missile or an aircraft.
So after 1983 till 1998, we developed 5-6 more designs, conducted their cold tests and not one but more than one cold tests.
And we confirmed that they were the right designs, and we developed them in large quantities and kept them with us, and when we had a chance, we tested all these designs, and all of them were successful, all six of them. Now after passing through this experience, and after working in this program for so many years, and I mentioned the Internet to you also, and I also talked about materials, after saying all this I think no one should have any doubt in his mind that after acquiring four components from the black market, and after getting a design from the internet, it is not an easy task that any one can do. So anyone cannot do it, because if anyone could do it so easily, then many countries would have done it by now.
Hamid Mir: From 14-15 years, Libya and Iran have been buying components and materials from the black market, but they could not develop anything?
Samar: This is proof of the fact that they tried very hard to acquire materials from the black market to develop a program but the bottom line is that until and unless there is a human resource available in a country which understands this work to such an extent that it is able to develop and raise this program from zero to 100% all by itself, till then this work cannot be accomplished.
Hamid Mir: There is another important thing, please tell us about it, on 28th May 1998, who carried out the nuclear tests?
Samar: I was leading that team. I was working for the Atomic Energy Commission at that time. And I have worked in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from 1962 to 2001. And because atom bombs were developed in PAEC, the entire testing capabilities were there, all the tunnels were developed by the Atomic Energy Commission, site was theirs, I was leading the team that was looking after this program in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from every angle, so it was natural for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to have given this responsibility to me. And I went to Chaghi with 140 scientists, engineers and technicians and there we conducted these tests.
Hamid Mir: But we had heard that Dr. Qadeer sahib was also present at Chaghi?
Samar: Look, we cannot carry out an atomic test at the spur of the moment, without preparation. I visited Chaghi for the first time in 1981. We installed the instruments in the tunnels, prepared the tunnels according to our requirements, we built atomic bombs during this time also, conducted their cold tests, and when we were asked to carry out these tests, we were given only six days notice. This work cannot be done in six days alone.
This was successful in six days only because we were working on and were associated with this program, with the test site, with testing procedures for 20-25 years and we have developed all these processes and procedures ourselves. So technically we had complete mastery over all this work. When these tests were conducted, our team went there on 20th May, and on 28th May, in the early morning, the tunnels were plugged and the preparation for the test was complete and on 28th May, around 3.pm was the time selected for testing. So at that time, at about 2.45 pm, some of our guests arrived to witness the tests, and Dr. Qadeer Khan sahib was also one of them.
Hamid Mir: He (Qadeer) came to see the tests?
Samar: Yes he came there to see the tests and it was the first visit of his life to Chaghi. And he came there at the invitation of the chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and he arrived 15 minutes prior to the explosions. At that time we were present at a remote site 15-20 kms away from the test site from where we had to conduct the tests. So he came there and joined us in the Dua and then we conducted the test in his presence and we showed him the test and other guests also saw the test.
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Hamid Mir: Mr.Samar first of all please tell us when did our nuclear program begin?
Samar: In 1962 when I was first associated with this program, the first phase of this program was underway, at that time the development of manpower and human resource required for this program was initiated. A large number of people were sent abroad by the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission for higher studies and to acquire PhDs, and they were sent to the world’s best universities and I also went to Oxford for my PhD during that time. So during the 1970s and 80s, manpower was further expanded and developed and trained.
Along with this, in the 60s the Pakistan Institute of Nuclear Science and Technology, also known as PINSTECH was set up where a research reactor was established. At that time Pakistan consisted of two parts, East and West Pakistan, and at that time a research reactor and an atomic accelerator was also set up at Dhaka, and many scientists were also trained there.
So basically some facilities for research were set up in the country and people were sent abroad for higher studies. So when India conducted its atomic test in 1974, at that time our Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto sahib had already resolved that Pakistan would also run its own atomic program and nuclear weapons program, so when India conducted its test in 1974, this resolve transformed into practical reality.
Hamid Mir: So we can say that research had begun in the 60s….
Samar: Yes research had begun in the 60s.
Hamid Mir: And this practical work on this research began in the 1970s?
Samar: Yes in the 1970s that research transformed into an atomic program.
Hamid Mir: You joined this research in 1962?
Samar: Yes I joined the PAEC and began to be associated with this research.
Hamid Mir:Mr. Samar please tell us that the former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission of Pakistan, late Munir Ahmed Khan sahib once told us that our first cold test was conducted in 1983, will you please tell us something regarding this?
Samar: Yes, when our program began in 1974, first of all we had to develop an infrastructure, which included a very big design team of nuclear physicists which by the Grace of Allah still exists and is very competent and if required can deliver a new atomic bomb design to the country every three to four months, as per our requirements.
Then facilities were also created for manufacturing, because when a bomb is being designed and made, facilities for explosives are needed, ultra-high precision facilities of mechanical engineering are required, then electronics have to be fully mastered, then once a weapon has been developed, then a totally different technology has to be mastered to test that weapon because testing is such an event that once you press a button, the bomb is detonated and the entire test is over in a few micro-seconds.
So you should have such a capability of testing that in those one or two microseconds, the yield of the bomb is measured accurately and the performance of the bomb is properly gauged and understood. So all this was done and by 1983 the first bomb was also developed, which was ready for a cold test. Then you need some tunnels in the mountains for conducting a test, which should be in a strong rock wherein the tunnels should be constructed so that during a test no radiation or damage is leaked outside the mountain.
This infrastructure also took 5-6 years to develop, and work on it continued from 1977 to 1982-83. When we were ready for a cold test, the government gave us permission to conduct it, and it was the month of March, during which the first cold test was conducted and believe me, it was conducted very discreetly. We drove big trucks without drivers for many hundreds of kilometers ourselves and our scientists acquired heavy driving licenses for this purpose and then conducted the cold test.
Hamid Mir: Where was the cold test conducted?
Samar: I cannot tell you the site where the cold test was conducted…
Hamid Mir: So the cold test was conducted under your supervision?
Samar: Yes it was conducted under my supervision because I was the leader of the test team at that time. So when the test took place, Allah Almighty gave us success and believe me the joy that we had for the cold test at that time was so much that we realized that today we have become a nuclear power, but we could not express it because we were told to keep it secret.
Hamid Mir: You just said that our scientists are so competent that they can develop a new bomb design every three to four months but some people in the international media say that Pakistan’s nuclear program is not indigenous and is dependent on bits and pieces (components and equipment) taken from here and there.?
Samar: Look, components and equipment are available throughout the world and their utility is dual use, you can also use them for peaceful applications, like electronic components that can either be used in a radio or can be used in an atomic bomb, there is steel, which can either be used in a bridge or can be used in an atomic bomb also.
So this is no argument, dual use items are available of every kind and from every where, which if you need you can acquire. Now you know that the Internet is available, if you go on the Internet, you can get crude designs of a bomb also. But if designs are also available in the world and if materials are also available in the black market, then 30-40 countries in the world should have been able to develop atom bombs by now. What is the thing that is an obstacle for a country to develop this capability of a bomb?
What we are able to gather from our 40-42 year experience is that we have had almost two generations who have been associated with this program. First we trained the manpower, then we began work on the bomb, then we conducted the first cold test, then there was a design in the cold test which we knew would certainly work but where and how would we use it, because it was such a large size which could not be fitted on to a missile or an aircraft.
So after 1983 till 1998, we developed 5-6 more designs, conducted their cold tests and not one but more than one cold tests.
And we confirmed that they were the right designs, and we developed them in large quantities and kept them with us, and when we had a chance, we tested all these designs, and all of them were successful, all six of them. Now after passing through this experience, and after working in this program for so many years, and I mentioned the Internet to you also, and I also talked about materials, after saying all this I think no one should have any doubt in his mind that after acquiring four components from the black market, and after getting a design from the internet, it is not an easy task that any one can do. So anyone cannot do it, because if anyone could do it so easily, then many countries would have done it by now.
Hamid Mir: From 14-15 years, Libya and Iran have been buying components and materials from the black market, but they could not develop anything?
Samar: This is proof of the fact that they tried very hard to acquire materials from the black market to develop a program but the bottom line is that until and unless there is a human resource available in a country which understands this work to such an extent that it is able to develop and raise this program from zero to 100% all by itself, till then this work cannot be accomplished.
Hamid Mir: There is another important thing, please tell us about it, on 28th May 1998, who carried out the nuclear tests?
Samar: I was leading that team. I was working for the Atomic Energy Commission at that time. And I have worked in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from 1962 to 2001. And because atom bombs were developed in PAEC, the entire testing capabilities were there, all the tunnels were developed by the Atomic Energy Commission, site was theirs, I was leading the team that was looking after this program in the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission from every angle, so it was natural for Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif to have given this responsibility to me. And I went to Chaghi with 140 scientists, engineers and technicians and there we conducted these tests.
Hamid Mir: But we had heard that Dr. Qadeer sahib was also present at Chaghi?
Samar: Look, we cannot carry out an atomic test at the spur of the moment, without preparation. I visited Chaghi for the first time in 1981. We installed the instruments in the tunnels, prepared the tunnels according to our requirements, we built atomic bombs during this time also, conducted their cold tests, and when we were asked to carry out these tests, we were given only six days notice. This work cannot be done in six days alone.
This was successful in six days only because we were working on and were associated with this program, with the test site, with testing procedures for 20-25 years and we have developed all these processes and procedures ourselves. So technically we had complete mastery over all this work. When these tests were conducted, our team went there on 20th May, and on 28th May, in the early morning, the tunnels were plugged and the preparation for the test was complete and on 28th May, around 3.pm was the time selected for testing. So at that time, at about 2.45 pm, some of our guests arrived to witness the tests, and Dr. Qadeer Khan sahib was also one of them.
Hamid Mir: He (Qadeer) came to see the tests?
Samar: Yes he came there to see the tests and it was the first visit of his life to Chaghi. And he came there at the invitation of the chairman of the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission, and he arrived 15 minutes prior to the explosions. At that time we were present at a remote site 15-20 kms away from the test site from where we had to conduct the tests. So he came there and joined us in the Dua and then we conducted the test in his presence and we showed him the test and other guests also saw the test.
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