"India has...agreed in principle to sell Vietnam the Prithvi missile"

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drg

New Member
Here:
http://www.monthlyreview.org/0306rupe2.htm (Note: skip nearly halfway down the page, and look in the section that has something about an Asian NATO in its title)
I was actually looking for information on the recent small arms shipment from Pakistan to Vietnam, and, as is usually the case with my searching, I came across something else, that whilst not being entirely relevant, is interesting in its own right.
 

funtz

New Member
Well there is a little thing about people and the way they use the creative freedom they have.

The whole article as a whole features a lot of real nice stuff that should be quoted instead of the Prithvi missile

Thus it is no exaggeration to say that the United States is on a course of belligerence and terrorism against the people of the world. Various forces, of diverse character, have recognized this and are gearing up for the confrontation.
for more serious and mature thoughts on the India - Vietnam relations

India, Vietnam deepen defence, nuclear ties:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/story...e=India,+Vietnam+deepen+defence,+nuclear+ties

http://www.dae.gov.in/ni/ni0602/ni0602.htm


India and Vietnam in Changing East Asia:
Article no: 2262, Date: 13 April 2007
http://www.ipcs.org
 
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indian bull

Banned Member
No doubt India-veitnam ties are increasing in defence sector but selling directly Ballistic missiles that are nuclear capable and also helping Veitnam in Nuclear sphere points to a dangerous arms race and I doubt we could be doing this? We could loose our credibilty of having a good record in non-proliferation.
 

drg

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I was referring to this as there has been recent trouble over the Spratley Islands between Vietnam and China (China wants to hold exercises in the area, Vietnam doesnt want them to).
Funtz, please be careful, there may be people on the board who take offence to your quote of the article.
Anyways, the current trouble between Vietnam and China could lead to a memory jolt for Vietnam, if they haven't bought the Prithvi already.
 

funtz

New Member
I was referring to this as there has been recent trouble over the Spratley Islands between Vietnam and China (China wants to hold exercises in the area, Vietnam doesnt want them to).
Funtz, please be careful, there may be people on the board who take offence to your quote of the article.
Anyways, the current trouble between Vietnam and China could lead to a memory jolt for Vietnam, if they haven't bought the Prithvi already.
Well you gave the link to the article, i was trying to show that the article is obviously scripted with strong views, with out much thought for mature analysis, proving in a way that the Prithvi and Vietnam issue was probably the writer taking freedom too far.
There have been other references to this issue in the media however they are too few to gauge any thing accurately.
one such report from October 03, 2005 by Bharat Karnad professor, Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi

China uses Pak, Vietnam open to India

The problem is the Vietnamese want the Brahmos cruise missile, with which they promise to keep the Chinese Navy on the defensive in the South China Sea and the approaches to the Malacca Straits. This is an esteemable mission. The Indian government, acting sensibly, should help Vietnam achieve it.

But there is the proven short-range Prithvi missile, with impressive accuracy, that India can part with because, with the family of Agni missiles in the fray, it has become redundant.

Further, the transaction for the sub-300 km range Prithvi is permissible under the Missile Technology Control Regime.

In exchange for the conventional warheaded Prithvi now and the promise of more advanced missiles and other such strategic cooperation in the future, Hanoi should be persuaded to allow the Indian Navy a basing option in Cam Ranh Bay

BUT Cam Ranh Bay is a heady attraction for the United States and China as well. Vietnam has turned down such approaches essentially because it distrusts them. In the past, when the Indian Navy requested access to Cam Ranh Bay, the Vietnamese pleaded this would upset the big powers. However, the offer of missiles and other such strategic cooperation should prevail over Vietnam’s inhibitions.
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=55789

No follow up reports were seen by me.

And in case people still wonder the real power of indigenous military industry then some opinions have been expressed by the same author.

Vietnam should take all the steps that are necessary for their security. how they do it is their concern.

The relations between Vietnam and India are getting better, lot of business opportunity for both nations, and if need be some level of military cooperation will be there too, both nations respect each other as equals, however now is too soon to comment.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Last I heard, India had not joined the MTCR, so is not bound by its provisions. Since 2005, India has publicly stated that it will voluntarily abide by some of the provisions of the MTCR, but such voluntary restraint is not binding in any way.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Due to continues violations of the forum by INDIANBULL, I am closing down all India related Threads under my jurisdiction until action has been taken by the Admin & Supermods.

The threads would be reopened after consultations with the Admin & moderators' board.

Meanwhile it is recommended to all the members not to open any new India related thread or a clone of the older ones.

Sorry for the inconvenience.
 

sniperz11

New Member
Last I heard, India had not joined the MTCR, so is not bound by its provisions. Since 2005, India has publicly stated that it will voluntarily abide by some of the provisions of the MTCR, but such voluntary restraint is not binding in any way.
But Vietnam has joined MTCR I think, so theres no way they'll want to break it. Neither will India, else it be seen and called a "Proliferator", especially at a crucial time when it is looking for a more active role in International affairs.

Any breaking of MTCR restrictions by India will be immediately seized by China and Pak, and Critics and Nuke Ayatollahs in the US to demonize India and break Indo-US cooperation.

Plus, Vietnam doesnt need anything more than a 300 km missile... its sufficient for its uses.
 

Chrom

New Member
But Vietnam has joined MTCR I think, so theres no way they'll want to break it. Neither will India, else it be seen and called a "Proliferator", especially at a crucial time when it is looking for a more active role in International affairs.

Any breaking of MTCR restrictions by India will be immediately seized by China and Pak, and Critics and Nuke Ayatollahs in the US to demonize India and break Indo-US cooperation.

Plus, Vietnam doesnt need anything more than a 300 km missile... its sufficient for its uses.
Yes, Vietnam joined MTCR. But India dont. And the exchange is going India -> Vietnam - so, from my PoV, Veitnam do not break MTCR threaty. The MTCR threaty do not forbid developing or aquiring missile technoly by itself - it merery forbids prolifirating it to foreign countries.

Either way, this move would bring diplomatic issues of course - MTCR or not.
 

nero

New Member
which version of the prithvi is beng offerd to vietnam ???

what i don't get is why would a country like vietnam be interested in the prthvi ???
 

funtz

New Member
That is not confirmed news(from Vietnam or India).

Very little is offered by India in terms of military hardware to make any nation go in for a strategic relationship with India solely to meet their defence requirements, there are other factors at work ofcourse and that is where things might get interesting.
However a truly indigenous military equipment industry would have helped in more ways than one.
 

M21

New Member
You are right

Vietnamese don't have tech to make ballistic missiles more than 1000 km. What my father know about this..they can make scudB and upgrade ScubC by reduce payload to gain ranges. So far under Russian licence they make SA3,SA6,...to SA18...they don't have tech to make cruise missile..more than 100 km.....that is why india help them is right, and have some toys can defend themseft. and india not in mtcr..yes can sale it to them.
 

kay_man

New Member
Vietnamese don't have tech to make ballistic missiles more than 1000 km. What my father know about this..they can make scudB and upgrade ScubC by reduce payload to gain ranges. So far under Russian licence they make SA3,SA6,...to SA18...they don't have tech to make cruise missile..more than 100 km.....that is why india help them is right, and have some toys can defend themseft. and india not in mtcr..yes can sale it to them.
it must be a rumour or something, coz i havent heard a squeak about.but if it is true its a good opportunity to make some cash and the drdo to get some international rep.
 

Crunchy

New Member
It's about the Brahmos - not the Prithvi

Vietnam has been looking for (land-/naval/air-based) modern anti-ship missiles for while.
The Brahmos is the prime candidate, but India needs to feel its' arsenal first. Deliveries to Vietnam can only start when production is running with surplus.
So some journalists/analyst came up with the idea that India should sell the Prithvi - more as a political symbolic act - to Vietnam.
Mean while Russia has sold/give the Shaddock to Vietnam as interim solution.
 

ROCK45

New Member
Modern weapons

Crunchy has Vietnam produced any of this oil offshore yet? What are a few of your countries export to pay for such weapons?

Do you know how many hours per year your Flanker pilots get? Do they ever train with other countries?

Besides China who may be or is a threat who else in the general region does Vietnam see as a threat?

Cambodia, Laos & Thailand- To be honest I know little about these governments and what ties to Vietnam they may have do they also have claims to the offshore oil?

Thanks
 

Crunchy

New Member
Crunchy has Vietnam produced any of this oil offshore yet? What are a few of your countries export to pay for such weapons?
Crude oil export has contribute in average ~ 20% of Vietnam's export in the last 15 years. The oil industry contributes ~ 25% of state budget.
Vung Tau province - home of the oil industry - has got a GDP per capita per year of 5000$ - national average is 1000$.
Domestic oil comsumption is growing fast so around 2015/18 VN will be a net importer.
Maybe by that time VN will send some expedtionary forces to prevent some bad guys from having oil ... eee I mean from having WMD. :D

The first flankers - 12 Su-27 - were paid 100% cash. The later - 4 Su-30 - 75% cash & 25% goods.
The warships are license production - so not that expensive.
That's the only I know.

Do you know how many hours per year your Flanker pilots get? Do they ever train with other countries?
I got some relatives living in Nha Trang - about 45 miles from Phan Rang AB, which is the home of the Su-27/30 & Su-22.
The only thing I can say: Vietnam is not a democracy & the VPAF does give a s* about flight restrictions & noise levels. The pilots seem to have alot of fun while scaring tourists & residents with low fly bys over the beaches. I witness it myself. :D

Training Air combat with other AFs? Currently no.

Besides China who may be or is a threat who else in the general region does Vietnam see as a threat? Cambodia, Laos & Thailand- To be honest I know little about these governments and what ties to Vietnam they may have do they also have claims to the offshore oil?
Cambodia has learnt it lesson not to question the border anymore. There are some Overseas Cambodian groups, who are still "fighting for democracy & human rights & self determination of Khmer Krom" - Khmer in the Mekong Delta. :rolleyes:
Not a single Western government takes those guys seriously - apart some Western backbencher politicians.
Laotians had always a good relationship with Vietnam - even with fast growing Thai & Chinese influence.
Malaysia/Singapore is one of the largest investor - money talks.
Phillipines buys large amounts of rice from Vietnam - love goes the stomach.
Thailand - arc enemy, well only on the soccer field and when it comes to foreign investors.
The more military "coup d'etat"s in Thailand - the more investors will choose VN. :p:

Thais & Cambodia have some minor disputs about some gas deposits. But their claims do not cross Vietnam's maritime claim.
Laos - landlocked country
Malaysia & Vietnam has cleared their claims & joint exploration - no problems anymore.
As you can see: It's only the Dragon, which claims over 80% of South China Sea. Vietnam's only source of real trouble. :rolleyes:
 
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John54

New Member
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0np6B33YM30"]YouTube - Brahmos Video[/ame]
---claims brahmos is world's fastest cruise missile

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR1WfWPZECo"]YouTube - THE TRUTH ABOUT INDIAN MISSILES[/ame]
---Indian missiles in general, looks like a lot of set backs in development.

http://specials.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/07video1.htm
---cool videos. Official says it is ready.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrxOUMEfKA4"]YouTube - Indian Army gets Brahmos Power[/ame]
---another good vid on Brahmos

http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?652161
---Jan 20, 2009 article, says Brahmos is Mach 5 missile
 

John54

New Member
Does anyone know the current production rate of the Brahmos?

Here ya go, Mr. Cruchy: :nutkick


India steps up production of Prithvi and BrahMos

12 Nov 2007, 0145 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit, TNN


NEW DELHI: With Pakistan rapidly moving towards enlarging its missile arsenal with China’s help, India is slowly but steadily stepping up production of Prithvi surface-to-surface ballistic missiles, as well as BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles.

Sources said facilities were now in place to produce around 20 Prithvi missiles every year, while the annual production rate of BrahMos missiles is geared towards touching 50 in the near future.:grab

In 2006-2007, for instance, Hyderabad-based defence PSU Bharat Dynamics Limited for the first time managed to produce 15 full-fledged Prithvi missiles and four training missiles, apart from 18 warheads, said sources.
While different Prithvi variants have strike ranges varying from 150-km to 350-km, the BrahMos missile developed with Russia can hit targets over 290-km away.

"Similar plans to step up production of the strategic missiles (700-km Agni-I and 2,000-km-plus Agni-II ballistic missiles) are in the pipeline," said a source.

While Army has had its 150-km Prithvi-I missiles for some years now, IAF and Navy operationalised their longer-range variants of the same missile recently.

Navy, for instance, is weaponising its Sukanya-class large patrol crafts with Prithvi’s ‘Dhanush’ variant, which has a strike range of 250-km to 350-km. IAF, in turn, has started moving its Prithvi-II missile squadrons from Hyderabad to some airbases closer to the western front.

As for the air-breathing BrahMos missiles, which fly at a speed of 2.8 Mach, Navy was the first service to equip its frontline warships like Rajput-class destroyers with their vertical launch systems. The Army, which already has missile groups to handle Prithvi, Agni-I and Agni-II, is now also operationalising BrahMos land-attack cruise missiles (LACMs) as its "precision strike weapon."

Work on BrahMos’ air-launched version for Sukhoi-30MKI multi-role fighters, however, had been hit by delays.

Consequently, this missile will be integrated with the naval IL-38 maritime patrol aircraft as the first step.

Incidentally, Pakistan tested a new air-launched 350-km range cruise missile, ‘Hatf-8’ or ‘Thunder’, a couple of months ago. Moreover, its ‘Babur’ cruise missile, said to be capable of carrying nuclear warheads to 500 km, is already on course for large-scale induction. Indian defence scientists, too, are working on a wide array of missile programmes, which interestingly also include submarine-launched versions of both Prithvi (K-15) and BrahMos missiles.

The Agni-III missile, with a 3,500-km strike range meant for China, will be ready by 2010 after a few more tests.

Then an advanced 5,000-km range Agni missile, with a third mini-stage being added to the two-stage Agni-III, is also on the anvil.

Similarly, work is also in progress to develop submarine-launched cruise and ballistic missiles under the ‘Sagarika’ project to complete India’s ‘nuclear triad’ — the ability to fire nuclear-tipped missiles from the air, land and sea.
Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2533850,prtpage-1.cms
 
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