IAF plans missile base near Pakistan border

[Bang-Bang]

The defence ministry will establish a huge Air Force base close to the international border in Rajasthan, moving aggressively to secure the country’s western frontiers. The 300-km range supersonic cruise missile BrahMos will be stored at this base, defence ministry sources said.

Rest Of the Article : http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1219153 .


Lets See How Pakistan Going to response this .

and i dont think they have any solution for brahmos ( i mean anti missile system )

Moved to missile/wmd forum. Please make sure to open threads in appropriate forums.

Warning: Do not flame the thread. Be calm, mature and rational while discussing the subject. We have a minimum deterrence towards India-Pakistan thread.

[nevidimka]

Originally Posted by Bang-Bang

The defence ministry will establish a huge Air Force base close to the international border in Rajasthan, moving aggressively to secure the country’s western frontiers. The 300-km range supersonic cruise missile BrahMos will be stored at this base, defence ministry sources said.

Rest Of the Article : http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?newsid=1219153 .


Lets See How Pakistan Going to response this .

and i dont think they have any solution for brahmos ( i mean anti missile system )

They'll just build an equivalent base storing hundreds of Babur's and other SRBM's. Or they could just aim all those SRBM's and babur's tipped with NUkes at the base to take it out in the event of war. Two can play the game.

[tphuang]

Originally Posted by nevidimka

They'll just build an equivalent base storing hundreds of Babur's and other SRBM's. Or they could just aim all those SRBM's and babur's tipped with NUkes at the base to take it out in the event of war. Two can play the game.

well in the long run, Pakistan can't afford to do this. India is just a lot stronger economically. Pakistan will bankrupt if they try to match that.

[Bang-Bang]

Originally Posted by tphuang

well in the long run, Pakistan can't afford to do this. India is just a lot stronger economically. Pakistan will bankrupt if they try to match that.

agree , i think missile base will take up to millions of pakistani rupees . which they cant afford . if they do that ...i think IMF will ask them ( am not sure ).

[dragonfire]

I guess India requires dedicated missile bases for the Multi-platform Brahmos missile and since the declared range is 300 kms it would only make sense for such deployment nearer to international borders, at 30K acres the base sounds very big too, am sure a fighter sqdn will also be deployed under Project Thukrana as per the report. It would be interesting to see the air force version of the brahmos being deployed on dedicated air strike platforms

[nevidimka]

So there is a land attack version of the Brahmos being developed? Regarding Pakistan, you say they cant afford, but that didnt stop them from buying expensive military hardwares like Submarines and AWCS. I dont see the situation with financial capability being an issue.

[abhaystgy]

Hey guys, I don't see any reason why Pakistanis can't afford to make a similar or better base than India. They get billions of dollars from US every years and IMF has also given a load of USD 10B. They are not going to use to for development. They will give half of the money to ISI to spread terrorism in India and another half to buy new machinery from US, China, Germany and France.

[Type59]

Originally Posted by tphuang

well in the long run, Pakistan can't afford to do this. India is just a lot stronger economically. Pakistan will bankrupt if they try to match that.

You need to look at Pakistan policy of "credible minimum deterrence", The military knows it cannot match Indian military in purchases thats why Pak has a first strike policy. Also Pakistan has good relations with many nations, China, Gulf states and many others, assistance is not far away.

On the economy last time, I looked the world is not doing to good.

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/1999_07-08/fzja99

Looking at other posts. Rediculous and untrue comments from some emotional members leads to threads being closed.

[dragonfire]

Originally Posted by nevidimka

So there is a land attack version of the Brahmos being developed?

Yeah the plans are to make Brahmos a missile to be used across all services in all models within the range paramaters. After all variants are fully developed there would be 4 Land Attack Brahmos missile variants - A Land launched Land Attack (already operational with the Army - inducted in 2007) a Ship Launched Land attack variant (already operational with the Navy) A Submarine Launched Land attack varaint (in testing phase) and an Air Launched land attack version (to be fitted on the Su-30MKIs, IL-38 and Tu-142s by 2012)

[SABRE]

Originally Posted by tphuang

well in the long run, Pakistan can't afford to do this. India is just a lot stronger economically. Pakistan will bankrupt if they try to match that.

There is no need to considering the size of Pakistan. Pakistan does not have to cover large distance of land to deploy missiles near Indian border.

Secondly Pakistan prefers to keep its nuclear weapons de-weaponized and un-deployed (nevertheless; the whole procedure only takes 15 mins). So no need to make a missile base near the border, instead use the existing ones. As for the tactical use of SRBMs and Cruise Missiles the again existing basis are enough and quite near the Indian border for their use.

Bringing missiles closer to Pakistani borders also gives Pakistan a chance at taking them out surgically before or during war time. If war takes place in 2010 PAF will have the capability to carryout such strikes on missile installations near the border, otherwise Babur and Ra'ad are already operatable.

Originally Posted by Bang-Bang

and i dont think they have any solution for brahmos ( i mean anti missile system )

Nopes. But neither does India have any solution for Babur (GLCM) and Ra'ad (ALCM) of Pakistan. So rather then taking "missile counter" as the solution Pakistan would take Prevention, Preemption or reaction as the solution to cruise missile attacks.

[Bang-Bang]

Originally Posted by SABRE

Bringing missiles closer to Pakistani borders also gives Pakistan a chance at taking them out surgically before or during war time. If war takes place in 2010 PAF will have the capability to carryout such strikes on missile installations near the border, otherwise Babur and Ra'ad are already operatable.

Dont you think in 2010 IAF will do the main damage to PAF's F16s , J17s . With Su-30's + PHALCON AWACS which will be the main advantage of IAF . i think india is also develpoing PRITHVI anti missile & anti ballistic missile system . And also india will Tests its AD-1 & AD2 in 2009 -2010 .

[SABRE]

Originally Posted by Bang-Bang

Dont you think in 2010 IAF will do the main damage to PAF's F16s , J17s . With Su-30's + PHALCON AWACS which will be the main advantage of IAF . i think india is also develpoing PRITHVI anti missile & anti ballistic missile system . And also india will Tests its AD-1 & AD2 in 2009 -2010 .

Nops.

Strictly speaking in the context of air power, the best chance IAF has against PAF, I believe, is in 2009. 2010 is when PAF will again start becoming significantly potent and by 2012 it will be significantly potent. Right now PAF only has 10 JF-17s and 46 F-16s (with 2 or 4 of them in USA for MLU). 2010 PAF will start inducting F-16 Block 52+C/D as well as MLUed F-16A/Bs capable of better BVR A2A strikes, better A2G and PGM strikes. Weapons like AIM-120C and JDAMs would be in service. About 20+ JF-17s capable of BVR, A2G and Precision strikes will be in service by 2010. 2012 PAF will have 50+ JF-17s and 70+ advance F-16s backed by Mirage-III & V ROSE II & III upgrade (upgrades include A2A refueling along with BVR strike capability). 3 IL-78 will be in service by the end of this year which will provide PAF capability to strike deep in Indian Territory. The F-16 will be equipped with CFTs so they’ll have longer range also. In modern times it is not the machine that kills but the weapons (not the F-16 that kills but the weapon it carries i.e. AIM-120C, AIM-9L/M, JDAMs etc) – in this context PAF’s F-16s and JF-17s (some Mirages and F-7PG as well) are being equipped with modern Avionics, EW and Weapon system to counter IAF Su-30MKI (nevertheless Su-30MKI will remain significant threat, but will be limited). In addition PAF is also purchasing 36 to 40 J-10s (FC-20s) from China to do the job. At least one squadron of J-10 might be active in 2012.

PHALCONs will be inducted in IAF from 2012 while PAF's 1st AWACs (SAAB ERIEYE) will be operation from 2009. In addition PAF is also purchasing Chinese AWACs (Pakistan Navy purchasing E2C Hawkeye but we haven't heard much on it since mid-2007). So by 2012 when IAF will have 1st Phalcon PAF will have about 3 to 5 active AWACS already in operation.
2012 point is where IAF and PAF would be significant challenge to each other. At the current point PAF’s A2G capabilities are quite strong but not the air superiority capabilities. Therefore mostly PAF would prefer to defend its airspace within its own territory while carrying out ground assault inside India preferably via Cruise Missiles (I came upon an article written by a former IAF fighter pilot who has said similar things).

Having said the above; the IAF also possesses (will possess even better capability in 2010-2012) similar threat to Pakistan’s air (& missile) basis. Only difference is that Pakistan will continue to keep its basis ambiguous while India will be openly developing missiles basis giving PAF idea where to hit.

Prithvi ABM will provide India with elate sense of security but ABMs have their own disadvantages. 1) They are quite expensive to defend entire city let alone a country, 2) their probability of striking the missiles remains 65%, 3) not effective against Cruise Missiles, 4) Not much effective against MIRVS, 5) Vulnerable to surgical strikes, and 6) In the case of Pakistan-India the response time for ABM is very much shorter compared to USSR/Russia-USA due to our geographic proximity.

These are also perhaps the reasons why Pakistan and China have not yet showed any interest in ABM programs of their own.

2012 is IAF-PAF stalemate point (though PAF will remain inferior quantitatively).

[Bang-Bang]

PHALCONs will be inducted in IAF from 2012 while PAF's 1st AWACs (SAAB ERIEYE) will be operation from 2009. In addition PAF is also purchasing Chinese AWACs (Pakistan Navy purchasing E2C Hawkeye but we haven't heard much on it since mid-2007). So by 2012 when IAF will have 1st Phalcon PAF will have about 3 to 5 active AWACS already in operation.
2012 point is where IAF and PAF would be significant challenge to each other. At the current point PAF’s A2G capabilities are quite strong but not the air superiority capabilities. Therefore mostly PAF would prefer to defend its airspace within its own territory while carrying out ground assault inside India preferably via Cruise Missiles (I came upon an article written by a former IAF fighter pilot who has said similar things).

Might I request you use "quote" options instead of "code" options for quoting someone. I have edited your post myself this time but next use quotes.

No sir first phalcon will be handel to india in april 2009 , rest 2 of them in 2012. And as far as i know india has about 4 Squadron are using SU30's

This is what Su-30 carry with her :

For surface-strike missions, the Su-30MKI can be armed with air-to-surface missiles like the Kh-25MPThe 9Kh-25MP is an anti-radar missile, with a top speed of Mach 2.5 and a range of 40 km).

Kh-29L/T (The Kh-29L is the laser-guided variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 30 km. The Kh-29T is the TV-guided variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 12 km.) (up to six)

Kh-31A/P (The Kh-31A2/P2 air-to-surface missiles are reportedly on order from Russia. The Kh-31A2 is the anti-ship variant and has a top speed of Mach 3+ and a range of 70 km. The Kh-31P2 is the anti-radar variant and has a top speed of Mach 3+ and a range of 200 km.) (up to six)

and Kh-59/59M(The Kh-59 is the anti-radar variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 50 km. The Kh-59M is the anti-ship variant and has a top speed of Mach 0.8 and a range of 200 km.) (up to two),
as well as

KAB-500KR/KAB-500OD (up to six) and

KAB-1500KR/KAB-1500L (up to three)

& high-precision bombs which can be fitted with either laser or television guidance systems. And Over 70 versions of also guided and unguided weapon stores may be employed, which allows the aircraft to fly the most diverse tactical missions. The Su-30 can also carry a tactical nuclear payload.

&

air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat
R-60MK(The MK variant has a head-on range of 12 km and a tail-on of 8 km, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 and uses proportional navigation for guidance.)

and

R-73RDM2 (up to six)

, the medium-range

R-27RE1/TE1 (The R-27TE1 has a range of 130 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5, while the R-27RE1 has a range of 70 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5.)(up to six/two)

and

the long-range R-77RVV-AE(the R-77RVV-AE has a range of 100 km, with the seeker locking on at around 20 km, and a maximum speed of Mach 4. At short range, it can engage targets manoeuvring at up to 12g.) (up to six).

-----------

And IAF MIRAGE 2000

There are total 49 mirage's in IAF (42 'H' and 7 'TH').

(H; Single seater, multi-role aircraft.
TH; Dual seater, trainer.)

It has Nine external hard points can carry the

air-to-air missiles

Super 530D ( The missile has a claimed maximum interception altitude of 80,000 feet (24,400 metres), with a snap-up capability of 40,000 feet (12,200 metres), and a snap-down capability to targets at 200 feet (60 metres). The missile has a range of 40 km and a maximum speed of Mach 5.)

and
Magic-II(The missile has a range of 10 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2+)

and

the air-to-surface missiles

AS-30L(The missile has a range of 12 km and a speed of Mach 1.5, with an estimated flight time to maximum range being 22 seconds.)

and
Matra ARMAT( The missile has a speed of Mach 0.9, with a minimum range of 15 km and a maximum range of 120 km.)

plus a variety of other guided & un-guided ordnance. The aircraft is also capable of carrying a tactical nuclear payload. IAF Mirage 2000 THs have used the Paveway II PGMs in Kargil.

-----

There are

4 crew of Ilyushin-Beriev IL-76MD / IL-78MKI Candid [Gajraj]

110 Antonov An-32 Cline [Sutlej]

3 crew of HAL HS.748M Avro

PAF really lacks in transport crafts (as far as i know )

[SABRE]

Originally Posted by Bang-Bang

No sir first phalcon will be handel to india in april 2009 , rest 2 of them in 2012.

The 1st AWACS are usually for training purpose. They aren't much of a force multiplier. PAF already has its 1st air craft from SAAB without proper AWACS capability. Last I read was that 1st Phalcon is to be delivered in 2012. If its 2009 then IAF and PAF are moving at par on the AWACs.

And as far as i know india has about 4 Squadron are using SU30's

This is what Su-30 carry with her :

For surface-strike missions, the Su-30MKI can be armed with air-to-surface missiles like the Kh-25MPThe 9Kh-25MP is an anti-radar missile, with a top speed of Mach 2.5 and a range of 40 km).

Kh-29L/T (The Kh-29L is the laser-guided variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 30 km. The Kh-29T is the TV-guided variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 12 km.) (up to six)

Kh-31A/P (The Kh-31A2/P2 air-to-surface missiles are reportedly on order from Russia. The Kh-31A2 is the anti-ship variant and has a top speed of Mach 3+ and a range of 70 km. The Kh-31P2 is the anti-radar variant and has a top speed of Mach 3+ and a range of 200 km.) (up to six)

and Kh-59/59M(The Kh-59 is the anti-radar variant and has a top speed of Mach 1.0, with a range of 50 km. The Kh-59M is the anti-ship variant and has a top speed of Mach 0.8 and a range of 200 km.) (up to two),
as well as

KAB-500KR/KAB-500OD (up to six) and

KAB-1500KR/KAB-1500L (up to three)

& high-precision bombs which can be fitted with either laser or television guidance systems. And Over 70 versions of also guided and unguided weapon stores may be employed, which allows the aircraft to fly the most diverse tactical missions. The Su-30 can also carry a tactical nuclear payload.

&

air-to-air missiles, like the close-combat
R-60MK(The MK variant has a head-on range of 12 km and a tail-on of 8 km, with a maximum speed of Mach 2.5 and uses proportional navigation for guidance.)

and

R-73RDM2 (up to six)

, the medium-range

R-27RE1/TE1 (The R-27TE1 has a range of 130 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5, while the R-27RE1 has a range of 70 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5.)(up to six/two)

and

the long-range R-77RVV-AE(the R-77RVV-AE has a range of 100 km, with the seeker locking on at around 20 km, and a maximum speed of Mach 4. At short range, it can engage targets manoeuvring at up to 12g.) (up to six).

-----------

And IAF MIRAGE 2000

There are total 49 mirage's in IAF (42 'H' and 7 'TH').

(H; Single seater, multi-role aircraft.
TH; Dual seater, trainer.)

It has Nine external hard points can carry the

air-to-air missiles

Super 530D ( The missile has a claimed maximum interception altitude of 80,000 feet (24,400 metres), with a snap-up capability of 40,000 feet (12,200 metres), and a snap-down capability to targets at 200 feet (60 metres). The missile has a range of 40 km and a maximum speed of Mach 5.)

and
Magic-II(The missile has a range of 10 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2+)

and

the air-to-surface missiles

AS-30L(The missile has a range of 12 km and a speed of Mach 1.5, with an estimated flight time to maximum range being 22 seconds.)

and
Matra ARMAT( The missile has a speed of Mach 0.9, with a minimum range of 15 km and a maximum range of 120 km.)

plus a variety of other guided & un-guided ordnance. The aircraft is also capable of carrying a tactical nuclear payload. IAF Mirage 2000 THs have used the Paveway II PGMs in Kargil.

-----

There are

4 crew of Ilyushin-Beriev IL-76MD / IL-78MKI Candid [Gajraj]

110 Antonov An-32 Cline [Sutlej]

3 crew of HAL HS.748M Avro

Do add sources for all this information as per our rules. Although above is mostly correct our members would want visit the source of information for their own future citations.

I am not disputing the IAF's aircraft capabilties. I am merely pointing out PAF's modernization. Now not going into technical details and debate, what I am saying is that IAF is in much better position then PAF at this moment (in 2009). PAF's modernization begans in 2009 and will be effective by 2012. In 2012 PAF will be able significantly challange IAF, though IAF will remain "quantitatively" superior. That is how it has always been.

Coming to the topic: PAF will have better chance of surgical strikes on IAF missile installations in 2012 then right now (not disputing IAF's capability to counter any PAF offensive) and I don't think missile basis will be built over night. They'll take their own time. & remember we are just having a discussion, its not like there is going to be any such exchange of strikes between IAF and PAF in 2012.

PAF really lacks in transport crafts (as far as i know )

PAF is buying more C-130Js as well as Mi-17 helos from Russia.

[hellfire]

Originally Posted by SABRE

In 2012 PAF will be able significantly challange IAF, though IAF will remain "quantitatively" superior. That is how it has always been.

well SU30MKI itself will be in more numbers then PAF F16s and Jf17s,and the SU30mki is a airsuperiority fighter,and technolgicaly superior to what PAF have ,be it F16 block 52+,even if the SU30 does not have a AESA rador,the sheer size of the rador makes its quite a challenge for PAF.
so not only does the IAF make up in number or like u said "quantitatively" superior,they have the tactical edge.