Warfare at High Altitudes

[ajay_ijn]

How do soldiers manage to fight at Tall Mountains of thousands of feet high.
War becomes extremely difficult to fight in those heights.
Many Techs,Tactics and Strategy does not work in those heights.
Common Problems Faced by any Military at altitudes of 15000 feet or greater.

1.Logistical Nightmare:It is very difficut to transport any kind of equipment into mountains.
2.Soldiers Health: It is becoz of the bad climate more casualities occur rather than the actual fighting.
3.Airpower cannot be used upto its potential: Fighters,Helicopters do not work upto their potential.Weapons do not perform upto their potential
Accuracy of weapons Systems decreases.

4.Limited Fire Support Assets:The most decisive thing in any war would be armored vehicles. Even Jeeps cannot go in this moutains forget MBT's.
Limited amount of Artillery and Airpower can be used.

There are many other Tactical Limitations when fighting in this Moutaineous region.

What is the technology solution to improve soldiers health in these tall mountains??

What would be the ideal Solutions to these problems???

I think Highly trained special forces who are completely used to such tall mountains and Asssult Helicopter which can operate effectively at these heights would be one of the solutions.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Ajay, altitude is not the reason airpower is not used in "mountainous warfare". The highest mountain in the world is only about 25,000 feet high, most military fighters have a ceiling of around 50,000 feet... What is more likely is a lack of accurate targetting data, given the low levels of visibility in such terrain. Satellite guided munitions might improve this a bit, but very few air forces employ such weapons at present.

Very few helicopters are able to operate close to Mountains at extreme altitudes. Gremlin can probably discuss this more indepth, but as I understand, most helicopters have very low maximum altitudes, and are badly affected by the winds found near the mountains at high altitude.

Mountain (and even arctic) warfare is as you guessed, primarily light infantry based warfare. Some light tracked "snow mobile" type vehicles are employed to help carry ammunition, crew served weapons (HMG's, light cannons, mortars, ATGW's, MANPADS etc) and other supplies, but the bulk of the fighting is normally done on foot. Some places might allow you to operate light armoured vehicles such as the German "Weisel", but that's about it...

 

[Gremlin29]

Mountain flying is very very dangerous for any aircraft. There are peculiar weather/wind phenomena associated with mountains. AD is quite right in regards to operational ceilings for helo's. Generally, that's around 15,000 ft MSL. Of course the service ceiling of any aircraft is determined by one simple factor, vertical velocity. Universally it's accepted that a vertical climb of 500 feet per minute is the minimum acceptable level of performance for ANY aircraft. Once you can no longer meet or exceed that level of performance you have hit your service ceiling but I digress. At those altitudes controlability becomes a serious issue at low airspeeds which is of course how helicopters terminate flight. Sloppy controls with marginal control authority and very very limited power raises the old pucker factor right to the top of the scale, been there done that.

I think modern warfare being what it is, there's not much need for extreme altitude warfare fighting capabilities. What important objectives could be defended or required in such mountains anyway?

In WWII the Germans had what is in my estimation the best of the best elite troops in their Gebirgsjager formations. Those are Heer Gebirgs, not the scummy SS Gebirgs who were famous for murdering civilians and were Gebirgs in name only. Within the Gebirgsjager Divisions were the Alpine specialists known as the Hochsgebirgsjager. These men were in my estimation the most elite troops of WWII. They were expert mountaineer's in every sense and carried out fantastic operations that are almost impossible to believe. I know the modern German army still has Gebirgsjager formations and I'd imagine they are a pretty tough bunch. But their mission is very speciallized and not often needed so I suspect that little is known in mainstream military discussions.

 

[Aussie Digger]

From what I understand the Austrians, Swiss and Italian forces also maintain very capable Alpine troops. The Australian Army also operates a Mountain/Arctic Warfare School, though it's usually only specwarries who attend the course. The chances of Australian's fighting in the snow at altitude are about as likely as it snowing in Australia at the moment... (It's the middle of Summer here guys...)

 

[Pathfinder-X]

I know a former combat engineer from the Austrian Pioneer troops. Maybe I'll get him to explain it from a solider's point of view on this topic. It's getting real late here in Canada so I'll post the rest of my comment tomorrow.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Actually I wanted to discuss this topic becoz the Indian Military faces Major Problems in the tallest mountains (Himalayas) over 15000 feet.
Infact They fight in the worlds Tallest Battlefield the Siachen Glacier.

It can be called as One of the worlds most inhospitable Battlefield Conditions,much worse than what Germans had to face in Russia 1940.

1.Soldiers have climb to peaks as tall as 17000 feet for patrolling where they have to carry Oxygen cylinders becoz of less Oxygen.They face many other health disorders.
2.In Such Places tempearture reduces at as much as -60 degree celcius in Winter.
3.At the Height of 10,000 feet,Any vehicle's engine compltely stops working becoz of insufficient oxygen,Even if it works,it will need more 75% more fuel and that too at 25% less efficiency.
4. The Soldiers Completely cut off with outside world during winter.All Supplies are stored in summer.
5. Food Becomes Rock hard,Difficult to consume.

And in the Airforce too Planes and Helicopters Face problems

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article39.html

The severe degradation of aircraft and weapon performance is difficult to completely appreciate. No aircraft has yet been designed to operate in a Kargil-like environment. At high altitudes, a crucial factor in aircraft performance is the reserve of power available, which, for the MiG and Mirage fleets, was a strong point in their favor. In comparison, the Fairchild A-10, widely quoted as being the ideal platform, would have been a misfit. It is widely (and incorrectly) stated that using Mach 2 aircraft would not produce results; however, a Mach 2 capability does not necessarily imply an inability to operate at lower speeds; further, all air-to-ground attack speeds are approximately the same (750-950 km/h) for fixed-wing aircraft.

Due to the very different attributes of the atmosphere at that altitude, even weapons do not perform as per sea-level specifications. Variations in air temperature and density, altering drag indices and a host of other factors (which have never been calculated by any manufacturer for this type of altitude) cause weapons to go off their mark; for the same reasons, normally reliable computerised weapon aiming devices give inaccurate results.

In the plains, a 1000-pounder bomb landing 25 yards away from the target would still severely disable, if not flatten, it. In the mountains, however, a miss of a few yards would be as good as the proverbial mile, due to the undulating terrain and masking effects. In addition, due to the variation in elevation the "miss" would be greatly magnified in the linear dimension, further exaggerating the "inaccuracy" of the weapon/delivery. While this would lead to apparent inaccuracies in weapon delivery, there is, paradoxically, a need for pinpoint accuracy in conditions where that very attribute is severely degraded by the factors mentioned above.

 

[Gremlin29]

I guess the point of my earlier post was that it's been pretty well established a long time ago that:

1. The best mountain troops are indiginous to mountainous terrain. They have a physiology that allow's them to work at much higher altitudes than a person from the lowlands.
2. Soldiers that are indiginous to mountainous area's are not only physically adapted to working in extreme environments, they are familiar with weather patterns, and the difficulties of doing even the most basic tasks in such extreme conditions.
3. Because of the extreme nature of the mountains themselves, they don't make particular decissive points of interest in the modern environment.

I guess if India has routinely had troops fighting at such high altitudes, they probably have as good a handle on the difficulties of operating in the high mountains as they could have.

 

[VICTORA1]

Gentlemen,

Please be realistic here. Second world war is long gone----as much as they want to show, the swiss alpine troops, the US rangers or marine, the austrians or the australians-----they may train for high altitude climbing but none train for high altitude combat per say.

Is it prejudice that I see over here or what----none of our esteemed writers mentioned anything about the indian pakistani troops who have been having a go at it for the last 15 plus years at siachin glacier---15000 feet plus warfare ------if that doesnot bring high altitude expertise in warfare, [Mod edit:Red aRRow: Refrain from racializing the discussion or you will get booted.]

Their training wasn't worth a diddley when it came to tracking the enemy in the karakorum ranges.

Ajay---indeed the best troops for high altitude warfare are indeed indian and pakistani troops. With a first hand experience of defying death at 20000 feet altitude day in and day out for close to 15 years, the men from both the sides proved their metal a thousand times over. Nobody, nobody comes close. At least not these boys----the chinese do.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well, Victoria, the Australian SASR "White boys" (and NZSAS) comprehensively out-fought soldiers and fighters well used to the conditions found in Mountainous regions in Afganistan in 2001-2003. I also didn't refer to high altitude climbing in my earlier post.

I specifically referred to "combat training". Australian specwarries of course do train in high-altitude climbing, they also train at the Australian Army mountain warfare training school. This is specific "combat training" in surviving and fighting in mountainous and arctic conditions. The SASR operators in Afganistan proved their superiority in this environment over people supposedly more "used" to this environment...

 

[ajay_ijn]

3. Because of the extreme nature of the mountains themselves, they don't make particular decissive points of interest in the modern environment.

But they are decisive in case of India.

Well, Victoria, the Australian SASR "White boys" (and NZSAS) comprehensively out-fought soldiers and fighters well used to the conditions found in Mountainous regions in Afganistan in 2001-2003. I also didn't refer to high altitude climbing in my earlier post.

But what about in very high altitudes of atleast 15000 feet where temp falls much below than zero deg.
Soldiers even are forced to have oxygen Cylinders.
No Good Communication,No Mobility,No Fire Support.
Its Exactly like fighting a War In Antarctica.

1. The best mountain troops are indiginous to mountainous terrain. They have a physiology that allow's them to work at much higher altitudes than a person from the lowlands.
2. Soldiers that are indiginous to mountainous area's are not only physically adapted to working in extreme environments, they are familiar with weather patterns, and the difficulties of doing even the most basic tasks in such extreme conditions.

I agree with u,But No body lives at Such a High Altitudes where these soldiers go out and Fight.
Soldier Alone can not go their.
They need Supplies,Fire Support which they never get adequately.

 

[Awang se]

if u look back through history, mountain areas always were use as a base for anti-government guerillas. we can see this in afghanistan, checnya, south america and everywhere else on the world.

anyone remember dien bien phu? that is one of the logistic miracle of 20th century. the NVA were moving and positioning their artilleries and supports equipment what was considered to be a no go terrain for such a system. like the french dien bien phu defenders always said "it is not how many artillery pieces they have that surprised us, it is where they firing it from".

 

[Pathfinder-X]

if u look back through history, mountain areas always were use as a base for anti-government guerillas. we can see this in afghanistan, checnya, south america and everywhere else on the world.

anyone remember dien bien phu? that is one of the logistic miracle of 20th century. the NVA were moving and positioning their artilleries and supports equipment what was considered to be a no go terrain for such a system. like the french dien bien phu defenders always said "it is not how many artillery pieces they have that surprised us, it is where they firing it from".

The reason mountainous regions are popular location for guerillas is due to the fact that the government troops will have a hard time conducting search and destroy operations. The mountains also makes it ideal for hide-and-seek style skirmishes. In the cases you mentioned, pure military force will not accomplish the job rooting out guerillas. You must win the hearts and minds of locals first in order to eliminate the breeding ground for guerilla recruits.

 

[Aussie Digger]

The reason mountainous regions are popular location for guerillas is due to the fact that the government troops will have a hard time conducting search and destroy operations. The mountains also makes it ideal for hide-and-seek style skirmishes. In the cases you mentioned, pure military force will not accomplish the job rooting out guerillas. You must win the hearts and minds of locals first in order to eliminate the breeding ground for guerilla recruits.

This high ground is still a tactically useful place to be too...

 

[kashifshahzad]

:coffee As far as i know is that the highest altitude that now two countries are fighting is between Paksiatan and India.There is a glacier situated between these two countries,where the soldies form both the countries remain there to defend for their countries.I is nearly impossible to send artillery,ammunition and food supply to these soldiers.
As far as i know the food and all these kinds of items which they need reach a base camp which is mainly situated at the base of the mountain at a safe place so first supply reach there whrough helicopters and jeeps if possible.
I saw a TV Play in which a soldier was fighting at that altitude after killing all the invaders.The rescue team reached him very late so when he opened his eyes in the hospital he could not move his legs and arms caz they were cut down after the exposure to intence temprature.So his whole life he went on his wooden legs.
I think the news about the highest fighting ground is true caz between Pakistan and India there are highest mountain ranges like Himalayas,Karakuram md Hindukush and also mountains like godwinaustin(k-2) are situated in these ranges.
If i am wrong any one can correct me:coffee

 

[limaj]

Martin Sugarman, an American journalist visited the Pakistani part of Siachen Sector in 1995/96 and wrote a book 'War Above the Clouds'. The book gives a good insight into the way operations are conducted at high altitudes and the problems of high altitude warfare. I believe it is out of print. Maybe someone can locate a copy somewhere. It is complete with lots of stunning photographs. It has a chapter or a section called the 'Hand of God', which makes a fascinating reading. It shows how soldiers operating at limits of endurance come to believe in miracles and actually narrate witnessing one.

 

[Pendekar]

It shows how soldiers operating at limits of endurance come to believe in miracles and actually narrate witnessing one.

maybe they halucinating because of the extreme tempreture. or maybe they never realize their true potential until then.

 

[limaj]

maybe they halucinating because of the extreme tempreture. or maybe they never realize their true potential until then.

I would not call it halucinating, as this particular incident was witnessed by a number of persons and all of them could not be hallucinating about the same thing. My comments related to persons functioning at the limits of their endurance. Just surviving at high altitudes takes a person to the limit of his/her endurance. Imagine the strength that a person requires in addition for conducting military operation like attack, where you are weighed down further with weapon, ammunition and equipment. The strength that person comes up with in such situations is nothing short of miracle. Similarly at times a natural phenomnon may also look like a miracle.

 

[agent-0011]

i assume india is quite an expert in moutain warfare since it fought a war with china in the himalayas back in 62

 

[Pendekar]

and india was soundly defeated by China. but it was back then, when India faced an army with vast experiance from WW2 and korean war. today, with missiles and such, it might be different.

i would really like to know the level of readiness for Indian army during the Sino-Indian border war. were india prepared for it? or were india being caught with their pants down.

 

[limaj]

i assume india is quite an expert in moutain warfare since it fought a war with china in the himalayas back in 62

India has extensive experience of warfare at high altitudes as it is maintaining a sizeable militray presence in Siachen since 1983.