RAAF Tacticts and Strategy against TNI AU or Indonesian Air Force?

[FlyingZieten]

I know the scenario has very low possibilities of happening because of improved mutual relation between the countries and the Indonesian seems to prefer to deal with the Malaysian first. But what happen for instance if Indonesia decided to attack Malaysia and Australia as one of the commonwealth member had to indirectly support Malaysia and wage limited war with Indonesia?

What tactics do the RAAF planed for this kind of scenario?

Indonesian Air Force in its current strength I believe will not posses any great or disruptive challenge to RAAF, considering the types of aircraft owned. I'm not trying to look down at Indonesian here because me myself has an Indonesian descendant (I'm a Dutch) they're really a great warrior but what I want to do here is to have a nice and neutral opinion.

And consequently for the above case I have decided to strengthen the Indonesian Air Force little bit in the second scenario so it will be balanced with RAAF. Of course I'm not trying to equip Indonesian AIr Force with F-35 or F-22 or PAK FA but with just an additional planes of the current types and of course an adequate armament.

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario One

Same as in the real world without any additional plane or armament:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario Alternatives

Same as in the real world:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this will be the changes:

-1x full complement Sukhoi Su-27SKM Squadron (24 planes in total)
-Additional 1x full complement second hand F-16C/D Block 52 (24 planes in total also)
-All existing A-4 and A-5 are replaced with F-16C/D Block 52 Also.
-Half complement of Mikoyan Mig-29SMT Squadron (12 planes in total)

All of the aircraft will have chance to carry R-77 and R-73 but for F-16 there's still no AMRAAM.

For ground facilities:

-Improved Early Warning radar in Southern Island (Java, Bali, Timor and Flores) with an equivalent technology of Soviets Radar in 1970s and early 80s
-Additional SA-2 and SA-3 SAM facilities scattered in Sulawesi and Java.
-S-300 guarding main city such as Jakarta, Surabaya and Makassar
-Buk Missile System in Hasannudin (Makassar) and Halim Perdanakusuma (Jakarta

Navies TNI AL and Army TNI AD have the same strength as in the real word. Possible deployment of Kopassus to raid Australian major facilities.

Royal Australian Air Force strength is the same as in the real world.

I'm actually currently writing a novel regarding a conflict in South-East Asia and for that book I want to know more if the Indonesian Air Force -- both in the first and second scenario has a chance to inflict a damage to Australia.

Thank you for the supports and help given.

 

[lopez]

I know the scenario has very low possibilities of happening because of improved mutual relation between the countries and the Indonesian seems to prefer to deal with the Malaysian first. But what happen for instance if Indonesia decided to attack Malaysia and Australia as one of the commonwealth member had to indirectly support Malaysia and wage limited war with Indonesia?

What tactics do the RAAF planed for this kind of scenario?

Indonesian Air Force in its current strength I believe will not posses any great or disruptive challenge to RAAF, considering the types of aircraft owned. I'm not trying to look down at Indonesian here because me myself has an Indonesian descendant (I'm a Dutch) they're really a great warrior but what I want to do here is to have a nice and neutral opinion.

And consequently for the above case I have decided to strengthen the Indonesian Air Force little bit in the second scenario so it will be balanced with RAAF. Of course I'm not trying to equip Indonesian AIr Force with F-35 or F-22 or PAK FA but with just an additional planes of the current types and of course an adequate armament.

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario One

Same as in the real world without any additional plane or armament:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario Alternatives

Same as in the real world:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this will be the changes:

-1x full complement Sukhoi Su-27SKM Squadron (24 planes in total)
-Additional 1x full complement second hand F-16C/D Block 52 (24 planes in total also)
-All existing A-4 and A-5 are replaced with F-16C/D Block 52 Also.
-Half complement of Mikoyan Mig-29SMT Squadron (12 planes in total)

All of the aircraft will have chance to carry R-77 and R-73 but for F-16 there's still no AMRAAM.

For ground facilities:

-Improved Early Warning radar in Southern Island (Java, Bali, Timor and Flores) with an equivalent technology of Soviets Radar in 1970s and early 80s
-Additional SA-2 and SA-3 SAM facilities scattered in Sulawesi and Java.
-S-300 guarding main city such as Jakarta, Surabaya and Makassar
-Buk Missile System in Hasannudin (Makassar) and Halim Perdanakusuma (Jakarta

Navies TNI AL and Army TNI AD have the same strength as in the real word. Possible deployment of Kopassus to raid Australian major facilities.

Royal Australian Air Force strength is the same as in the real world.

I'm actually currently writing a novel regarding a conflict in South-East Asia and for that book I want to know more if the Indonesian Air Force -- both in the first and second scenario has a chance to inflict a damage to Australia.

Thank you for the supports and help given.

your changes make this very unfair (compared to reality) but in reality Indonesia would have to be suicidal to commence an attack on australia.

Are you aware of the the jorn radar network?
which allows australia to be aware of any movements by air and naval units In the region. if you are aware of it the official radar range does not represent its true capabilities
Are you still allowing the f111s to be involved in combat?
during the tensions caused by Australia's involvement in interfet australia had f111s on stand by to destroy the Indonesians communication network and various other undisclosed crucial targets on java if things turned sour. they also had fa/18s ready to intercept any attempt to bomb australia. another key target would be the Indonesians submarines. Australia's long term plan would be to activate bare bases in the northern territory and west australia using them for a bombing campaign aimed at removing the Indonesians capabilities to threaten australia. basically annihilating all Indonesian military infrastructure within range.

if this conflict develops further australia would use it special forces to train fund and arm the various Independence movements through out the archipelago e.g. gam in aceh.

do you have any other questions?

 

[Ananda]

Just for Fun

I know the scenario has very low possibilities of happening because of improved mutual relation between the countries and the Indonesian seems to prefer to deal with the Malaysian first. But what happen for instance if Indonesia decided to attack Malaysia and Australia as one of the commonwealth member had to indirectly support Malaysia and wage limited war with Indonesia?


-1x full complement Sukhoi Su-27SKM Squadron (24 planes in total)
-Additional 1x full complement second hand F-16C/D Block 52 (24 planes in total also)
-All existing A-4 and A-5 are replaced with F-16C/D Block 52 Also.
-Half complement of Mikoyan Mig-29SMT Squadron (12 planes in total)

All of the aircraft will have chance to carry R-77 and R-73 but for F-16 there's still no AMRAAM.

For ground facilities:

-Improved Early Warning radar in Southern Island (Java, Bali, Timor and Flores) with an equivalent technology of Soviets Radar in 1970s and early 80s
-Additional SA-2 and SA-3 SAM facilities scattered in Sulawesi and Java.
-S-300 guarding main city such as Jakarta, Surabaya and Makassar
-Buk Missile System in Hasannudin (Makassar) and Halim Perdanakusuma (Jakarta

Ooo...well, just for fun;

With all do respect with the force compossition you proposed, how do we can threat Australia ? That kind of force composition will not even can significantly threatening Malaysia.

Second, the only time in our history when our Air Force can show considerable threat to Australia was in the period of 1961 - 1966, at the time we have significant (relative to regional conditions at that particullar time) long range deep penetrations force in the formed of TU-16 KS.
Moreover those's the hight of cold war, and all of our strike force, air superiority, and area defence was supplied vigourously by USSR and its' allies. In the sense if Southeast Asia become hot, we have steady supplied to conducts 'hot' operations. Even that I must say only 'barely' and only nasionalistics fanatics like Soekarno will even dare to come out with the idea

You proposed we threat Malysia and Australia with half of our Air Force using US made F 16 ?? and only the Russian made Flankers have beyond visual missiles ??
Again even your proposed force compositions is stronger then what our airfoce have at this moment, but not significantly enough to conduct out of the border incursions. That force you proposed still 'below' minimum deterences that our Air Force need to conduct effective patroling force for this 3000 km long archipelagos.

In short to conduct significant threat to Malaysia (then it's means also Singapore) and bring Australia to the brawls...well it need the force at least (in my oppinions) 25 full squadrons of Flankers equivalent (400 units if we put 16 fighters per sq) with enough latest armed/missiles supplies. Supporting with another 25 sq of J-10 equivalents as bomb trucks.
This enable them at least a third of the sq's to conduct out of the border penetrations, the other third conducts air defences, while the other third on the ground doing maintanances.

Afterall this is south east asia, any threat to Malaysia, Singapore even Australia will bring USofA to the count. In sense the situations must be swift enough, and have overwhelmingly forces to subdues 'three' different countries in two front as soon as possible.

This also will have to be supported with local industries that can provide/produces internally the figthers and the weapons. In sense wil not depends from anyones elses on most of the supplied.
In short, we talk about capabillities that even todays CHINA not really self sufficient yet (perhaps another five to ten years )

Such a tall order that I don't think any regional countries even Australia can conduct now. In sense the balances of power in the region already is such that no countries in the region can effectively..militarily threatening each others.
Any countries in the regions should do now just to invest on 'minimum deterences' capabilities...and that's enough... since no countries in the region posses overwhelmingly power to each other.

Back to your scenario...well the only way we can significantly threatening Australia in the future if we let (say China) to uses our Islands and bases when opposing Australia.

Sorry not try to be lecturing, but really your force compossitions in the scenarios is much,much inadequate to threaten countries like Malaysia and Australia. Seems you forgot to calculate the need for our air forces to guard the archipelago's air space at the same time conductiong across the border incursions.

 

[lopez]

Does this remind anyone else even slightly of the book Tomorrow When The War Began?

 

[lopez]

Ooo...well, just for fun;

With all do respect with the force compossition you proposed, how do we can threat Australia ? That kind of force composition will not even can significantly threatening Malaysia.

Second, the only time in our history when our Air Force can show considerable threat to Australia was in the period of 1961 - 1966, at the time we have significant (relative to regional conditions at that particullar time) long range deep penetrations force in the formed of TU-16 KS.
Moreover those's the hight of cold war, and all of our strike force, air superiority, and area defence was supplied vigourously by USSR and its' allies. In the sense if Southeast Asia become hot, we have steady supplied to conducts 'hot' operations. Even that I must say only 'barely' and only nasionalistics fanatics like Soekarno will even dare to come out with the idea

You proposed we threat Malysia and Australia with half of our Air Force using US made F 16 ?? and only the Russian made Flankers have beyond visual missiles ??
Again even your proposed force compositions is stronger then what our airfoce have at this moment, but not significantly enough to conduct out of the border incursions. That force you proposed still 'below' minimum deterences that our Air Force need to conduct effective patroling force for this 3000 km long archipelagos.

In short to conduct significant threat to Malaysia (then it's means also Singapore) and bring Australia to the brawls...well it need the force at least (in my oppinions) 25 full squadrons of Flankers equivalent (400 units if we put 16 fighters per sq) with enough latest armed/missiles supplies. Supporting with another 25 sq of J-10 equivalents as bomb trucks.
This enable them at least a third of the sq's to conduct out of the border penetrations, the other third conducts air defences, while the other third on the ground doing maintanances.

Afterall this is south east asia, any threat to Malaysia, Singapore even Australia will bring USofA to the count. In sense the situations must be swift enough, and have overwhelmingly forces to subdues 'three' different countries in two front as soon as possible.

This also will have to be supported with local industries that can provide/produces internally the figthers and the weapons. In sense wil not depends from anyones elses on most of the supplied.
In short, we talk about capabillities that even todays CHINA not really self sufficient yet (perhaps another five to ten years )

Such a tall order that I don't think any regional countries even Australia can conduct now. In sense the balances of power in the region already is such that no countries in the region can effectively..militarily threatening each others.
Any countries in the regions should do now just to invest on 'minimum deterences' capabilities...and that's enough... since no countries in the region posses overwhelmingly power to each other.

Back to your scenario...well the only way we can significantly threatening Australia in the future if we let (say China) to uses our Islands and bases when opposing Australia.

Sorry not try to be lecturing, but really your force compossitions in the scenarios is much,much inadequate to threaten countries like Malaysia and Australia. Seems you forgot to calculate the need for our air forces to guard the archipelago's air space at the same time conductiong across the border incursions.

would Indonesia ever seriously consider allowing china to use its air bases?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I know the scenario has very low possibilities of happening because of improved mutual relation between the countries and the Indonesian seems to prefer to deal with the Malaysian first. But what happen for instance if Indonesia decided to attack Malaysia and Australia as one of the commonwealth member had to indirectly support Malaysia and wage limited war with Indonesia?

What tactics do the RAAF planed for this kind of scenario?

Indonesian Air Force in its current strength I believe will not posses any great or disruptive challenge to RAAF, considering the types of aircraft owned. I'm not trying to look down at Indonesian here because me myself has an Indonesian descendant (I'm a Dutch) they're really a great warrior but what I want to do here is to have a nice and neutral opinion.

And consequently for the above case I have decided to strengthen the Indonesian Air Force little bit in the second scenario so it will be balanced with RAAF. Of course I'm not trying to equip Indonesian AIr Force with F-35 or F-22 or PAK FA but with just an additional planes of the current types and of course an adequate armament.

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario One

Same as in the real world without any additional plane or armament:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Indonesian Air Force Strength Scenario Alternatives

Same as in the real world:

Indonesian National Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this will be the changes:

-1x full complement Sukhoi Su-27SKM Squadron (24 planes in total)
-Additional 1x full complement second hand F-16C/D Block 52 (24 planes in total also)
-All existing A-4 and A-5 are replaced with F-16C/D Block 52 Also.
-Half complement of Mikoyan Mig-29SMT Squadron (12 planes in total)

All of the aircraft will have chance to carry R-77 and R-73 but for F-16 there's still no AMRAAM.

For ground facilities:

-Improved Early Warning radar in Southern Island (Java, Bali, Timor and Flores) with an equivalent technology of Soviets Radar in 1970s and early 80s
-Additional SA-2 and SA-3 SAM facilities scattered in Sulawesi and Java.
-S-300 guarding main city such as Jakarta, Surabaya and Makassar
-Buk Missile System in Hasannudin (Makassar) and Halim Perdanakusuma (Jakarta

Navies TNI AL and Army TNI AD have the same strength as in the real word. Possible deployment of Kopassus to raid Australian major facilities.

Royal Australian Air Force strength is the same as in the real world.

I'm actually currently writing a novel regarding a conflict in South-East Asia and for that book I want to know more if the Indonesian Air Force -- both in the first and second scenario has a chance to inflict a damage to Australia.

Thank you for the supports and help given.

First of all Australia and Indonesia are de-facto allies.

Second of all that TNI-AU orbat is HIGHLY unrealistic. The RAAF would not stand by while its capability edge was eroded to that extent by a regional power. At the VERY least the RAAF would have acquired a ARM capability to counter the increase in GBAD.

Third of all an attack on Malaysia would mean the ADF would be working with partners.

So when is this conflict taking place? 2012? This second? Is the F/A-18F operational? Is the Wedgetail fleet operational? Or is it this orbat as we type? Is vigilare operational? Its kind of hard to wargame without knowing the parameters...

Well anyway, its the ADF's doctrine to pre-empt. Thus as soon as the ADF was certain the TNI was about to initiate hostilities the RAAF would act. In general terms you would see multiple strike packages attacking C3I installations and TNI-AU facilities throughout Indonesia with offensive counter air sweeps in order to gain air superiority.

The ADF holds many significant advantages over the TNI-AU which would lead to RAAF air superiority over most of Indonesia within days:

1) C4ISTAR. The ADF has invested billions in increasing long range sensor capability, communications and information management. The RAAF will have a much clearer picture of the battle-space, even without Wedgetail, which alone is a decisive advantage.

2) Mass. The RAAF outnumbers the TNI-AU, significantly when we include the Malaysian air force.

3) Quality Kit. The RAAF has better missiles (AIM-132 and AIM-120C are both better than their Russian counterparts), platforms (F/A-18C is definitely a match for an SU-27), avionics (radar EW ect) sensors & comms.

4) Quality people.

Thus the RAAF will dominate the air battle and the GBAD systems can be engaged from with stand off weapons. One way or the other. Then C3I is fair game.

TNI command will be blind and dumb before their Malaysian offensive gets under way.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Such a tall order that I don't think any regional countries even Australia can conduct now. In sense the balances of power in the region already is such that no countries in the region can effectively..militarily threatening each others.
Any countries in the regions should do now just to invest on 'minimum deterences' capabilities...and that's enough... since no countries in the region posses overwhelmingly power to each other.

In any case all of us are ALLIES. The tertiary strategic objective of last ADF white paper (and the two before that) is the common defence of South East Asia, especially Indonesia. We are far more likely to be fighting alongside the Indonesians than against them.

Back to your scenario...well the only way we can significantly threatening Australia in the future if we let (say China) to uses our Islands and bases when opposing Australia.

This is Australia's great strategic fear. The only way anyone could really threaten Australia proper is if a great power had naval bases in the Archipelago. While Indonesia is on "our side" the ADF can employ a doctrine of standoff engagement, using naval forces and air power to engage an enemy on the north side of the Indonesian archipelago without any real threat to the continent.

Canberra would look on that development as a very, very serious situation requiring serious action. Thankfully Chinese domination/hegemony is not in Indonesia's interest, as then Jakarta would not only be facing an Australia that will be arming quickly but an adversarial relationship with the US. China is no where near powerful enough to defend Indonesia from Australia alone, forget about the USAF or USN based in Aus. Then there are the economic implications. Australia is Indonesia's largest source of foreign aid AFAIK. There was a $1 billion loan last year.

Canberra is doing everything it can to bring Indonesia within its "sphere of influence" or at least preventing Jakarta from falling into someone else's so its geographical barrier remains intact. This is mainly through aid grants and promised military cooperation. IIRC in 2004 Canberra & Jakarta signed a security agreement that, amongst other things, committed both nations to protect the territorial integrity of the other, from foreign and domestic enemies. Thus, so far that seems to be happening.

 

[Ananda]

would Indonesia ever seriously consider allowing china to use its air bases?

I don't see any remotely possibility on that. Afterall for majority of Indonesian, the chinese phobia outstrip any western phobia. 1998 racial riots show that, and that was directed to Indonesian Chinese which majority off them loyal to Indonesia as nations.

Indonesia try to have good relationship with China today, but who in the world doesn't. However kouwtowing to China ?? Not in the present pyscologic thinking of majority Indonesian.

 

[lopez]

I don't see any remotely possibility on that. Afterall for majority of Indonesian, the chinese phobia outstrip any western phobia. 1998 racial riots show that, and that was directed to Indonesian Chinese which majority off them loyal to Indonesia as nations.

Indonesia try to have good relationship with China today, but who in the world doesn't. However kouwtowing to China ?? Not in the present pyscologic thinking of majority Indonesian.

That was more of a rhetorical question demonstrating the unlikeliness of the proposition.

 

[bren122]

it is easy to forget the antipathy towards Australia engendered by our interventions against Indonesia during Konfrontasi and in East Timor; also our relationship with PNG precludes Indonesian raids into PNG territory against West Irian rebels. plus alliances do not always rely on the approval of the populace, otherwise we probably wouldn't be Indonesia's ally at the moment.
any Indonesian attack on Australia will take the form of individual and small group raiders against Australian mining and infrastructure assets in the Kimberley and Pilbara and in the Territory, perhaps even as far as northern South Australia, western Queensland and the Gascoyne region of WA; also submarine attacks on offshore oil and gas platforms on the North West Shelf. it would be difficult for Australia to justify retaliation on any sort of significant scale under those circumstances. a likely Australian response would be the use of the Collins class submarines to interdict Indonesian naval forces within their home islands. in that case RAAF assets might be used to attack Indonesian ASW assets. most RAAF assets, in this scenario, would be used on interdiction support for the RAN and tactical support of the Army.
an attempt by PLA assets to utilise Indonesia (more likely Burma or Cambodia) as forward bases would actually draw India further East- perhaps even into a strategic alliance with Australia (probably) and Singapore, Thailand and Malaysia (likely). this would be problematic for China as most of its imports and a fair proportion of its trade comes through the Straits of Malacca which could be effectively closed to them. the only effective remedy would be either to back down or initiate general warfare. as China does not have a substantial amphibious capability this would mean a general southern push from the Himalayas, to keep pressure on India and draw its resources away from South East Asia, to Viet Nam. a deep push would expose a great many faults in the PLA, from logistic services to training methods. numbers would tell eventually, but the cost of a southern invasion in human terms would be literally in the millions- all this without considering US, Japanese and Korean responses. in this scenario, where China has forward bases in Indonesia, RAAF assets would be deployed to follow-up SLBM attacks by the Collins submarines on airfields and port facilities; an interdiction force (probably one squadron of P-3s in support of the Armidale PBs and reserve infantry) would be used to intercept raiders and much of the ADFs assets would be deployed into Thailand and Malaysia to counter PLA initiatives elsewhere. the Collins submarines would likely be deployed to screen any southern movements out of China into the South China Sea with some air support from F-111 or Superhornets and P-3s based out of PNG; though likely American involvement would see three (at least) carrier battle groups in that area. it would be likely that one infantry or commando battalion would be deployed to PNG to bolster their forces, however it is likely by this stage that Indonesian military capabilities would have been seriously eroded to the point of immobility and these bolstering assets would take the form of reservists- East Timor would probably be left to its own devices though a reserve battalion could be deployed there.
it should be noted that were China to actually attempt to make significant use of Cambodia, Burma or Indonesia (very unlikely but to address the scenario), these nations, as part of ASEAN, would be subject to intense diplomatic efforts from other members, even to the point of outright bribes.

 

[Bonza]

RAAF assets would be deployed to follow-up SLBM attacks by the Collins submarines on airfields and port facilities

Erm...ballistic missiles on a Collins?

 

[bren122]

sorry- meant cruise missiles- got my acronyms wrong.

 

[Amanuensis]

New man on the block

Greetings people.

I've just joined this forum after stumbling across this thread during a Google Search. I too am a writer, per se'.

I'm working on a 'Australia/Indonesia' story at present as well. Its a fictional work set in the near future and based around a conflict over Timor. It is not intended to end up as a war in the generally accepted concept of what a war is. There will be clashes of arms, and indeed, I was working on a RAAF vs TNI - AU clash over the Arafura sea when I went looking for weapon details for the Indonesian Air Force.

This thread is quite informative. I've read it through several times and agree with all the opinions. But, being a writer with the licence to create drama where none exists is accepted with pleasure. Australia's isolation does tend to limit Australia's ability to exersise its Military muscle without taking our forces to such places as the Gulf or Southern Europe. So, what choices did I have? A war with New Zealand.. hardly.. New Guinea.. ridiculous, so that leaves only our next nearest neighbour, Indonesia. I have used writers licence to expand the Indonesian Air forces capability a little. One example is that they have a few more operational F-16's than in reality. Their navy has recieved the same treatment. I've used their platform types, just expanded the numbers a little and increased their readiness and capability factors.

The story actually began as a 'prequel' to a series of stories already written. As with most writers who do a series of stories featuring the same characters, I did not want to simply let my 'main Character' fade away with the completion of the series. I decided to expand on the referrences I made in the previous stories about his military service. One thing led to another and now I'm about 70,000 words into a new story and doing the research needed to give the story credibility.

So, on to the reason I'm here. What AAM's is the TBI - AU using? I've found vague refferences to Sparrow semi-active homers and heat seakers (Type unknown). I'm guessing they would be AIM-9M Sidewinders or similar. I'd really like to get a more advanced non-US heatseaker or radar guided AAM onto their aircraft to add a 'surprise' for the RAAF crews when they engage. Any ideas people? Remember, it only has to be possible, not probable. I'll write the (possbly fictional) details of how it came to be in the story.

If anyone is interested in liasing with be about terminology, 'mil-speak' jargon or just to discuss anything military, by all means, get in contact. Contrary views are a great way to grow new ideas and expand horizons. I am also an avid 'Harpoon' naval simulation player for those who are also. Its a handy way to 'fight the wars' and record the results which I can then write into the stories, ala Tom Clancy and Larry Bond.

For anyone interested, I am the owner and moderator of the Harpoon WW2 website and forum and have a comprehensive WW2 database there.

HarpoonHQWW2 : World War Two Database for H3 ANW

My e-mail and yahoo are
[email protected]

I'm looking forward to a good and long term relationship with this forum and its members.

Cheers and best wishes all

Mike Deegan AKA Amanuensis (Its latin for a 'scribe' or story teller)

 

[Amanuensis]

Re: RAAF tactics and strategy against TNI

G'day people.

I'm a newbie on the forum, (as if you couldn't tell) and am enjoying this thread immensly. I was reseaching RAAF/TNI capabilities when I stumbled across this site. I must say, its so refreshing to see such a multi-national contingent having such a free and open discussion.

I am impressed.

The subject is dear to my heart as I'm writing a book (fictional) about just such a scenario. I do not ever believe a scenario such as this thread is possible as many of the posters have aluded to. My only goal was to have Australia involved in a conflict that could be conducted from our homeland. That severely limits who the opponents can be. Australia isn't in the 'power-projection' business as our military forces' acronym suggests, ADF, Australian Defence Forces. We do possess limited ability to conduct off-shore military operations, and it was to this end, I chose the subject matter for the story. As a previous poster suggested, his hypothetical case where Indonesia has slightly more of the current platforms than is the case in reality was also the path I decided to follow. This is more a case of author's licence rather than any sort of possibility I believe may or may not exist. I simply wanted to, 'even the odds', so to speak, to tax the limitations of both sides and give possible readers a story where the end is always in doubt. Having one side or the other do a 'Desert Storm' (all over before it hits the headlines) on their oppenent would tend to make a very short story indeed.

I have written half a dozen other novels, albeit in a series that follows the adventures of a few characters through a series of events and adventures. But with that series completed, I found I have, as have many authors before me, fallen in love with my characters. I did not want them to fade away with the completion of the last book. So, I decided, a prequel was the way to extend the life of at least one of my characters. And that comrades, is how this story came to be.

I look forward to following the progress of this thread and any others I may stumble across here that will give me insights and ideas as to how I should let the tale unfold.

Oh, while I remember, and I do understand if there is reluctance, would any one be interested in liasing with me on some military dialogue? I'm not after anything classified, just some basic stuff to add some realism in a few scenes. All I can offer at this stage is, a first look at a future best seller. <Grin>

I am still working my way through the forum and its multitude of incredible topics and will limit my posts until I become more familiar with how things are done.

Thanks for reading and keep up the fantastic work.

I now return you to your viewing pleasure.

Cheers

Mike

 

[Todjaeger]

sorry- meant cruise missiles- got my acronyms wrong.

I assume by cruise missiles, one is referring to Tomahawks, correct? If that is the case, then no, a Collins is not equipped to fire them either. While they certainly could be carried, a Collins does not have the control systems to use Tomahawks. A Collins could perhaps use Harpoon to engage in land attack missions, depending on whether the onboard control systems will interface with land-attack versions of the Harpoon.

-Cheers

 

[bren122]

i thought we were spending a small fortune on acquiring them?

 

[Todjaeger]

i thought we were spending a small fortune on acquiring them?

Not for the Collins-class SSK AFAIK. TLAM is expected planned for use aboard the Collins replacement submarine, the Anzac follow-on frigate and the AWD I believe. They should start entering in approximately 5 years, at the earliest.

ADF standoff weaponry at this point consists of the AGM-142 Bullpup and AGM-84 Harpoon missiles.

-Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

I'm working on a 'Australia/Indonesia' story at present as well. Its a fictional work set in the near future and based around a conflict over Timor. It is not intended to end up as a war in the generally accepted concept of what a war is. There will be clashes of arms, and indeed, I was working on a RAAF vs TNI - AU clash over the Arafura sea when I went looking for weapon details for the Indonesian Air Force.

This thread is quite informative. I've read it through several times and agree with all the opinions. But, being a writer with the licence to create drama where none exists is accepted with pleasure. Australia's isolation does tend to limit Australia's ability to exersise its Military muscle without taking our forces to such places as the Gulf or Southern Europe. So, what choices did I have? A war with New Zealand.. hardly.. New Guinea.. ridiculous, so that leaves only our next nearest neighbour, Indonesia. I have used writers licence to expand the Indonesian Air forces capability a little. One example is that they have a few more operational F-16's than in reality. Their navy has recieved the same treatment. I've used their platform types, just expanded the numbers a little and increased their readiness and capability factors.

The story actually began as a 'prequel' to a series of stories already written. As with most writers who do a series of stories featuring the same characters, I did not want to simply let my 'main Character' fade away with the completion of the series. I decided to expand on the referrences I made in the previous stories about his military service. One thing led to another and now I'm about 70,000 words into a new story and doing the research needed to give the story credibility.

So, on to the reason I'm here. What AAM's is the TBI - AU using? I've found vague refferences to Sparrow semi-active homers and heat seakers (Type unknown). I'm guessing they would be AIM-9M Sidewinders or similar. I'd really like to get a more advanced non-US heatseaker or radar guided AAM onto their aircraft to add a 'surprise' for the RAAF crews when they engage. Any ideas people? Remember, it only has to be possible, not probable. I'll write the (possbly fictional) details of how it came to be in the story.

If anyone is interested in liasing with be about terminology, 'mil-speak' jargon or just to discuss anything military, by all means, get in contact. Contrary views are a great way to grow new ideas and expand horizons. I am also an avid 'Harpoon' naval simulation player for those who are also. Its a handy way to 'fight the wars' and record the results which I can then write into the stories, ala Tom Clancy and Larry Bond.

For anyone interested, I am the owner and moderator of the Harpoon WW2 website and forum and have a comprehensive WW2 database there.

HarpoonHQWW2 : World War Two Database for H3 ANW

My e-mail and yahoo are
[email protected]

I'm looking forward to a good and long term relationship with this forum and its members.

Cheers and best wishes all

Mike Deegan AKA Amanuensis (Its latin for a 'scribe' or story teller)

Hi Amanuensis,

In the real world, the Indonesians operate 12x F-16A Block 15 fighter aircraft.

These are armed with the AIM-9J and AIM-9P Sidewinder missiles (assuming these weapons haven't reached their "life of type") and have been photographed carrying the AGM-65 Maverick air to ground missile. The only other known armament is the internal 20mm cannon and SUU-20 practice bomb dispensers (target marking bombs).

They possess no beyond visual range missile capability, no targetting pod (meaning they are daylight only capable) fighters with limited ground attack capability.

The TNI-AU was under embargo by the USA from 1999 until 2005, meaning that F-16 fighter aircraft were grounded more often than not and aircraft had to be "cannibalised" in order to keep some examples flying. It is generally accepted Indonesia rarely had more than 6x F-16 fighters available during that time. The embargo has of course been lifted and Indonesia has not requested any known upgrades.

However other operators of F-16's, the Turkish Air Force in particular provide upgrade services for F-16 users. Pakistan has procured an upgrade package for it's F-16's (similar configuration at the current time to Indonesia's F-16's) and such an upgrade could conceivably be conducted by TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) as it would at least be politically acceptable (ie: fellow Muslims) to the Indonesians.

Another option is the reasonably large numbers of modernised second-hand F-16 variants that are available for sale from Countries in Europe including the Netherlands and Belgium. Any such purchase would have to be cleared by the US State Department (due to end-user licence certification issues) but using "writers licence" I am certain this would be possible.

Chile for example has recently purchased 28x of these aircraft in real life and another 20 - 30 aircraft at least are available for purchase. These aircraft are already updated and possess AMRAAM missile capability and provision for advanced sensors, electronic warfare suites and other modern weapon systems. They would need a structural life enhancement project - SLEP, but Chile and Jordan are 2 countries that have benefited recently from such aircraft and have expanded their respective fleets relatively cheaply with quite modern and capable aircraft. It is not beyond the realm of possibility that other nations could do likewise in quite a short time frame. Being an existing F-16 operator would also help quicken this process...

To comprise a modern fighter capability, the existing TNI-AU (not TMI-AU...) F-16's, would require an extensive upgrade. Such an upgrade would require the following:

1. A sensor upgrade. Either an upgrade or replacement of the extant APG-66 radar system to a modern APG-68 standard (including provision of beyond visual range modes and data-link capability to employ AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles). A targetting pod system such as the Sniper XR pod (Litening is out, because of the Israeli connection) for air to ground targetting duties would also be required.

2. Provision of MIDS-LVT Link 16 tactical data-link, to provide "network centric" capability.

3. Provision of a modern avionics suite including full colour liquid crystal displays, a moving map capability, enhanced processors, a modernised combat system and upgraded electronic warfare components including radar warning receivers/missile approach warning systems, counter-measure dispensers (ALE-47 for flare and chaff as a minimum) and onboard electronic jamming capability.

4. A weapons upgrade. The TNI-AU Sidewinders are a VERY old model. An upgrade to the AIM-9X model, the AIM-132 ASRAAM (integration work was conducted on the F-16 by the USAF in the late 90's and could provide an interesting fictional perspective - TNI-AU F-16 fighters armed with the exact same weapon as the RAAF F/A-18 fighters) or the IRIS-T within visual range missile would definitely be required for these F-16's to pose a credible threat to the RAAF fighters .

There are other options (Israeli Python IV/V or South African T-DARTER and A-DARTER) but both weapons have a distinct Israeli connection, which would be politically unacceptable, despite being quite capable systems. The AIM-9X, AIM-132 ASRAAM or Diehl BGT IRIS-T short ranged infra-red missiles therefore are the most likely modern "WVR" missiles for any F-16 upgrade.

IRIST-T :

Diehl BGT Defence | Air-to-air guided missiles

AIM-132 -

Asraam missile, air to air missile system by MBDA - MATRA

AIM-9X -

Raytheon Company: AIM-9X

To pose a serious threat, the TNI-AU F-16's would also require a "beyond visual range" (BVR) radar guided missile. This basically means AIM-120 AMRAAM with the F-16. There is a problem though, the RAAF operates the most modern available variants of the AIM-120C, so at best the TNI-AU could only gain "parity" with the RAAF with this weapon.

The other options would be the MBDA designed MICA- EM BVR missile or the Meteor ram-jet BVR missile. The MICA is considered inferior to the latest AMRAAM models by most people around the place and even the main user - The French armed forces, are acquiring the Meteor ram-jet missile as their main BVR weapon, so operating MICA-EM, would be expensive to integrate onto the F-16 platform and result in less overall capability than the much more easily added AMRAAM BVR capability.

A better option therefore would be for the TNI-AU to integrate the Meteor ram-jet powered AAM currently being designed, tested and manufactured by MBDA. Assuming it's the future and Meteor is already in-service would provide a level of capability that RAAF unless it too upgraded to this weapon, could not actually match.

Meteor missiles, air defence system developped by MBDA

Of course, no country in a position such as Australia is going to allow it's capability over-match to be eroded in such a manner, but if you need to have a surprise beyond the TNI-AU actually presenting as a threat to the RAAF, then an F-16 upgraded to an equivalent Block 52+ status and armed with IRIS-T and Meteor air to air missiles, at a basic fighter capability level would do it.

There is of course much to air combat that does not involve the particular fighter, but I sense you won't really refer to those aspects. Do bear in mind the extensive distances between Australia and Indonesia and how this is relevant to the prospect of short ranged fighters "battling it out" over the Timor sea.

Best of luck...

 

[Aussie Digger]

I assume by cruise missiles, one is referring to Tomahawks, correct? If that is the case, then no, a Collins is not equipped to fire them either. While they certainly could be carried, a Collins does not have the control systems to use Tomahawks. A Collins could perhaps use Harpoon to engage in land attack missions, depending on whether the onboard control systems will interface with land-attack versions of the Harpoon.

-Cheers

It is my understanding that Collins has been equipped with Harpoon Block II capability, but it hasn't been widely discussed by the Government. For the purposes of a piece of fiction, it would be a perfectly convenient option for Australian forces, because it is the case already, IIRC...

It doesn't pay to upset the neighbours too much apparently. The cruise missile announcement in the Defence White Paper (it is only a guess that Tactom will be chosen, there are other possibilities) already has the Indonesians upset and threatening all sorts of capability acquisitions to "return the favour".

Using the acquisition of Tactical Tomahawk Block IV cruise missiles (or similar - naval JASSM-ER perhaps?) as an excuse to develop Indonesian military capabilities is a very realistic proposition, IMHO, though the fiction would occur with the Indonesian ability to actually fund such military development.

I would suggest that these acquisitions would also mostly be symbolic (such as the fleet of 10 SU-27/SU-30 aircraft) and an attempt at "keeping up with the Joneses" rather than a serious attempt at developing capable military options.

The introduction of Tactom or similar by the RAN could easily see a competing acquisition of Yakhont or similar missile systems made by Indonesia in real life though and would certainly not affect the required "suspension of disbelief" necessary for fictional tales...