Iranian response to a limited airstrike against nuclear facilities and infrastructure

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With an attack on Iran imminent. I am interested to know how forum members would respond if they were commander in chief of the Iranian armed forces. Both tactical and strategic considerations should be taken into account, with diplomacy and geopolitics to be considered secondarily. I want to mainly discuss military options.
 

PCShogun

New Member
If I were the Iranian commander I would realize that a direct confrontation with the west would not go well. I would strive to continue defying the West in the hopes that they, not us, would fire the initial shots, providing Iran forces the political high ground to conduct operations in our own defense.

Prior to the initiation of hostilities, I would greatly increase my support for insurgent forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Pakistan. I would mass forces on the Afghanistan border, making it clear that I would invade in the event of an attack upon our soil. The Basij would be used to defend Iran and as follow on forces for this invasion. I do not expect a western land force to step foot upon Iranian soil, at least initially, so I feel confident that these forces can provide security while regulars from the IRIA man defensive batteries. IRIAF forces would begin armed air patrols of this border with the mission of shooting down drones detected in the area.

Western forces, already being drawn down, would be forced to vacate forward bases to reinforce the cities. This would provide initial morale boosts to insurgent forces already in Afghanistan. Reinforcement avenues into Afghanistan would challenge the supply requirements of NATO forces engaged in a full scale war in this region.

I would order my Kilo's far into the Arabia Sea and Indian Ocean. Should open hostilities commence, their mission would be to attack enemy supply ships en-route to Pakistani ports in the event Pakistan reopened the supply channels through their territory, or to attack U.S. flagged tankers. Blocking the strait would threaten the world supply of oil and forcing other nations to placed military assets into the region to protect their tankers. By attacking tankers outside the Gulf, the war is contained to U.S. and other allied nations without threat to neutral or friendly nations. Mines would be placed near Iranian ports and offshore oil facilities to offer some defense against attack by sea.

Naval Surface forces would be placed in protected harbors with minimal crew, using its defenses to augment land defenses. Western Naval assets would be too powerful to allow their operation in open water. Missile boats would be used for dash attacks from smaller facilities and hidden coves.

Missile based air defenses would be moved to protect coastal facilities with air assets moved to bases further inland to provide more reaction time and to support the Afghanistan invasion. Land based Anti-Ship missiles would be used to harass U.S. and allied forces in the Gulf, and against CLEARLY identified tankers flagged to these countries. The point here is NOT to threaten the world oil supply transiting the gulf or damage to the oil facilities. Only to threaten and destroy those assets belonging to actual participants in attacks upon Iran.

If attacked directly, Iran could achieve initial air superiority in Afghanistan to support a massive armor ground assault against Zanarij, Farah, Shindand, and Herat. Emphasis would be the capture and control of the main highway leading to Khandahar City and then moving North toward Kabul, with the further goal of isolating NATO from any Pakistani supply lines. Insurgent forces would be encouraged to harass NATO and Afghan forces in the mountain regions in the center and North; again with emphasis on disrupting supply conduits. Long range missile attacks would be initiated against supply centers within the country, but NOT against Arab neighbors, unless they provide basis for attacking forces. I would try to limit these attacks against these military bases, and not the oil facilities there.

To place further pressure on Western troops, threats would be made against Turkmenistan, while offering concessions to Pakistan for remaining neutral.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
If I were the Iranian commander I would realize that a direct confrontation with the west would not go well. I would strive to continue defying the West in the hopes that they, not us, would fire the initial shots, providing Iran forces the political high ground to conduct operations in our own defense.

Prior to the initiation of hostilities, I would greatly increase my support for insurgent forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, and Pakistan. I would mass forces on the Afghanistan border, making it clear that I would invade in the event of an attack upon our soil. The Basij would be used to defend Iran and as follow on forces for this invasion. I do not expect a western land force to step foot upon Iranian soil, at least initially, so I feel confident that these forces can provide security while regulars from the IRIA man defensive batteries. IRIAF forces would begin armed air patrols of this border with the mission of shooting down drones detected in the area.

Western forces, already being drawn down, would be forced to vacate forward bases to reinforce the cities. This would provide initial morale boosts to insurgent forces already in Afghanistan. Reinforcement avenues into Afghanistan would challenge the supply requirements of NATO forces engaged in a full scale war in this region.
Increasing support for insurgent forces attacking Pakistan could be very counterproductive. You cannot control those forces and if they appear too strong will push Pakistan back toward the US. Worse, if you are caught at it Pakistan may even feel a need to ally themselves with the US for protection.
I would order my Kilo's far into the Arabia Sea and Indian Ocean. Should open hostilities commence, their mission would be to attack enemy supply ships en-route to Pakistani ports in the event Pakistan reopened the supply channels through their territory, or to attack U.S. flagged tankers. Blocking the strait would threaten the world supply of oil and forcing other nations to placed military assets into the region to protect their tankers. By attacking tankers outside the Gulf, the war is contained to U.S. and other allied nations without threat to neutral or friendly nations. Mines would be placed near Iranian ports and offshore oil facilities to offer some defense against attack by sea.
Confirming target identity before attack will have to be done visually using the periscope or binoculars, requiring your submarines to spend too much time at shallow depths or on the surface where they are too vulnerable to detection from the air. The majority of the tanker traffic crossing the Indian Ocean is carrying oil to China, with India in 2nd place, both countries you don’t want to annoy by accident.

A better choice would be to attack tankers entering the Gulf of Aden or travelling south along the cost of Africa as these all would be carrying oil to Europe or the US.
Naval Surface forces would be placed in protected harbors with minimal crew, using its defenses to augment land defenses. Western Naval assets would be too powerful to allow their operation in open water. Missile boats would be used for dash attacks from smaller facilities and hidden coves.
I assume by ‘Missile boats’ you are referring those small boats Iran has advertised with multiple rocket launchers mounted above the pilot house. The ships mounting the larger anti-ship missiles are probably being continuously tracked and targeted for immediate destruction if the shooting starts. So remove the missiles from the launchers and replace them with mockups, then convert the missiles into truck mounted coastal artillery.

Also, it is quite likely that Iran will have vessels with the anti-piracy patrols when the shooting starts. They should be carefully instructed to immediately declare themselves neutral and request to be allowed to continue their duty to suppress piracy (and displacing toward India to be clear of the conflict zone) with teams of international observers on board to guarantee their good behavior. Those vessels are not capable enough to do more than die in an uninspiring fashion, but by remaining on patrol suppressing pirates they could generate favorable press, especially in south-east Asia, and drive the US planners nuts.
Missile based air defenses would be moved to protect coastal facilities with air assets moved to bases further inland to provide more reaction time and to support the Afghanistan invasion. Land based Anti-Ship missiles would be used to harass U.S. and allied forces in the Gulf, and against CLEARLY identified tankers flagged to these countries. The point here is NOT to threaten the world oil supply transiting the gulf or damage to the oil facilities. Only to threaten and destroy those assets belonging to actual participants in attacks upon Iran.
Moving the missile based air defenses to the coast just makes them easier for the allied forces to destroy. Instead move them inland along with the air assets to protect each other. If the air assets are of any value the allied forces planners will want to destroy them and you can force a battle inside your ground based air defense zone.
If attacked directly, Iran could achieve initial air superiority in Afghanistan to support a massive armor ground assault against Zanarij, Farah, Shindand, and Herat. Emphasis would be the capture and control of the main highway leading to Khandahar City and then moving North toward Kabul, with the further goal of isolating NATO from any Pakistani supply lines. Insurgent forces would be encouraged to harass NATO and Afghan forces in the mountain regions in the center and North; again with emphasis on disrupting supply conduits. Long range missile attacks would be initiated against supply centers within the country, but NOT against Arab neighbors, unless they provide basis for attacking forces. I would try to limit these attacks against these military bases, and not the oil facilities there.
Even if the US has only 2 carriers in the Gulf, any Iranian air superiority will be fleeting unless you can get Pakistan to join you (extremely unlikely). After that your invasion force becomes a target rich environment.

You are also talking about running logistics (which Iran may not have available) to support an armored assault through at least 500 miles of hostile countryside using at most 2 or 3 unpaved roads. The local insurgents are anti-foreign invader, not anti-US, Sunni, and loath Persians. They will probably be happier to ambush your supply columns than the Allied ones.

Finally, your plan seems to be to surround and force the surrender of the US forces in Afghanistan. That would be very unwise, not the least because if you win the effects will be to inflame rather than cow the US public. However, you are far more likely to end up in a situation like Germany after the Battle of the Bulge with your own forces cut off from supply, surrounded by fresh US forces, and forced to surrender. Better to leave a way out and encourage a rapid retreat than a fight to the death.
To place further pressure on Western troops, threats would be made against Turkmenistan, while offering concessions to Pakistan for remaining neutral.
Given current poor relations between Iran and Turkmenistan, and the defensive nature of the geography, threats to them would probably be counterproductive.
 

PCShogun

New Member
A good assessment.

My plan, WOULD be to isolate NATO forces from Pakistan, where a large portion of supplies could be brought in. I am not convinced that in event of a direct conflict with Iranian Army forces, sufficient supplies could be brought in to keep the forces supplied. However, as you point out, the Infrastructure of Afghanistan's roads may not be suitable to keep ANY army supplied for long. Grabbing the major highway would be critical in keeping supplies moving. Iran has a long border with Afghanistan and the terrain here is much flatter than that experienced in the north.

Naval forces would NOT be able to last long against U.S. forces. I feel that using them to augment existing defenses would be beneficial. Since Iran has insufficient radar installations to cover the entire country, detecting and engaging enemy air assets would need to be done near the coast, if possible. yes, this brings them within range of naval surface combatants, which is something I had not remembered. My idea with naval conflict is to NOT threaten the flow of oil through the gulf. Doing that will further alienate Iran to the rest of the world and justify, to an extent, the attack against her nuclear programs.

Iranian boats to declare neutral? That would be interesting and shows good "Out of the box" thinking on your part.

Turkmenistan's military is poor, even by the standards of that region of the world, being poorly maintained and funded. It does, however, have a defense treaty with Russia. Again, something I had forgotten. Other means would need to be employed to "Encourage" them to slow down NATO supplies via those corridors.

Iran has a few hundred operational aircraft. For NATO to keep combat air forces flying in a country with limited fuel imports would be difficult. NATO could not commit attack forces to bomb Iranian facilities, naval forces, infrastructure, AND keep a strong force over Afghanistan. Since Iran essentially concedes loss of air superiority over its territory, it moves her forces to the east extend the range of inbound attackers, and supports her engagement of forces in Afghanistan. Iran has essentially no worries of a land invasion of her own soil early in the conflict. My thoughts were that Mujahideen forces would fight alongside anyone working to destroy the west. Supporting forces within Pakistan may be problematic, as you point out, and the whole strategy of supporting the indigenous forces was simply to give NATO something else to worry about; ie small units able to attack everywhere would draw more forces away for defense of remote areas and away from main areas of attack, and weaken government control of more territory.

Still, Iran doesn't have a lot of options. It can sit within her borders and get pounded, take an offense stance and invade somewhere that her army can be brought to bear, or simply peeve off the entire world by closing the strait, attacking oil loading facilities, and sinking tankers at random. Causing an American defeat would greatly damage her resolve to interfere in the region in the future. Even if the invasion failed, large numbers of NATO casualties would still cause unrest in Europe and America; those who feel it unworthy for their citizens to die in this part of the world.
 

Beatmaster

New Member
So far the scenarios given are pretty good, but in the defense of Iran there are a few key things that should be considered.

If this war is going to be started then the US will probably resort to shock and awe T-Hawk missile surgical attacks to take out first priority targets, while the 2 aircraft carriers will make sure that the skies are being kept clean.
However what most people forget is that Iran's key installations will be hardened and some goes for most of their most of their radar and static defense positions.
So the US will have a very hard time getting to those installations and making sure they are destroyed.
One should remember that Iran will not fight this war on US terms, they will resort to shoot and scoot actions while raising rebel groups and small cells scattered around the nation.
The US will dictate the war from the start and i am confident that they will have the upper hand within hours, but that does not take away the fact that Iran can and will fight back.
If you look at Iraq and Afghanistan then you see that the casualties on US side started to pile up after the initial Shock and awe and after the swift air attacks.
Iran could wait and hide most of their assets under ground where no weapon within the US arsenal can reach them.
The danger for this scenario is very real and with the small pockets of troops around the nation Iran can put up a strong defense against US assets in the region.

Also i would give the Irani artillery assets some credit as they could seriously proof to be a pain specially if Iran would deploy their smaller more mobile missile arsenal against US key assets.
In short said Iraq and Afghanistan would be easy compared to what Iran can trow into the fight.
In terms of anti air assets Iran has a significant number of older AA running around, and its rather outdated stuff but still deadly if overlooked.
However their S-300 systems they could IF modified trow some dust in the eyes of US pilots.

Just a few key factors that will come into play.
That having said, i know perfectly well that realistically speaking Iran does not win a war, but question is do they actually have to win it? to achieve their goals?
And thats a question the US should ask them selfs what they would gain from this war.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I would mass forces on the Afghanistan border, making it clear that I would invade in the event of an attack upon our soil.
Iran is unlikely to do this as it seeks good relations with Kabul and vice versa and would acomplish nothing by massing troops on the border. Not connected to our discussion but in the 1800's Iranian attacks on Western Afghanistan led to the British landing troops on Kharg island.

Still, Iran doesn't have a lot of options.
Actually, Iran has quite a few options.

1. It can increase its support for Assad and get its proxy Hezbollah to keep the Israeli's busy on their northern border. Then again the Israelis might welcome this as it would give them the ideal pretext on entering south Lebanon again to destroy Hezbollah, which they failed to do in 2006.

2. It can make mischief in Iraq, where sectarian violence is on the rise. Iran already has great influence in Iraq due to the Shia majority there, to the great dismay of the Americans who have seen Iraq and Iranian ties improved. If things get out of hand, the Americans might have to increase their level of involvement in the country again.

3. It can also create problems in places like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain, both of which are countries that are allied with the West and have an oppressed Shia minority. As it is the Gulf Arabs have long complained of Iranian meddling in their countries.

4. Though like the Americans, it is against the Taliban, Iran can also create problems in Afghanistan [as you already mentioned] , a country where it already has some influence in. But the problem here is that it does not want things to get worse in Afghanistan as in the long term it would effect Iran. Also bear in mind that to the Sunni Taliban, the Shia Iranians are heretics. Remember how the Taliban went door to door gunning down Shia;s in Herat and how the Taliban slaughtered the Iranian diplomats. If Iran really intended to cause problems for the americans, they could provide support to the Baluch rebels in Pakistan, with the result that Pakistan might become more unstable and that Pakistani troops, which the Americans would like to see hunting insurgents in FATA, would be deployed in larger numbers to Baluchistan.
 

just4me

New Member
Any Iranian strategy must underscore the fact that:
1. The US and NATO countries' population are weary of war but are worried of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons.
2. The deep sectarian hatred between sunni and shiite.
The strategic implication of the first point is that the west will employe some of their advance hi tech weaponry to make sure the initial strike being heavy and severe would've crippled or totally disabled Iranian ability to manufacture nuclear weapons. Does possess hi tech anti aircraft weapons to shield against f-22?
2 . Any Iranian military planner who undermine the deep sectarian divide between Shiite and sunni will be miscalculating. Saudi Arabia has made it clear that should Iran be allowed to possess nuclear weapons it too will have to break the NPT. It helped to finance the Pakistani nuclear weapons programme on the grounds that should Iran use nuclear weapons against Saudi Arabia or any sunni islamic country pakistan should retaliate, so it,s a poor plan for to engage in Afghanistan. The conflict has potentiality of generating to an instable middle east which will seriously affect global economy and revice the cuts in defence budgets in Europe and US, and complicating western economic problems and Iiranian also getting worst . The best strategy is for Iran to capitulate and reverse its attempt t acquire nuclear weapons. Israel is no threat to Iran.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
It helped to finance the Pakistani nuclear weapons programme on the grounds that should Iran use nuclear weapons against Saudi Arabia or any sunni islamic country pakistan should retaliate, so it,s a poor plan for to engage in Afghanistan.
From what little we know on the subject, Saudi provided some assistance to Pakistan at an early stage and on the understanding that it would benefit from it if the country was threatened. Yes Saudi is very wary of Iran but its help to Pakistan was not intended at Iran.

The best strategy is for Iran to capitulate and reverse its attempt t acquire nuclear weapons. Israel is no threat to Iran.
Iran is also no threat to Israel. The best strategy would be for the U.S. to actually engage in realpolitik and seek rapprochement with Iran. The Iranian leadership is not hell bent on a confrontation or a war, despite what some would like us to believe do not go to bed at night with dreams of nuking Haifa or Tel Aviv and actually want improve relations with the U.S. Lets keep in mind that Iran cooperated in the 'War on Terror' and it cooperated over Afghanistan - in return it was labeled as part of the 'Axis of Evil'. Yes, like most countries in the region, Iran has blood on its hands and has 'meddled' in the affairs of others but it would be useful to put things in perspective and try to view things objectively. As I have mentioned before in this thread, both Iran and the U.S. have common interests and both will benefit in the event that relations are improved.
 

kiwanuka

New Member
it depends on the country which leads the strike

in my opinion, i think it depends on who has led the strike against the nuclear facilities. i don't think many countries would be interested in participating in a long term war caused by such a strike except the country that has led the strike and its very very close allies.
in case it is Israel i first of all would not strike back immediately but first of all add as many defense systems as possible for example anti-aircraft defense missile from Russia. I would go ahead and carry the war to Israel by striking as many targets as possible even if they are civilian .
If the US leads such an attack, i would suspend the prospects of a long term war but attack US military bases in different parts of the world after gathering more intelligence information about them and having the latest military equipment.
 

just4me

New Member
To say Iran is no thread to Israel is completely wrong assertion. Ahmedinajad who's the president of Iran on several occasion has made plane his intention to wipe Israel off the face of the globe and went on to claim the holocaust didn't happen. Prior to Ahmedinajad this kind of rhetorics were unheard of in Iran. Even during the Iran-Iraq war Israel played a supportive role to Iran. Ahmedinajad is a fanatic whose rhetorics shouldn't be undermined. He also possess an anti-sunni agenda for instance his support for the Alawite genocide on the majority sunni.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
My plan, WOULD be to isolate NATO forces from Pakistan, where a large portion of supplies could be brought in. I am not convinced that in event of a direct conflict with Iranian Army forces, sufficient supplies could be brought in to keep the forces supplied. However, as you point out, the Infrastructure of Afghanistan's roads may not be suitable to keep ANY army supplied for long. Grabbing the major highway would be critical in keeping supplies moving. Iran has a long border with Afghanistan and the terrain here is much flatter than that experienced in the north.

Naval forces would NOT be able to last long against U.S. forces. I feel that using them to augment existing defenses would be beneficial. Since Iran has insufficient radar installations to cover the entire country, detecting and engaging enemy air assets would need to be done near the coast, if possible. yes, this brings them within range of naval surface combatants, which is something I had not remembered.
No country, including the USA and Russia, have enough AAA systems to defend the entire country. Crustal defense strategies almost always fail because the enemy only has to take out 2 or 3 batteries to make a useful hole, and can then ignore the rest. The opening shots in Operation Desert Storm were from attack helicopters taking out 2 Iraqi radar stations which essentially left all of southern Iraq wide open.
Iran has a few hundred operational aircraft. For NATO to keep combat air forces flying in a country with limited fuel imports would be difficult. NATO could not commit attack forces to bomb Iranian facilities, naval forces, infrastructure, AND keep a strong force over Afghanistan. Since Iran essentially concedes loss of air superiority over its territory, it moves her forces to the east extend the range of inbound attackers, and supports her engagement of forces in Afghanistan.
Iran has only around 100 operational fighters (air superiority and multi-role designs). The primary opposition will not be NATO operating only from Afghanistan and Turkmenistan, but the aircraft from the 2 to 3 US carriers in the Gulf and Indian Ocean, with 80 to 150 F-18s between them. With tanker support from Masirah Air Base they can reach almost anywhere in Iran and even into Afghanistan without crossing Pakistani air space.
Iran has essentially no worries of a land invasion of her own soil early in the conflict. My thoughts were that Mujahideen forces would fight alongside anyone working to destroy the west. Supporting forces within Pakistan may be problematic, as you point out, and the whole strategy of supporting the indigenous forces was simply to give NATO something else to worry about; ie small units able to attack everywhere would draw more forces away for defense of remote areas and away from main areas of attack, and weaken government control of more territory.
The problem for the Mujahideen is that the indigenous forces (i.e. Taliban) is more of a Pushtun tribal militia, and they are in the southern and eastern parts of Afghanistan, where all the action is. Western Afghanistan is (relatively) quiet, and the indigenous forces are local warlords, smugglers, and bandits, not the Taliban, and are as noted are Sunni (anti-Shia) and anti-Persian (well hostile to anyone not of their tribe and clan, and not sure about at least some of them). So don’t expect a warm welcome.
Iranian boats to declare neutral? That would be interesting and shows good "Out of the box" thinking on your part.
As my father always says – “Smile at your enemies and you will drive them nuts worrying about what you might have been up to.”
Turkmenistan's military is poor, even by the standards of that region of the world, being poorly maintained and funded. It does, however, have a defense treaty with Russia. Again, something I had forgotten. Other means would need to be employed to "Encourage" them to slow down NATO supplies via those corridors.
They also have great defensive terrain with minimal population so they don’t have to hold ground, in which to wage a mobile defense, and only a couple of access routes. You won’t overrun them quick. That gives time for NATO and Russian aircraft bleed you, and possibly for ground units to arrive and convert your attack into a bloody route.
Still, Iran doesn't have a lot of options. It can sit within her borders and get pounded, take an offense stance and invade somewhere that her army can be brought to bear, or simply peeve off the entire world by closing the strait, attacking oil loading facilities, and sinking tankers at random.
No, Iran does not have any good options left, just bad (toughing it out and accepting the attack on their enrichment facilities), worse (conceding to an intrusive international inspection regime for their uranium enrichment program), and the worst. Launching an attack on another country to get at US forces in the region is definitely in the worst category.
Causing an American defeat would greatly damage her resolve to interfere in the region in the future. Even if the invasion failed, large numbers of NATO casualties would still cause unrest in Europe and America; those who feel it unworthy for their citizens to die in this part of the world.
A clear military defeat of US/NATO would be worse in the long run for Iran than losing, as it would almost certainly result in the NATO countries rebuilding the capabilities that they have allowed of atrophy. Then a couple years later, when Iran makes another push, NATO hammers them flat. It is a standard cycle of history when great powers get too complacent.

What Iran has to do is hunker down, and force a draw. That keeps the public anger in the NATO countries focused at home, not at Iran.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
Iran is also no threat to Israel. The best strategy would be for the U.S. to actually engage in realpolitik and seek rapprochement with Iran. The Iranian leadership is not hell bent on a confrontation or a war, despite what some would like us to believe do not go to bed at night with dreams of nuking Haifa or Tel Aviv and actually want improve relations with the U.S. Lets keep in mind that Iran cooperated in the 'War on Terror' and it cooperated over Afghanistan - in return it was labeled as part of the 'Axis of Evil'. Yes, like most countries in the region, Iran has blood on its hands and has 'meddled' in the affairs of others but it would be useful to put things in perspective and try to view things objectively. As I have mentioned before in this thread, both Iran and the U.S. have common interests and both will benefit in the event that relations are improved.
An attempt at rapprochement with Iran was made in 2008, Iran threw it back in the US’s teeth.

Iran has repeatedly made it quite clear that before any rapprochement with US can be discussed that all the sanctions will have to be withdrawn, only then will they think about whether they even want a rapprochement. Any attempts to restrict Iranian access to uranium enrichment technologies are a deal killer. And they want a huge quantity of reparations (this is the only part that might be negotiable).

Iran has locked itself into a ‘win big’ scenario, and believes that if they can just tough it out long enough they can get everything they want. This is the same game that North Korea is engaged in, except Iran is counting on their oil to keep them from becoming isolated internationally, or at least not for too long.

And Iran could very well win that way if they can keep their nuclear program (which is well dispersed, bunkered, and appear to have sufficient redundancy for the program to survive air strikes), going.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
An attempt at rapprochement with Iran was made in 2008, Iran threw it back in the US’s teeth.
You make it sound as if it is entirely Iran's fault that the rapprochement didn't happen. If I'm not mistaken, Iran's official reason for not going ahead with an improvement in ties was because several conditions that Iran could not accept as it was counter to its interests, were insisted by the U.S. Behind the scenes what actually happened is anyone's guess but I doubt if the attempt failed solely due to the fault of one side. But since you brought up 2008, let me mention that there were a number of other instances where Iran made an effort to improves ties as long as its keys interests were not placed in jeopardy. Let me ask you this, what did Iran get in return for its cooperation in the so called 'War On Terror'? What did it get in return for being cooperative over the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan?

If the U.S. was really serious in rapprochement and was ready to engage in realpolitik, which would recognise Iranian interests and concerns, the Iranians would be very willing as it would benefit them. If this were to happen, in place of the longstanding U.S. policy of demonising and isolating Iran, perhaps we wouldn't be having some of the problems we are having today and perhaps Iran would have no reason to contemplate having a nukes programme. The problem for the U.S. is that any rapprochement with Iran will not only have to take into account America's national interest but also that of Israel's and Israel might not be so keen on a U.S./Iran rapprochement, irrespective of whether Iran actually posed a threat to Israel or not.

This is the same game that North Korea is engaged in, except Iran is counting on their oil to keep them from becoming isolated internationally, or at least not for too long.
You're right Iran has oil and it can be argued is placed in a more strategic part of the world. And the the key difference between North Korea and Iran is that Iran is actually already in a 'Cold War' with the Sunni Arabs [supported by Uncle Sam] over the Shia/Sunni schism, is faced with a hostile Israel which since the 1990's has threatened to attack Iran over the nuclear issue and has deep concerns in places such as the Lebanon and Afghanistan, both places of supreme importance for Iran and both places where Iran faces countries that are trying to curb its influence. North Korea on the other hand is faced with no hostile neighbours and is purely engaged in nuclear blackmail to ensure regime survival. As long as North Korea does not 'misbehave', the U.S. and its allies are contend to let the status quo remain, this is a situation which is very different from Iran, where the U.S. and its allies would welcome a regime change there to siute their various interests.
 
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My2Cents

Active Member
If the U.S. was really serious in rapprochement and was ready to engage in realpolitik, which would recognise Iranian interests and concerns, the Iranians would be very willing as it would benefit them. If this were to happen, in place of the longstanding U.S. policy of demonising and isolating Iran, perhaps we wouldn't be having some of the problems we are having today and perhaps Iran would have no reason to contemplate having a nukes programme. The problem for the U.S. is that any rapprochement with Iran will not only have to take into account America's national interest but also that of Israel's and Israel might not be so keen on a U.S./Iran rapprochement, irrespective of whether Iran actually posed a threat to Israel or not.
What do you believe that the minimum set of Iranian interests and concerns that the US would have to accept to get serious on rapprochement?
 
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In my consideration, a massive missile attack on Israeli civilian and economic centres would be the most cost effective approach for Iran. Iran could leave U.S targets alone and fit cluster munitions and fuel/air warheads to their MRBMs and target them at Israeli population centres. This would cause mass panic and consternation in Israel whilst at the same time limiting Israeli options for retaliation.
Hezbollah missiles may be used to saturate the Israeli ABM and perhaps a few scud launches in addition to MLRS salvos should keep Israeli ABM defences on the back foot.
This in addition to ramping up support for insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq may cause the costs of attacking Iran outweigh the benefits.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
What do you believe that the minimum set of Iranian interests and concerns that the US would have to accept to get serious on rapprochement?
Minimum Iranian interests and concerns that the US would have to accept are very dependent on what the Iranians want and whether or not these tie in with U.S. national interests. For a start, a certain level of trust has to be established between both countries. The Iranians need to understand the level of mistrust the U.S. has for Iran and the concerns the Sunni Arab Gulf states have over Iran due to the Shia/Sunni schism, that goes back for centuries. And the Iranian leadership needs to send a loud and clear message that Iran does not intend to challenge U.S./Israel hegemony in the region and does not intend to threaten American interests in the region. I believe the Iranians would want to be acknowledged as a regional power [which to a certain extent they already are] and they need reassurances that neither the U.S. nor any of its allies , through covert or overt means, will attempt regime change in Tehran. Once a certain level of trust has been established and both parties have laid out their concerns and the objectives they hope to achieve, then actual talks can begin. To me, the 'Arab Spring' was ironic in the sense that though the U.S. was hoping in the past that the Iranian leadership would be overthrown by a popular demonstration, regime change actually happened in Tunisia and Egypt, which had leaders who were supported by the U.S.

Things will get complicated along the way because the U.S. will insist that Iran severe its relations with Syria, Hamas and Hezbollah - which off course the Iranians won't do as it would be contrary to its interests. Other areas of concern to Iran also include the Lebanon and Iraq, both in Iran's backyard, places of supreme importance to the Iranians and also places in where the Iranians can help. As expected, U.S. attempts at ensuring that Iran stayed out of Iraq has failed and to its dismay, Iran/Iranian ties have improved and Iran enjoys a lot of influence in Iraq. Iran in turn will then also point out that most of the longstanding problems in the Middle East are due to the still unresolved Palestine/Israeli problem - regarding occupied Arab land - and the Iranians will insist the U.S. acts as an honest and impartial broker to the dispute. The Iranians no doubt will also point out that despite what many would have us believe, that they have no wish to attack Israel [I believe that unofficially the Iranians actually welcome a strong Israel as a counterweight against the Sunni Arabs] and that their problem with Israel is largely due to Israel holding on to land that doesn't belong to it and the situation in Lebanon, where both Iran and Israel have been fighting a covert war, since the 1980's. Israel's 'Operation Peace For Gallilee' in 1982 was an attempt not only to destroy the PLO but to weaken Syria and more importantly, to establish a friendly Christian Lebanese government - all of which were harmful to Iran's interests.

Yes, given the many differences both countries have, which include issues that effect other countries, a rapprochement sounds impossible to achieve but one has to start somewhere and lay the groundwork. The alternative would be continued instability in the region and perhaps yet another war that will have global repercussions. When examined from an objective viewpoint, it is obvious that both countries share common interests and that a rapprochement would provide immense benefits to both.
 
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My2Cents

Active Member
Minimum Iranian interests and concerns that the US would have to accept are very dependent on what the Iranians want and whether or not these tie in with U.S. national interests. For a start, a certain level of trust has to be established between both countries. The Iranians need to understand the level of mistrust the U.S. has for Iran and the concerns the Sunni Arab Gulf states have over Iran due to the Shia/Sunni schism, that goes back for centuries. And the Iranian leadership needs to send a loud and clear message that Iran does not intend to challenge U.S./Israel hegemony in the region and does not intend to threaten American interests in the region. I believe the Iranians would want to be acknowledged as a regional power [which to a certain extent they already are] and they need reassurances that neither the U.S. nor any of its allies , through covert or overt means, will attempt regime change in Tehran. Once a certain level of trust has been established and both parties have laid out their concerns and the objectives they hope to achieve, then actual talks can begin. To me, the 'Arab Spring' was ironic in the sense that though the U.S. was hoping in the past that the Iranian leadership would be overthrown by a popular demonstration, regime change actually happened in Tunisia and Egypt, which had leaders who were supported by the U.S.
Anytime someone starts talking about “U.S./Israel hegemony in the region” referring to the Persian Gulf the “Great Jewish Conspiracy” alarms start going off in my head. The US may have some hegemonic influence in the area, but Israel? Don’t mean to be insulting, but can you supply any evidence beyond speculation, or was it just a poor choice of words?

On the other items:
  1. The Iranians understand the level of mistrust the U.S. has for Iran. If they care it is only because the US is in the way of exporting their revolution to the rest of the Islamic world.
  2. The Iranians understand concerns the Sunni Arab Gulf states have over Iran due to the Shia/Sunni schism. After all, the Sunni are apostates to be exterminated per their interpretation of the Koran, so why shouldn’t they be concerned. The Iranians are also demanding that control of the holy places (Mecca and Medina) be turned over to them by the apostates for safe keeping.
  3. The whole point of Iran’s actions and their probable nuclear weapon program is to challenge the U.S. for the role of protective power for the region in order to achieve goals 1 & 2, and is a clear to threaten American interests. This is a new Cold War (so far), and as far as Iran is concerned can only end with an Iranian victory or regime change in Iran (possibly without US involvement).
Yes, given the many differences both countries have over issues that also effect other countries, a rapprochement sounds impossible to achieve but one has to start somewhere and lay the groundwork. The alternative would be continued instability in the region and perhaps yet another war that will have global repercussions.
Given the fact that most the politics of the area is tribal, clan, or even family based, instability is not just inevitable, but the norm. Religion and ethnicity just throws a couple more log on the fire.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Anytime someone starts talking about “U.S./Israel hegemony in the region” referring to the Persian Gulf the “Great Jewish Conspiracy” alarms start going off in my head. The US may have some hegemonic influence in the area, but Israel? Don’t mean to be insulting, but can you supply any evidence beyond speculation, or was it just a poor choice of words?
I don't mean to be insulting either by why do people constantly assume that
whenever someone mentions Israeli hegemony or the U.S./Israel relationship, that the person who mentioned it is a believer of the 'Great Jewish Conspiracy' ? Anybody who believes in the so called 'Great Jewish Conspiracy' is just as misinformed and detached from reality as those who believe that Iran wants nukes solely to wipe out Israel [never mind that in doing so Iran would cease to exist and so would Israel's neighbours in Palestine and Lebanon] and that the reason Iran is 'uncooperative' with Uncle Sam is because it wants to 'control' the region and impose its ideals on the Arabs!

When I mentioned Israeli hegemony, what I meant is Israel's military superiority, the political and diplomatic backing it receives from the U.S which enables Israel to do things that no other country would be able to do and get away with and U.S. policy towards the Middle East which driven by a policy of ensuring the security of Israel and maintaining its military edge. I was not referring to any pro-Israel groups in the U.S., implying that U.S. policy towards the Middle East is determined by Israel or implying that the U.S. and Israel have a 'grand master plan' to 'control' the region. Nor, in case you might ask next, am I questioning the need for Israel to ensure its security.

So no, as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't a poor choice of words on my part nor was it speculation.

[*] The Iranians understand the level of mistrust the U.S. has for Iran. If they care it is only because the US is in the way of exporting their revolution to the rest of the Islamic world.
I'm not sure where you got your information from but you are very mistaken - the Iranians are not attempting to 'export' the revolution to the rest of the Muslim world. Such an attempt would be impossible, regardless of whether the U.S. wanted to prevent it. There is also a profound difference between an Iran that is very assertive because it feels threatened, an Iran that is determined to protect the interests of Shia minorities in the Middle East and an Iran that is hell bent on 'exporting' the revolution and one that is a threat to the 'free world'. Beyond mentioning the Sunni/Shia schism in general, which is necessary because it has a direct bearing on this topic, I would not go into further detail on the Sunni/Shia schism because that would be an entirely different topic and is subject to interpretation.

[*] The whole point of Iran’s actions and their probable nuclear weapon program is to challenge the U.S. for the role of protective power for the region in order to achieve goals 1 & 2, and is a clear to threaten American interests.
What is a clear threat to American interest is not Iran or any other 'rogue' regime but decades of misguided and flawed policy the U.S. has adopted towards the Middle East. To claim that the Iranian nuclear programme [we don't even know if they have even decided to make nukes] and its actions are intended to 'challenge the U.S.' is absurd and doesn't stand up to close scrutiny and objective analysis. I've said this before and I'll say it again, if the Iranians do reach a point where they decide that they need nukes, it will be to ensure regime survival......... You constantly harp on how Iran is a 'threat' and how Iran is responsible for the current situation and give the impression that it is inevitable that U.S. and Iranian policies will be at odds to each other. What about the role the U.S. has played and which country is actually adopting policies that are contrary to the interests of another country?

Given the fact that most the politics of the area is tribal, clan, or even family based, instability is not just inevitable, but the norm. Religion and ethnicity just throws a couple more log on the fire.
One major reason for 'instability' in the Middle East were the artificial borders drawn up by foreign powers in the early part of the last century, to divide their areas of interests and to make the lands they were occupying more 'governable'. This was done without consulting the people who actually live there and who owned the lands. To speculate or claim that instability is inevitable merely because many societies are clan or tribal based is too simplistic.

In an earlier post, you asked me what I though was the minimum that the U.S. had to accept for rapprochement to be reached. I responded based on my opinions and what little I know on the subject. In turn, you responded with a pro-U.S. party line that pins all the blame on Iran and absolves the U.S. of any wrongdoing. Unfortunately things are not as simple or clear cut as that. No offence but I can watch a State Department briefing on CNN for that or read the New York Times. What would have been useful and interesting would have been for you to explain what you thought would be needed for both countries to seek rapprochement and discuss common areas where both can co-operate on.
 
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surpreme

Member
After World War 1 when the turks lose to the British. The area was divided up into 10 countries. For centuries this area was one big islamic nation.
 

surpreme

Member
The best thing the Iranian can do is fired some missiles at Israel. And mobilized the population to be prepared for more air strike by the US. Another thing the Iranian can do is sent SF to Lebanon and Syria and Iraq. Bring in the Jerusalem units to action and hit the Israelis. Learn to hide your equipment against a heavy air attack. Its not to much it can do since it has outdated equipment.
 
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