Hypothetical Cold War Invasion

woodenandy

New Member
Newbie here. This is only my second post. Just hope I am not asking an already asked question. I have always had this question in my head when reading up on the Cold War.

Let's say in the year 1980, there was a hypothetical Soviet invasion of Britain. The Soviets have somehow managed to fight their way to London. What would be the contingency plan for the defense of the city? Would we see Milan missile positions, for example. What types of tanks or armored-fighting vehicles would most likely be deployed? Any speculation/opinion is welcomed.
 

fozz

New Member
Newbie here. This is only my second post. Just hope I am not asking an already asked question. I have always had this question in my head when reading up on the Cold War.

Let's say in the year 1980, there was a hypothetical Soviet invasion of Britain. The Soviets have somehow managed to fight their way to London. What would be the contingency plan for the defense of the city? Would we see Milan missile positions, for example. What types of tanks or armored-fighting vehicles would most likely be deployed? Any speculation/opinion is welcomed.
Well, This sounds like fun - I have a few questions first.

In this hypothetical situation... Do we or do we not know about the invasion previously due to SIGINT/ Human Intelligence etc... For example we knew the wall was falling in Berlin before it ever fell...

Do we know they are coming? Yes or No?

Is the United States Military involved or are we just talking Britain? Are we giving Britain the heads up due to USSR rolling through Europe? Just a few questions before we get into the nitty gritty.
 

woodenandy

New Member
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Well, This sounds like fun - I have a few questions first.

In this hypothetical situation... Do we or do we not know about the invasion previously due to SIGINT/ Human Intelligence etc... For example we knew the wall was falling in Berlin before it ever fell...

Do we know they are coming? Yes or No?

Is the United States Military involved or are we just talking Britain? Are we giving Britain the heads up due to USSR rolling through Europe? Just a few questions before we get into the nitty gritty.
Well, in this case, the hardliners in the Kremlin had a successful coup. The generals decide on a surprise"all or nothing" invasion of Europe. Plans are for Christmas 1980. Soviet counter-intelligence deceives us into believing the Soviets are massing for a winter military exercise. Nato reinforces defenses anyways, but many soldiers are home for the holidays. Those on duty are celebrating Christmas on base.

In this scenario. The Soviets have overwhelmed the European mainland and eventually gain naval superiority, but not full air superiority over the British isles. But despite this, they spearhead an invasion into Britain to deny the U.S. an important base of operations. In other words, a UK "Red Dawn" scenario.

I can imagine that London would have some sort of contingency plan should the Soviets invade Britain. If so, what would that plan be. I know any answer is highly subjective, and venturing deep into alternate reality.

I've read up a lot about U.S. plans in the event of an invasion. Also, a lot of movies and games (however, outlandish) were done on the subject. Just wondering what the Brits would have done. I know some would say the Soviets would have been bogged down by Nato's technological advantage. But...what if the Soviets managed the "impossible." Also, we'll leave out nuclear weapons. But gas and biological weapons may be employed.

Sorry for the the long post.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Old apple games. Gary Grigsby's North Atlantic '86 and Reforger '88 would yield some orbats and strategies. Can still play these games with emulators. Larry bond's older harpoon versions might also yield some atlantic scenarios.

Baltic falls first followed by Iceland and Faroes. Once lost, this gives a base for Soviet backfires to stage anti-shipping attacks on cross atlantic resupply/reforger convoys or US CVGs.

With the distance to Bergen, it makes more sense for Soviet airborne landings in Scotland to capture a port and try to fight their way south. Problem is that like WW2, Britain would have committed the greater part of its strength eg armoured to defend mainland Europe. Once that happens and the strength gets depleted, maintaining adequate defence across the British isles won't be easy.

Links to manuals.
North Atlantic 86
http://project64.c64.org/games/m-z/index.html

Reforger 88
http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-reforger--88_4334.html

NA 86 game background...
MAY - Soviet Forces attack NATO under cover of Spring Manuevers.
- NATO command control disrupted by Soviet bombing of airfields, communications centres, troop barracks.
- Many NATO communication and surveillance satellites destroyed by Soviet ASAT weapons.
- Soviet marines land in Norway.
- Soviet Airborne forces land in Denmark.
JUNE 1 - Denmark cut off from Northern Army Group (N.A.G.).
- Danish government evacuates to Great Britain.
JUNE 3 - Denmark surrenders.
JUNE 10 - Soviet, Czech and Hungarian forces invade Austria.
JUNE 20 - Austria surrenders.
JUNE 27 - Soviet Forces capture Oslo.
- Norway surrenders.
- Soviet forces capture Hamburg and Bremen.
JULY 5 - Soviet ground forces enter Netherlands.
- NATO forces retreat west of the Rhine river.
JULY 9 - Soviet airborne force land north of Amsterdam.
- N.A.G. collapses.
JULY 11 - Soviets capture Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague.
JULY 17 - Soviets enter Belgium, encircle Antwerp.
JULY 19 - Belgium and Netherlands surrender.
JULY 22 - Soviet Forces capture Cologne and Bonn, encircle the Ruhr cities.
JULY 30 - Soviet airborne forces land in Luxemborg.
AUGUST 1 - French Intervention - French army enters Luxembourg.
AUGUST 4 - Soviet airborne division in Luxembourg collapses under French attack.
AUGUST 11 - NATO remnants withdraw to France. Germany surrenders.
AUGUST 18 - Soviets agree to cease fire with France. France declares its neutrality.
AUGUST 22 - NATO forces evacuated to Great Britain.
(thru AUG 29)

AUGUST 25 - Soviet Baltic Fleet sighted in North Sea, west of Bergen.
AUGUST 28 - Soviets bomb British airfields and ports from captured bases in West Germany and Norway.
AUGUST 31 - Soviet Baltic Fleet enters Murmansk combines with Atlantic Fleet.
SEPTEMBER 1 - British Fleet relocates in Iceland.
SEPTEMBER 6 - British Prime Minister vows to continue fighting....
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well, in Reforger you usually would start dropping nukes at some point between E+17 and E+23... at least in the 80s. Before that, at E+1 or similar ;)
 

woodenandy

New Member
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Old apple games. Gary Grigsby's North Atlantic '86 and Reforger '88 would yield some orbats and strategies. Can still play these games with emulators.
Ah, the old games. Never got to play the old 80s games. Didn't get into military-themed sims until the 90s. I'll check them out if I can find them.


NA 86 game background...
MAY - Soviet Forces attack NATO under cover of Spring Manuevers....
Love the timeline for this. Using the NA86 timeline.

AUGUST 11 - NATO remnants withdraw to France. Germany surrenders.
AUGUST 18 - Soviets agree to cease fire with France. France declares its neutrality.
AUGUST 22 - NATO forces evacuated to Great Britain.
Under the assumption that Britain lost a significant portion of their heavy equipment, like in WWII, I'd assume we see outdated models like Chieftains. Possibly, there might be light tanks such as Scorpions and Scimitars. I do agree that Britain's resource would be stretched.

Let's say the Soviets tanks do get into London. Would it be plausible for the British to place all available armored assets in the city? Or would this go against military wisdom since the city would be reduced to rubble anyways, making tank movement difficult. I do remember seeing photos from WWII of Germans placing Panther and Tiger tanks in Berlin.

I think I'll end my questions here, because the questions might be endless. But, I do love alternate-reality scenarios. Would love to read up on Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" again. It's the only book I know of that deals with the cold war. If anyone can suggest further reading, that'd be great. :)
 

woodenandy

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Would love to read up on Tom Clancy's "Red Storm Rising" again. It's the only book I know of that deals with the cold war. If anyone can suggest further reading, that'd be great. :)
Oops, what I meant to say, it's the only alternate-reality book on the Cold War that I know of. :D
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
There are several other books available. Just try:

- Third World War
- Team Yankee
- Red Army
- Arc Light

Britain wouldn't have fought on without the US staying in the game.
So we would probably see alot of US troops as well as mix of surviving other NATO units which got evacuated.

I think that Frances role in such scenarios is often underestimated. They were and are still part of NATO, don't want to have the Sovjets on their doorstep and often trained together with Benelux and German Forces.
They would have been in the thick right from the beginning.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Old apple games. Gary Grigsby's North Atlantic '86 and Reforger '88 would yield some orbats and strategies. Can still play these games with emulators. Larry bond's older harpoon versions might also yield some atlantic scenarios.

Baltic falls first followed by Iceland and Faroes. Once lost, this gives a base for Soviet backfires to stage anti-shipping attacks on cross atlantic resupply/reforger convoys or US CVGs.
Don't know the details of those scenarios, but no one is going to stage strat bombers from the 4k ft runway in the Faroes.
- Soviet Airborne forces land in Denmark.
Invading the Danish Isles was always the domain of the Poles and the GDR marines, which never really had the ability to do so and in recognition of this it was considered impossible by the mid 80's (the advent of advanced submarines, mines and ASM's).
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Don't know the details of those scenarios, but no one is going to stage strat bombers from the 4k ft runway in the Faroes.

Invading the Danish Isles was always the domain of the Poles and the GDR marines, which never really had the ability to do so and in recognition of this it was considered impossible by the mid 80's (the advent of advanced submarines, mines and ASM's).
Agree that Poles and GDR marines may have been part of plans of which the most oft quoted source has been pawel piotrowski's 2002 article. In his article, he was careful to include soviet airborne landing support as well.

Parallel History Project on Cooperative Security (PHP) - Polish Exercises: Landing Operation in Denmark

However, if one looks at CIA archives on the warsaw pact, it is clear that airborne landings in the Baltic was part of military thought at that time.

This was a recent but interesting read into WP strategy.
http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstrea...rbin Williamson Fellows Thesis.pdf?sequence=1

WARSAW PACT FORCES OPPOSITE NATO (NIE 11-14-75) - CIA document

All of which contemplated Soviet Airborne landings in support of Danish ops.

As to runway length, does it take very long to lay the added AM-2 mats (or soviet equivalent) to increase runway?

Having said that, it is only the background of a fun game in an alternate timeline. No historical justification needed but GG/SSI did do their homework ie no backfires in faroes.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
You have found some good sources there...

I have read almost all concerning Denmark in the PHP database years ago, and in there somewhere there are also sources that the Poles really didn't think it was a feasible undertaking. In particular mixing naval amphibious forces with commandeered civilian shipping proved to be an abject failure.

"Planned", "contemplated"... But did they truly think it feasible?

One should also consider the NATO forces on e.g. Zealand; UKMF (17,000 troops centered around a reinforced bde), at least 2 Danish mech/hvy bdes complete with arty/eng/log regs and circa 20,000 home guards (static, guarding key infrastructure, used against specfor infiltration and vertical envelopment). Also reserve units e.g. 2 USMC bdes as reserves for DK/Norway. But let us count those out.

1 x GDR Marine reg + 1 x Polish Landing Div + 1 x Polish airborne Div; even when including 2 Soviet Divs it looks like WP is in for some true excitement!

This how you extend the Faroese runway: Flogbreytin - FAE - Vága Floghavn

It ends in a lake in one end, the picture, and a 100 ft drop at the other end. But acknowledged, they didn't put bombers on the Faroes.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
You have found some good sources there...

I have read almost all concerning Denmark in the PHP database years ago, and in there somewhere there are also sources that the Poles really didn't think it was a feasible undertaking. In particular mixing naval amphibious forces with commandeered civilian shipping proved to be an abject failure.

"Planned", "contemplated"... But did they truly think it feasible?

One should also consider the NATO forces on e.g. Zealand; UKMF (17,000 troops centered around a reinforced bde), at least 2 Danish mech/hvy bdes complete with arty/eng/log regs and circa 20,000 home guards (static, guarding key infrastructure, used against specfor infiltration and vertical envelopment). Also reserve units e.g. 2 USMC bdes as reserves for DK/Norway. But let us count those out.

1 x GDR Marine reg + 1 x Polish Landing Div + 1 x Polish airborne Div; even when including 2 Soviet Divs it looks like WP is in for some true excitement!

This how you extend the Faroese runway: Flogbreytin - FAE - Vága Floghavn

It ends in a lake in one end, the picture, and a 100 ft drop at the other end. But acknowledged, they didn't put bombers on the Faroes.
Assuming no tactical nuclear strikes?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Assuming no tactical nuclear strikes?
I think this has been implied for this discussion. OTOH WP also considered potential nuclear mines in Køge Bugt and off Gedser as show stoppers in the absolute sense.

Btw, do you know what a typical Soviet airborne Div would look like circa 1980?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think that Frances role in such scenarios is often underestimated.
You mean the part where they'd essentially cover the retreat of II (GE), III (GE), V (US) and VII (US/GE) Corps across the Rhine using I (FR) and II (FR) Corps, and then proceed to nuke everything east of it that isn't nuked already?
 

ltdanjuly10

New Member
You mean the part where they'd essentially cover the retreat of II (GE), III (GE), V (US) and VII (US/GE) Corps across the Rhine using I (FR) and II (FR) Corps, and then proceed to nuke everything east of it that isn't nuked already?
This presumes that the NCA's of either the US, NATO or USSR have decided to go nuclear. A war in Europe would not necessarily escalate to that stage. I think the proposed scenario is a conventional one. But woodenandy should set the ground rules for Nuclear, Biological, Chemical and "special*" weapons as this is his scenario

*Special weapons include such things as nuclear weapons detonated in space to produce an EMP effect over a large area, although it is likely that during the cold war this would be seen as a prelude to a strategic nuclear attack and thus is a very provocative action
 

Humming Drone

New Member
Regarding NA 86 scenario and timeline: it appears the Soviets are using some sort of unlimited invincible airborne troops cheat code :D. It does not seem realistic to me how they accomplish so much with just airborne landings. And when it comes to amphibious landings, I believe they never had the strength to mount an operation as grand as invasion of the British Isles.

A point to note: I believe I saw news some years ago where journalists found Soviet maps with deployment details and tank movement routes through London (i.e. Soviet plans to invade Britain, London). I think it happened to be something like an exam work for officers of Soviet military academy - i.e. "how would you go about taking a city with armored forces."

Another good military simulation game is Harpoon - and there are a few versions of it. IIRC, Tom Clancy used Harpoon to come up with scenarios described in Red Storm RIsing.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think this has been implied for this discussion. OTOH WP also considered potential nuclear mines in Køge Bugt and off Gedser as show stoppers in the absolute sense.

Btw, do you know what a typical Soviet airborne Div would look like circa 1980?
Iirc ~3 para-regiments, 1 GBAD regiment (SAM/SPAAG/ZU), 1 arty regiment. But I may be wrong. I'll look it up for you.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I think this has been implied for this discussion. OTOH WP also considered potential nuclear mines in Køge Bugt and off Gedser as show stoppers in the absolute sense.

Btw, do you know what a typical Soviet airborne Div would look like circa 1980?
Airborne orbat:
Wargaming

For Denmark (1989), consider
WARSAW PACT ORDER OF BATTLE - 1988

Interesting to note one source stating Soviets stating that to shift MR division via air would need 500+ AN-8 and 250 AN-12s...

Used to have this board game as well decades ago. Fantastic to play.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Victory-Games-VG-NATO-Next-War-Europe-/230526300800
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Airborne orbat:
Wargaming

For Denmark (1989), consider
WARSAW PACT ORDER OF BATTLE - 1988

Interesting to note one source stating Soviets stating that to shift MR division via air would need 500+ AN-8 and 250 AN-12s...

Used to have this board game as well decades ago. Fantastic to play.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Victory-Games-VG-NATO-Next-War-Europe-/230526300800
Thanks - yet again some good sources!

The Polish Naval Assault Division is smaller than I thought, but equipped as I anticipated, i.e. OT62C and PT76. It does have a Tank btn with T-55M though. The Soviet airborne divs are a lot better equipped with light armour and arty - perhaps this explains the heavy logistics needed?

I think the defender (defending Zealand and Isles) would carry the day due to heavier forces and better tactical mobility. The 140 Centurions and 27 M41 would make a lot of difference. In particular with the upgrades the two types got in the latter half of the '80s.

Check out how nasty DK modification of the M41 was: M41 DK1 - Danish Army Vehicles Homepage
(a favourite of mine ;))

Never did much in terms of board games. Did a bit of early days Harpoon. ;)
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Don't forget about LANDJUT falling back into Jylland if pressured such.

The German reinforced 6th Mechanized Division would bring in some 780 AFVs including 374 (!!) Leopard 1, 11 infantry battalions, some 182 mobile artillery and heavy mortar systems, and 96 mobile anti-aircraft systems plus 430 MANPADS. Oh yeah, and 60 helos including 21 anti-tank helos.

And if we count in the 41st Territorial Troop Command flanking the 6th up those numbers to 443 tanks, 19 infantry battalions and 248 artillery and mortar systems total. Plus the other stuff above. Roundabout 190 Milan and 100 FK20 guns altogether too btw. For Jylland and Schleswig.

And there's over 40 German LCUs and LCMs (about 4200 tons combined capacity) waiting in Kiel and Eckernförde to possibly transport that to the islands too...
 
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