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Great Commanders in History

This is a discussion on Great Commanders in History within the Military Strategy and Tactics forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Mysterious, That is one reason why Indian defence books are full of sarcasim about Tikka Khan but not about a ...


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Old June 13th, 2004   #16
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Re: Great Commanders

Mysterious, That is one reason why Indian defence books are full of sarcasim about Tikka Khan but not about a field level officer or Pakistani Soldier. Regardless if Indian Army's Sam Manekshaw was not a strategist to use everything to his advantage, he would not be a great Chief. He used all the vunerabilities to India's advantage this is why he is still considered the best Armed Chief in India, a person whose personality use to keep even Indira Gandhi in her shoes..
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Old June 13th, 2004   #17
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Re: Great Commanders

I dont see why even a 'normal' Chief of an army not do what Sam Manekshaw did considering Tikka Khan's profile and character. Believe me, from the witnesses of 1971 crisis, I have heard very disturbing stories about how some of the people in the military of the eastern wing of Pakistan betrayed their country and what all they did to make sure that those 90,000 privates weren't even ordered to put up resistance but just to put their arms down!! My heart breaks in to a million pieces when I hear things that happened then and believe me, more than anything it was Pakistan's internal problems that led to the breakup of the east and nothing more that significant. One more thing is that, the rulers in the west Pakistan at that time had almost already decided that the east wing was a pain in the *&%!*@ due to Mujeeb Ur-Rehman (a.k.a. Indian agent) and it was rather felt as a relief in the political establishement to have gotten rid of the 'burden' one way or the other. Look at Bangladesh now, what did they achieve by breaking away? According to an article I read, 'sure... Pakistan is a poor country but Bangladesh is destitute'.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #18
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Re: Great Commanders

mysterious the thing is Tikka khan was not the commander of the the Pakistan army in east Pak infact it was AK Niazi. It is he who surroundered and not Tikka Khan. It is the greatest tragedy that Pakistan has ever had to come across/face. East Pakistan was not a milatary defeat it was more a political defeat.
n as far as the bravery of the indians goes......u r right mysterious it was one squadron of f-86 versus somthin nearin 10 indian squadrons and they after suffering losses against that one squadron shifted to night attacks and did not dare to fly sorties during the day. that 1 squadron faught till the time the runway was destroyed completely n when they could not fly they still were firing rockets while on the ground.
the indian army did not do any better most of all their offensives to capture bangladash land were meet with force and they were forced to retreat each time. as the number of troops was less so they eventually made a strategic withdrawl. The indian army captured very little land by way of fighting n east Pakistan.it is only after the surrounder that they were able to take that land.
I say it again it was a political defeat more than a milatary defeat.

Sorry to tell u this amit but ur nomination does not even come close to the feates achived by the people in the list above.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #19
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Re: Great Commanders

I am feeling pity for your military knowledge Mr Field Marshal. And Mysterious not even come in the picture at all( as he always has his own internal resourse and experince which are always away from reality).
In 1971 Indian Army was clearly told that they would be having very little time once the war will start. So they have to conquer as much as land possible in B'Desh with in 2 weeks. Along with that Chines intervention Indian Army had to take care of western front too. Moreover American did unexpected by moving their navy ships against India. This situation looks easy to you? It was not that only the 13 days war my dear, it was the long and zero-defect planning. All the odds were averted and war was finished in just 13 days in that difficult terrain just becasue of careful planning and execution. And I thing Army Chiefs do planning stuff and not ground fighting.
If Pakistani soldiers were ill equiped or in short supply than its your then moron leaders living in fools paradise not SAM. You just can not take away the credit from him for this idiotic reason.
And you are not intelligent enough to decide whether SAM qualifies for that or not. However those are my views and I have every right of expressing those.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #20
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Re: Great Commanders

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Originally Posted by amit21mech
I am feeling pity for your military knowledge Mr Field Marshal. And Mysterious not even come in the picture at all( as he always has his own internal resourse and experince which are always away from reality).
In 1971 Indian Army was clearly told that they would be having very little time once the war will start. So they have to conquer as much as land possible in B'Desh with in 2 weeks. Along with that Chines intervention Indian Army had to take care of western front too. Moreover American did unexpected by moving their navy ships against India. This situation looks easy to you? It was not that only the 13 days war my dear, it was the long and zero-defect planning. All the odds were averted and war was finished in just 13 days in that difficult terrain just becasue of careful planning and execution. And I thing Army Chiefs do planning stuff and not ground fighting.
If Pakistani soldiers were ill equiped or in short supply than its your then moron leaders living in fools paradise not SAM. You just can not take away the credit from him for this idiotic reason.
And you are not intelligent enough to decide whether SAM qualifies for that or not. However those are my views and I have every right of expressing those.
Right of Expressions and attacking others based on their views is a Concept considered wee bit apart!! you could of Expressed" your self in a more non offensive manner placing your views on the Forum without calling name or "expressing" your ill feeling of pity towards the posters!!!! Amit its almost as if your hatred is uncontrollable and its unbearable for your to Exchange your views peacefully, without adding offensive comments.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #21
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Amit, you can squeez all your hate and discomfort against Pakistanis. I am not going to edit your posts. Go ahead, lay it out. Say what you can, maybe it will make you feel better. Once you have then let me know.

Because after that I shall not put up with your hatefull posts that only mock and degrade Pakistanis/Pakistan rather than discuss important issues with them. Its a shame, really.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #22
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Re: Great Commanders

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Originally Posted by fieldmarshal
mysterious the thing is Tikka khan was not the commander of the the Pakistan army in east Pak infact it was AK Niazi. It is he who surroundered and not Tikka Khan. It is the greatest tragedy that Pakistan has ever had to come across/face. East Pakistan was not a milatary defeat it was more a political defeat.
n as far as the bravery of the indians goes......u r right mysterious it was one squadron of f-86 versus somthin nearin 10 indian squadrons and they after suffering losses against that one squadron shifted to night attacks and did not dare to fly sorties during the day. that 1 squadron faught till the time the runway was destroyed completely n when they could not fly they still were firing rockets while on the ground.
the indian army did not do any better most of all their offensives to capture bangladash land were meet with force and they were forced to retreat each time. as the number of troops was less so they eventually made a strategic withdrawl. The indian army captured very little land by way of fighting n east Pakistan.it is only after the surrounder that they were able to take that land.
I say it again it was a political defeat more than a milatary defeat.

Sorry to tell u this amit but ur nomination does not even come close to the feates achived by the people in the list above.

Amit, I sincerely wish you would reply in more matured way. You really do not need to get excited to make people believe in you. Arguments are going to be there but you got to take it cool and treat others with respect as you would want others to.

FieldMarshal, I have read several books on 1971 war, not once but plenty of times, and your saying that Indians were attacking only in night or were retreating when met with force, is only your imagination. Indians had really squeezed Pakistanis in that war pretty bad. In fact in some instances where the Platoon of Indians was smaller then Pakistanis, still Pakistanis retreated, so much was the fear factor and confusion. You need to read the whole story about 1971 to come up with partial conclusions.
BTW retreating in modern warfare is not considered bad. Also I wonder how without being squeezed or landlocked by Indians, Pakistanis surrendered? You are missing some thing here bud..as your words are not making sense.

And if you have read it in some books it is all propaganda, as during the war also Pakistani Government was spreading news of winning here and there, when suddenly Pakistani Population got a shock of their lives hearing that Pakistan had to surrender. I do not expect my clarity from those sources.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #23
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Amit you just gave us an insight into ur level of intelligece by ur last post.........you are full of rateric n nothing else....so come out of this and face the facts..............yes 71 was a defeat for Pakistan.. milatary or political makes no diff a defeat is a defeat.......but the thing is this defeat was inflicted on us by us and India like the oppertunist that it is took full tool of this situation............now lets look at the people who orchistrated all this ...mujeeb ur Rahman eas assasinated along with his whole family...indra ghandi was assasinated by the his own guard, for wt ever the reason.............n has india been able to achiev what it set out to achieve.......most of the disputes with banglabash are still there and so are the problems...it is not as if india conquered east Pakistan it emerged as an independent country.........n to tell u the truth we are better off as now they are happy and we are happy.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #24
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The only problem India had with the civil war betw East and West Pakistan were the millions of refugees. Many of those have been deported back to Bangladesh but still the influx is on to this day. That is how India sees ythis conflict. India never even bothered to takeover east Pakistan, a state of bangladesh would've been a liability to India.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #25
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Late General Zia Ul Haq for winning a war without firring a shot.........ie brass task..........India had in guise of an exercise had planned to launch a full scale assult across the international borders to surprice us........but with great tactical deployment of Pakistani forces this whole plan of india was countered.......and to save face India had to opt for a negociation, for the purpose of which General Zia went to India.
His other great achivement was the defeat of the russia in Afghanistan which was one of the major causes of the break up of russia. Had he lived long enaugh we would have seen a peaceful afghanistan and not the infighting we have seen over the years.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #26
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Originally Posted by fieldmarshal
mysterious the thing is Tikka khan was not the commander of the the Pakistan army in east Pak infact it was AK Niazi. It is he who surroundered and not Tikka Khan. It is the greatest tragedy that Pakistan has ever had to come across/face.
Yes, thanks for correcting me. I have mentioned in an earlier post that I couldn't remember correctly if it was Tikka Khan or someone else (Niazi's name completely slipped out of my mind). Actually I'm bad with names unless I know people really well so you can imagine.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #27
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Look buddy what i said was that the Indian airforce was force to shift was day time sorties to night time sorties.....the air force not the army.
All my information is not just from books but from personal accounts of army officers who were there.........my own grandfather along with my maternal uncle were there.......also quite a few of my fathers course mates and other of my family members who were there........n plus the airforce thing i tell u cuz parvez madhi qurashi is a very good friend of my father so this i have heard from him and read it on numerious occasions.
then there was a compamy which refused to laydown weapons and faught on n a full brigade had to be deployed to combat it.............
if u sit with thse people who were there than u know a lot of heroism, gutts , courage was displayed by each and every soldier there.and the surrender and there subsiquent treatment was according to them there lowest point in there lives..so as a concequence we just hear the bad things n not the good things
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Old June 14th, 2004   #28
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I'd say if the Bangladeshis saw India as an honest helper and sincere party in liberating them from Pakistan (this is the 'main' reason India puts forward for attacking East Pakistan in 1971 and not the refugee crisis); today India would not be hated by Bangladeshis and its political establishment. Somewhere down the line, they did become aware of secretive Indian planning and as a result, we can see what kind of relations the two countries have today. 1971 war was nothing but a chance created by Pakistan's internal crisis for India to make the move (one reason very clear to me is that 1971 was also a revenge for what Pakistan forces did to their Indian counterparts in 1965). I'm not at all amazed at roughly 100,000 Pakistani soldiers (with daily desertions by East-Pakistani troops) facing off almost the entire Indian Army plus the Mukti Bahini.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #29
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Bangladesh hates India because we are dumping their immigrants back in Dhaka. We also have a water sharing dispute. Bangladesh was a liability for Pakistan and India won't want to do anything with having Bangladesh as a state.
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Old June 14th, 2004   #30
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There's a lot more to that and more complex than how simple you make it sound.
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