Five Power nations strengths & weaknesses

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I am seeking to have a discussion comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the ADF, NZDF, and the militaries of ASEAN nations. I am looking to see the ranking of which countries are stronger in Air, Land, Sea and Joint operations in their respective territories in normal conditions, as well as what the anticipated capabilities would be in emergency conditions with 1 month of advanced warning. If particular attention could be paid to what things different countries either excel at or are particularly deficient at, or any special capabilities the different forces have.

Please note, having read the Kiwi Reactions thread and at times been very amused by it, that is not the sort of thread I am looking to repeat. What I am seeking is a general sense of where different nations are in terms of realistic abilities.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Todjaeger said:
I am seeking to have a discussion comparing the strengths and weaknesses of the ADF, NZDF, and the militaries of ASEAN nations. I am looking to see the ranking of which countries are stronger in Air, Land, Sea and Joint operations in their respective territories in normal conditions, as well as what the anticipated capabilities would be in emergency conditions with 1 month of advanced warning. If particular attention could be paid to what things different countries either excel at or are particularly deficient at, or any special capabilities the different forces have.

Please note, having read the Kiwi Reactions thread and at times been very amused by it, that is not the sort of thread I am looking to repeat. What I am seeking is a general sense of where different nations are in terms of realistic abilities.
Well Australia, Singapore, Malaysia and the UK all operate high quality and relatively numerous (regionally speaking) air and naval forces. NZ through it's isolationist policy operates only transport and limited surveillance capabilities in it's airforce and a Navy with limited combat and amphibious transport capabilities.

All 5 Countries operate quality land forces with a strong emphasis on light infantry capability (apart from the UK which also has high level mechanised an armoured forces) and very capable special operations forces capability.

As to your 1 month scenario, I'm not sure why you chose that particular time frame, but all 5 Countries operate "high readiness" forces able to deploy in relatively quick timeframes. Australia operates 2x brigades (1x light infantry and 1x mechanised) with "28 days" operational deployment readiness, plus supporting naval and air assets able to rapidly deploy where necessary.

Others can probably comment on other Countries readiness...

Hope this helps, somewhat.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
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  • #3
Aussie Digger said:
As to your 1 month scenario, I'm not sure why you chose that particular time frame...
I chose a 1 month time frame that could represent a decline in relations. The decline would be sufficient to cause a government to call up reserve elements, or activate vessels/units that would normally be in a training or maintenance cycle.

I am also looking to get relative rankings on the different forces capabilities. For example, the Czech army is considered to be fairly good at containment/cleanup of chemical weapons. A holdover I believe from when Czechslovakia was part of the Warsaw Pact and the Czechs and Slovaks were assigned that duty by the Soviets. Is there any similar type of specialization by any of the ASEAN nations or Australia/NZ?
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Todjaeger said:
I chose a 1 month time frame that could represent a decline in relations. The decline would be sufficient to cause a government to call up reserve elements, or activate vessels/units that would normally be in a training or maintenance cycle.

I am also looking to get relative rankings on the different forces capabilities. For example, the Czech army is considered to be fairly good at containment/cleanup of chemical weapons. A holdover I believe from when Czechslovakia was part of the Warsaw Pact and the Czechs and Slovaks were assigned that duty by the Soviets. Is there any similar type of specialization by any of the ASEAN nations or Australia/NZ?
Australia and New Zealand are particularly expert in light infantry "jungle" ops with even the USMC often attending our "jungle warfare" school in Tully in Far Northern Queensland, which given FPDA was set up to keep Indonesia "at bay" and discourage any further infiltration into Malaysia, is particularly useful.

Also RAAF, the Singaporean Air Force and in particular the RAF hold VERY significant qualitative advantages over the Indonesian Airforce. Other than that, I can't think of any specific advantage.

Most FPDA forces hold a qualitative advantage in virtually every aspect over likely adversaries so I guess it's a moot point really...
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
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  • #5
Any info on the capabilities of ASEAN nations? From what I've read, the Indonesian air force seems to be a paper tiger due to maintenance and parts issues. By numbers, their navy has more anti-ship missle carrying vessels than the RAN, but I don't know what the maintenance status for their navy is. I'm similarly interested in the equipment, training, morale and maintenance of other countries in the region like PNG, Thailand, the Philippines, Brunei, etc.
 
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Aussie Digger

Guest
Todjaeger said:
Any info on the capabilities of ASEAN nations? From what I've read, the Indonesian air force seems to be a paper tiger due to maintenance and parts issues. By numbers, their navy has more anti-ship missle carrying vessels than the RAN, but I don't know what the maintenance status for their navy is. I'm similarly interested in the equipment, training, morale and maintenance of other countries in the region like PNG, Thailand, the Philippines, Brunei, etc.
PNG has a (fairly) motley Army known as the PNGDF. It consists of a light infantry force equipped with older weapons supplied by Australia in the 70's and 80's, mostly FN-FAL and M-16A1 rifles, M-60 and FN-MAG GPMG's and 81mm mortars for fire support. They operate a number of unarmed patrol boats and used to have a couple of Iroquois helicopters (which were controversially "armed with machine guns" a few years back). They are organised into a couple of battalions, but have little in the way of engineering and logistical support.


They were a top class light infantry force back in the 60's and 70's when their infantry Regiment was known as the Pacific Islands Regiment (PIR, it still may be known as that for all I know), but systemic corruption in PNG has left the army little more than an ill-disciplined militia nowadays (to the best of my knowledge). I'd be highly doubtful if their Iroquois helo's OR patrol boats were still operational...

Not sure on Phillipines, but Brunei has a reasonable (though small) armed forces, including a Gurkha unit. The UK also has forces stationed in Brunei (I believe) and one of their Jungle warfare training centres is also located there.

Indonesia may have more ships on paper than RAN, but little of non of them are a significant threat. Indonesia cannot afford to fly it's 4x SU-30's it bought several years ago and any "missile boats" would be of dubious utility due to heavy sanctions over the years for repeated human rights violations. More evidence of the lack of capability of the Indonesian Navy, comes in the form of repeated requests for Australia to "donate" our "clapped out" Fremantle Class Patrol boats which are armed with a WW2 vintage 40mm Bofors gun and 0.50cal HMG's.

These vessels are in such poor condition that it's doubtful a scrap yard would even want them, yet Indonesia does...
 

NZLAV

New Member
Indonesia has become some-what military self-sufficiant. They can produce armour, naval and air units with their military manufacturers: Pindad and Hoverindo Nusa Persada. The Indonesian Air force has experienced a very large logistics crisis when the USA stopped supplying spare parts for the
F-16's and A4's. Off memory I think the TNI has 10 F-16's,2 SU-27, 2 SU-30's and approx 30 Hawks. They also have 37 skyhawks that are currently grounded but they plan on re-building them. The TNI navy has 6 Ahmad Yami frigates, 7 other frigates(some built in the 50's), 16 ASW patrol corvettes, 2 subs and a moderate number of large patrol vessels(built in the 80's and 90's) They are also currently building 4 Todak class large patrol vessels. They also have a large number of Amphibious ships. MOst of their naval ships were built in the 80's. The frigates are well armed but may need a replacement soon. I do not have any idea of what equipment the Indonesian army uses, could someone please take over from there.
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Aussie Digger said:
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Indonesia may have more ships on paper than RAN, but little of non of them are a significant threat. Indonesia cannot afford to fly it's 4x SU-30's it bought several years ago and any "missile boats" would be of dubious utility due to heavy sanctions over the years for repeated human rights violations. More evidence of the lack of capability of the Indonesian Navy, comes in the form of repeated requests for Australia to "donate" our "clapped out" Fremantle Class Patrol boats which are armed with a WW2 vintage 40mm Bofors gun and 0.50cal HMG's.

These vessels are in such poor condition that it's doubtful a scrap yard would even want them, yet Indonesia does...
While on holidays in bali the argument of Indonesia as a threat to aus came up,and many aussie expats as well as locals laughed at this idea as much of their military is inept, corrupt and poorly trained, i was also told that the latest ship the Indo navy operates is a former RN frigate that was decommisioned in the late 80s, and its there flagship, this sound right?
The Indo army is quite large, and sees much action in the north in Aceh province, but its training is quite poor, and equipment is to be desired. The Kopassus (special forces) have a history of Human rights violations and were reported in east timor in early 1999 supplying pro-indonesia militias with weapons. They now conduct a once a year counter terrorism excercise with aussie SAS.

The immediate time frame for deployment has been used by ADF in recent times, when an aussie protective services officer was shot in the solomon islands, the cairns based immediate response force deployed within 3-4 days with full support, as well as a second time during the rioting the IRF was on the ground within 48hrs. The first deployment was sudden and showed that the ADF could make an immediate impact as per your scenario Todjaeger. The 2nd time round navy as well as army assets were sent in with only 2 days of rising tension, although the results of the election were probabley considered and contingencies created.

The ADF also has deployed to East Timor with nearly 1000 personel in less then 2 weeks with a total of 2200 current, although they will start returning within next few weeks. The RAN ship HMAS Kanimbla was returning from excercises and was re-routed to the ET coast on standby after rioting started. from then, northern forces went on alert and IRF as well as other units were on standby orders. 4 battalion had commandos on the ground from the word "go" and had the airport as well as surrounding areas secure within the next 24hrs, before several more companies of troops flew in. APCs were in dili the following day.
With the new C-17s, with the first to be delievered by December, the ADF will have a better lift capacity to deploy beyond oceania. The LHDs will also increase the number of forces able to deploy in a short time.
The rapidness with which we can deploy within the region can expand to the world, with troops being able to deploy within 4 days. The moving of 3RAR to Adelaide, and to become a mechanized battalion, will create a direct rail corridor to Darwin, enabling the 3rd a faster route to ships in the north.
The ADF future outlook statergy is for small, mobile well equiped units able to deploy at short notice anywhere, anytime. With the world requiring this, the ADF is gearing up to be ready for any challenge when and if needed.
 
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