Communist tactics in Korean War
- Thread starter simonov
- Start date
Perhaps the most well known tactic of the Chinese during the Korean conflict was the infiltration assault, sometimes confused with the human wave tactic. Both tactics share some similiarities, but are vastly different in terms of execution.
The PVA troops would dug in during the day to protect themselves from UN air attacks and sneak pass enemy ground units using the cover of darkness at night. They would encircle a small portion of enemy forces and attack with full force at dawn. This creates the illusion for the opposing side that they are being swarmed from every direction and thus lose the will to fight. Although causing large number of casualties for the attackers, this manoevure was quite effective at the time. The Vietnamese National Liberation Front(Vietcong) later adapted this tactic against the Americans.
Hope that helped
The PVA troops would dug in during the day to protect themselves from UN air attacks and sneak pass enemy ground units using the cover of darkness at night. They would encircle a small portion of enemy forces and attack with full force at dawn. This creates the illusion for the opposing side that they are being swarmed from every direction and thus lose the will to fight. Although causing large number of casualties for the attackers, this manoevure was quite effective at the time. The Vietnamese National Liberation Front(Vietcong) later adapted this tactic against the Americans.
Hope that helped
my grandpa fought in this war..... On the other side though lol.
During this time, the Chinese were pretty much brain watched. They did whatever their supieriors told them too and they were not afraid of death.
Lets not forget the inpressive air war, China downed and crashed many American planes down. Pretty impressive considering China did have a air force before the war.
During this time, the Chinese were pretty much brain watched. They did whatever their supieriors told them too and they were not afraid of death.
Lets not forget the inpressive air war, China downed and crashed many American planes down. Pretty impressive considering China did have a air force before the war.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
Well, in the case of that, They must be do many and so many suicide attack like what Sovyet tropps do in Eastern Front and Japanese do in Pacific Theatre. So the casualties must be high. But after the war casualties on the Communist side almost same with Allied 1 million casualties KIA,WIA and MIA.
Even PRC admitted they only had 400,000 casualties... and the others is NK. Its similar with Allied where the SK casualties almost reach 600,000, and the other is US and its Allied
Even PRC admitted they only had 400,000 casualties... and the others is NK. Its similar with Allied where the SK casualties almost reach 600,000, and the other is US and its Allied
""""Lets not forget the inpressive air war, China downed and crashed many American planes down. Pretty impressive considering China did have a air force before the war"""
Actually UN forces shot the snot out of the communist air forces despite the fact we had inferior airplanes much of the time. The ratio was in the 10 to 1 area.
Actually UN forces shot the snot out of the communist air forces despite the fact we had inferior airplanes much of the time. The ratio was in the 10 to 1 area.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #8
Actually UN forces shot the snot out of the communist air forces despite the fact we had inferior airplanes much of the time. The ratio was in the 10 to 1 area.
According the ACIG the real which close is 4:1 until 5:1. You have to remember that Russian pilot involve the war too. And they top Scorer Yevgeni Pepeleyev, 23 kills achieve more than allied pilots.
Some people in Russian believe that US covered her victim in the name of wreckage
According the ACIG the real which close is 4:1 until 5:1. You have to remember that Russian pilot involve the war too. And they top Scorer Yevgeni Pepeleyev, 23 kills achieve more than allied pilots.
Some people in Russian believe that US covered her victim in the name of wreckage
There are two versions of air to air kills. The Russians counted their air casualties accuratly but nobody knows how many NK planes were downed. But I would agree over-all its in the 5 to 1 to 10 to 1 range,"tho probably closer to 5 to 1".
Either way we basicaly dominated the air. The Russian pilots were dangerous adversarys but the NK and Chinese pilots sucked. Even flying the fabulous Mig-15 they got slaughtered. I love that airplane BTW.
Either way we basicaly dominated the air. The Russian pilots were dangerous adversarys but the NK and Chinese pilots sucked. Even flying the fabulous Mig-15 they got slaughtered. I love that airplane BTW.
chinawhite
New Member
Human waves were a myth
Battle of Huai-Hai. 500,000 american trained KMT soldiers vs 400,000-500,000 communist soldiers. The communist soldiers used the same tactics they would later use in korea to completely destroy the american soldiers and not suffering high KIA.
Chinas tactics were never human waves. they were lanuched at night and was all about infiltration and psychological effects of being surrounded. Blowing bugles to spread fear and sometimes soft music would be used to play with your head. If you look at the battles china actually fought it was againest the south koreans instead of the americans which would noramally retreat and call in air strikes. If you would read up on communist tactics or read the civil war battles between 1947-1949 you would have a clear idea of what tactics were actually used and how effective they were.
When the chinese entered they only had 270,000 men, the 13th and 9th group armies and three articllery divisions. While most if not all western sources put the figure of over 300,000 and sometimes even 500,000. Over-estimation?
----------------------------------------------------------------
And about air to air loses the americans after the war only stated 379 kills not 800+
But least we forget the Mig-15s went after the bombers while the F-86 went after the Mig-15 thus the heavy armnement
Battle of Huai-Hai. 500,000 american trained KMT soldiers vs 400,000-500,000 communist soldiers. The communist soldiers used the same tactics they would later use in korea to completely destroy the american soldiers and not suffering high KIA.
Chinas tactics were never human waves. they were lanuched at night and was all about infiltration and psychological effects of being surrounded. Blowing bugles to spread fear and sometimes soft music would be used to play with your head. If you look at the battles china actually fought it was againest the south koreans instead of the americans which would noramally retreat and call in air strikes. If you would read up on communist tactics or read the civil war battles between 1947-1949 you would have a clear idea of what tactics were actually used and how effective they were.
When the chinese entered they only had 270,000 men, the 13th and 9th group armies and three articllery divisions. While most if not all western sources put the figure of over 300,000 and sometimes even 500,000. Over-estimation?
----------------------------------------------------------------
And about air to air loses the americans after the war only stated 379 kills not 800+
But least we forget the Mig-15s went after the bombers while the F-86 went after the Mig-15 thus the heavy armnement
Human waves were/are the western version of the fact that the Chinese fought a very smart, tightly disciplined, and ruthless, ground war. Also hidden from Americans was the sheer stupidity and arrogance of its military commanders. Including MacArthur! Who had requested a number of nuclear weapons without even knowing we didn't have that many, indeed by then the Soviets had more then we did. The Brits warned us the Chinese were coming but we were to arrogant to listen.
The Korean war is the ultimate example of what happens when you allow your military power to evaporate. At the beginning of the war the US army was a paper tiger. And it wasnt much better at the end of it. The ROK army was almost totally worthless. If it wasnt for air power, artillery, and our navy, we would have been wiped out by the Chinese. Its also suspected the Chinese had limited aims in Korea, or, suffered from timidity by its commanders.
The Korean war is the ultimate example of what happens when you allow your military power to evaporate. At the beginning of the war the US army was a paper tiger. And it wasnt much better at the end of it. The ROK army was almost totally worthless. If it wasnt for air power, artillery, and our navy, we would have been wiped out by the Chinese. Its also suspected the Chinese had limited aims in Korea, or, suffered from timidity by its commanders.
The "Human Wave" tactic is a complete myth, yes, COMPLETE. The closest and most accurate synonym should be large-scale organized/tactical offensive. If you read any books written about the Korean War or analyzed Chinese communist military tactics and history you would realize that nothing in the form of "waves" of chinese charging in unorganized fashion like brain-washed monkeys ever occurred.
A few obvious and logical evidence to disprove this myth are as follows:
if "human wave" tactics as perceived by stereotype were in fact used. The casualty rate would be millions and millions. In WW2 Stalingrad, it is recorded that the Soviet Union did in fact use "human wave" tactics, therefore the casualty rate for that single battle area alone numbered in the millions. Western and Chinese sources place Chinese casualty rates in Korea at 700,000 maximum and 300-500,000 minimum, and this is for an entire war.
the communist leaders and commanders defeated the Japanese, the KMT, and US to some extent with only minimal equipment and manpower in many cases. The "human wave" tactic was never a very feasible strategy. Read Mao's guerilla tactics writings and you'll clearly see the doctrines elaborating on how to conduct warfare in disadvantaged postions, "human wave" tactics are nowhere in any of those books.
so in conclusion: organized large-scale attacks that often resulted in huge casualties (according to western standards), yes. Brainless waves of chinese charging with sticks and stones. No.
A few obvious and logical evidence to disprove this myth are as follows:
if "human wave" tactics as perceived by stereotype were in fact used. The casualty rate would be millions and millions. In WW2 Stalingrad, it is recorded that the Soviet Union did in fact use "human wave" tactics, therefore the casualty rate for that single battle area alone numbered in the millions. Western and Chinese sources place Chinese casualty rates in Korea at 700,000 maximum and 300-500,000 minimum, and this is for an entire war.
the communist leaders and commanders defeated the Japanese, the KMT, and US to some extent with only minimal equipment and manpower in many cases. The "human wave" tactic was never a very feasible strategy. Read Mao's guerilla tactics writings and you'll clearly see the doctrines elaborating on how to conduct warfare in disadvantaged postions, "human wave" tactics are nowhere in any of those books.
so in conclusion: organized large-scale attacks that often resulted in huge casualties (according to western standards), yes. Brainless waves of chinese charging with sticks and stones. No.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #13
I think the human wave is west propaganda. Lets think, if they do it, it must be the casualties very high. The US estimated that Communist side lost between 1-1.5 million. But in other side, the allied casualties is high too its 1 million (SK,US, British and other allied, with SK casualties around 70-80%). So in this case show that the Korean soldier is very suffer becoz they lost very much both NK and SK.
The PRC admitted their lost is 300,000, so the other is NK. So in Allied side the SK casualties is high, around 500-600,000 (KIA,WIA and MIA)
So lets say
Aliied casualties is 900-1 million VS Communist is 1-1.5 million. Its mean 1:1.2
Comparing with eastern Front Casualties in WW II
German and its Allied is around 2-2.5 million (German alone is 1.6) VS Russia is 12 million. Means 1: 4.5. Bcoz Russian doing the Human wave face the effective MG-34/42 MG. U can see it in Enemy in The Gates
The PRC admitted their lost is 300,000, so the other is NK. So in Allied side the SK casualties is high, around 500-600,000 (KIA,WIA and MIA)
So lets say
Aliied casualties is 900-1 million VS Communist is 1-1.5 million. Its mean 1:1.2
Comparing with eastern Front Casualties in WW II
German and its Allied is around 2-2.5 million (German alone is 1.6) VS Russia is 12 million. Means 1: 4.5. Bcoz Russian doing the Human wave face the effective MG-34/42 MG. U can see it in Enemy in The Gates
"Human wave" sounds more like a for of predjudice than anything, however:
I read a book which said that General Giap was pressured by his Chineese advisers to adopt a "human wave approach" early in the battle of Dien Bien Phu. It resulted in huge losses and General Giap thus abandoned that approach.The book was from the US military history press; when (if) I get it back i'll post the details.
The Japanese were also reported to utilize this approach in the port arthur campaigns. This mind set was actually in vouge in Europe up to the outbreak of ww1 so perhaps this mindset came from Europe
When infantrymen are made to charge to their death, when does it get classified as a human wave? WW1 and Eastern front in WW2 saw a lot of this going on, because the commanders hadn't any better options at that time. Same thing at Omaha beach in ww2; the supporting tanks got sunk so the US troops had to assault the bunkers unsupported. Would that be considered "human wave"? or does the term 'Human wave" only apply when non western soldiers are involved?The Japanese were also reported to utilize this approach in the port arthur campaigns. This mind set was actually in vouge in Europe up to the outbreak of ww1 so perhaps this mindset came from Europe
The USA had a little over 54,000 KIA in the Korean war. ROK about 228,000, the rest of the coalition had negligible losses. We don't know how many troops the Chinese and NK lost because they are both communist nations and exercise complete control over such things. Its estimated the Chinese had about 500,000 KIA in the Korean war. We did shoot them to pieces despite their successes.
And success they had. Their decision to use such tactics, often at night, was actually quite brilliant. Its wrong to think serious historians in America equate the term "human wave" with racist visions of mindless yellow hordes charging by the millions with sticks. We study history more seriously then that.
The Chinese were civilized when our Euro-ancestors were cooking each other at the stake and going for decades without a bath. There is plenty to admire about Eastern culture and their infantry tactics in Korea is one of them.
And success they had. Their decision to use such tactics, often at night, was actually quite brilliant. Its wrong to think serious historians in America equate the term "human wave" with racist visions of mindless yellow hordes charging by the millions with sticks. We study history more seriously then that.
The Chinese were civilized when our Euro-ancestors were cooking each other at the stake and going for decades without a bath. There is plenty to admire about Eastern culture and their infantry tactics in Korea is one of them.
Well, the official Chinese statistics is that there were around 100K KIA and also quite a huge number that froze to death and died through other incidents. They listed the total casualty at around 400K. Not really that unreasonable, since a normal casaulty to KIA ratio at that time is around 4:1. Also, it was mentionned in most Chinese history textbooks that China had a total of 2 million soldiers that it was rotating in Korea. It probably on average had just over 1 million soldier serving near the front line at any particular time. Some of the listed casaulty rates in American books for PVA was around 900K. That seemed a little too high considering there were only 2 million soldiers that actually participated. Anyhow, it's been said that misreporting casualty is a major offense in PLA, so the numbers provided by PLA is probably accurate.
As for tactics, I believe they often blew whistles and made loud noises in night times to create the illusion of a huge attack. Another thing that they often tried was the bunker warfare instead of trench warfare. Again, many of the tactics that PLA used were really developed against the Japanese.
As for the air battles, it was amazing that PLAAF even shot down any USAF fighter. The stories I heard was that PLAAF "pilots" mostly had no flying experiences before sent up in the sky vs USAF. Also, they basically followed no tactics of any sort. Basically, your typical recipe for disaster.
As for tactics, I believe they often blew whistles and made loud noises in night times to create the illusion of a huge attack. Another thing that they often tried was the bunker warfare instead of trench warfare. Again, many of the tactics that PLA used were really developed against the Japanese.
As for the air battles, it was amazing that PLAAF even shot down any USAF fighter. The stories I heard was that PLAAF "pilots" mostly had no flying experiences before sent up in the sky vs USAF. Also, they basically followed no tactics of any sort. Basically, your typical recipe for disaster.
regarding human wave "myth"
the human wave attacks were not a myth. suggest you read an account of the battle of kapyong, chinese and nth korean troops attacked in such numbers and with such ferocity that australian and canadian troops didnt even have time to reload magazines for their rifles,smle,s simply loading one round at a time in the breach. enemy dead were found attacking with everything from rifles to pitchforks. the bravery of the communists is not at question, but the tactics were simple out number and over welhme.
the human wave attacks were not a myth. suggest you read an account of the battle of kapyong, chinese and nth korean troops attacked in such numbers and with such ferocity that australian and canadian troops didnt even have time to reload magazines for their rifles,smle,s simply loading one round at a time in the breach. enemy dead were found attacking with everything from rifles to pitchforks. the bravery of the communists is not at question, but the tactics were simple out number and over welhme.
Yes, we live in a Politically correct world where terms like "Human wave" are considered abhorrent. I use to work with a Korea veteran who survived such attacks. He told me the Chinese would charge in the dark of night, so dark you could see nothing. They would come in these massed waves that under flares would make them look like an army of ants coming at them. They "Yank soldiers" would shoot them like ten pins and still they would keep coming.
Then the Chinese would be on them and in the dark of night nobody knew who was who. The Chinese would often just run past them most of the time, since they couldn't see either. Come daybreak the Yanks would often find themselves way ahead of their "new" lines. He told me the key to their survival was to stay intact as a unit. Every soldier was under orders to shoot another soldier who caught bug-out. As long as they stayed together they had a chance to survive. Come daylight their tanks and artillery would find large pockets of Chinese and just decimate them. But a lot of Yank rifle companies just dissapeared from the map as well.
Still, the tactic took away most of their enemies superiority in firepower. The Russians used human waves too as the Nazis were marching into their country and they were busy moving much of their industrial assets east. Of course later the Soviet army was remade into a highly professional, mechanized, army. Nowadays I'd bet human waves at night would have limited effectivness against modern technology. Warplanes and Helicopters "prefer" to fly at night nowadays, soldiers can see at night, artillery is much more precise, and a current infantry company can pour out much more lead.
Or should we call them "massed infantry" tactics:
Then the Chinese would be on them and in the dark of night nobody knew who was who. The Chinese would often just run past them most of the time, since they couldn't see either. Come daybreak the Yanks would often find themselves way ahead of their "new" lines. He told me the key to their survival was to stay intact as a unit. Every soldier was under orders to shoot another soldier who caught bug-out. As long as they stayed together they had a chance to survive. Come daylight their tanks and artillery would find large pockets of Chinese and just decimate them. But a lot of Yank rifle companies just dissapeared from the map as well.
Still, the tactic took away most of their enemies superiority in firepower. The Russians used human waves too as the Nazis were marching into their country and they were busy moving much of their industrial assets east. Of course later the Soviet army was remade into a highly professional, mechanized, army. Nowadays I'd bet human waves at night would have limited effectivness against modern technology. Warplanes and Helicopters "prefer" to fly at night nowadays, soldiers can see at night, artillery is much more precise, and a current infantry company can pour out much more lead.
Or should we call them "massed infantry" tactics
:what the Chinese side said to counter that is that the Americans would have no idea how many of them are coming by because there was so much confusion in the dead of the night. Again, China obviously did something that's different from what the Koreans did, because they stayed as an effective unit, whereas North Koreans were totally destroyed. If there were only 2 million PVA in the entire war, then that's not anymore than the North Koreans. If they used the same tactics as the North Koreans, they would've met the same fate.