The Afganistan Game

su-30mki

Banned Member
Afganistan holds very much importance in south east asia's statregic map.

When Afghan interim leader Hamid Karzai came to New Dehli last week, he had more on his mind than pleas for economic support. The Afghan leader also suggested that Indian troops help train a new Afghan army, something that is causing consternation in Pakistan and other neighboring countries.

In the next round of the "Great Game," competing interests are gearing up to clash once more in the "rooftop of the world," the Hindu Kush mountains. At the turn of the 20th century, the game was played by Britain and czarist Russia for control of Central Asia. In the 1980s, the game was about religious identity, with the US encouraging Saudi- and Iranian-financed Islamists to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Today, the game is about oil and settling old scores.


Presumably, Karzai is trying to keep Afghanistan a player - not the football. His success will largely depend on maximizing the world's donor dollars while minimizing foregin interference.

"The hope for Karzai is to multiply some of the money, because in history, every single Afghan power has been determined by his ability to deliver money to the provinces," says Frederic Grare, director of the Center for Human Sciences, a French-funded think tank in New Delhi.

One of the tough parts of the new Great Game is figuring out who is on which team. Russia and the US want to limit the spread of Islamic extremist groups in Central Asia, but Russia is concerned about America's growing military presence in the region. Pakistan and Iran want to see a peaceful Afghanistan, so that millions of Afghan refugees in their territories can return home. The US, which had Iran's vocal support in its war on the Taliban, now calls Iran part of an Axis of Evil.

Complicating things further is the growing importance of the region's oil. The US, Pakistan, and India would like to create an oil pipeline through Afghanistan that pumps oil from the Central Asian states of Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan with ports in Pakistan and markets beyond.

Iran and Russia seem less enthused about a pipeline. Some diplomats say Tehran's support of Afghan renegade warlord Ismail Khan in Herat is part of its plan to prevent an Afghan pipeline project and protect Iran's influence in the global oil market.

But for now, the question of training an Afghan national army is raising tensions most. Whichever country gets the role will also gain a measure of diplomatic influence in Afghanistan. India appears to be Karzai's first choice, and this worries Pakistan, which backed the Taliban.

Over the weekend, international peacekeepers began training the first 600 men in what they hope will be the model for a future multiethnic army. Some 200 Afghan commanders were due to hold talks in Kabul this week on the shape of the future army.

Indian military sources say India is perfectly suited for the task of training the army, which could number 50,000 to 60,000. Like Afghanistan, India's Army is composed of many ethnic and religious groups, and often fights in alpine conditions.

"Because our languages are based on Persian, it's very easy for Indian personnel ... to learn the language," says Lt. Gen. Gurbir Mansingh, the retired quartermaster general of the Indian Army. "In addition, we have an impeccable record on peacekeeping. American peacekeepers were in Somalia and they botched it."

But while some experts say India's training should be limited to inviting a few officers to its war colleges in New Delhi or to its alpine warfare camp in Kashmir, others say India will only gain influence if it has Indian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan.

"The only way for India to get influence is by having a physical military presence," says Rahul Bedi, a New Delhi-based analyst for Jane's Defense Weekly. "Right now, it has Bollywood movies and hospitals."

Yet, others argue that letting any neighboring country train the Afghan army would destabilize the region. "The training needs to be done by someone external to the region," says Grare. "I would much rather see the Swiss or the French do it, but whoever it is must be nonthreatening for all the regional actors. Nobody wants an unfriendly neighbor."

link:http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0306/p10s01-wosc.html

What do you guys have to say about the future of modus-operandi in this region?
 
A couple of things here.
-The article is from March 2002.
-The south is still a problem.
- Afghanistan hasn't gotten the aid it was promised to rebuild its infastructure.
- No one is going to build a energy pipeline through Afghanistan if the security situation don't improve.
 

su-30mki

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
The New York Times today ran a news article on how the recent upsurge of violence in Afghanistan is based out of Pakistan. And how Pakistan’s effort in stopping the training, the financial backing, the supply of equipment to terrorists is stopgap at best.

We’ve all heard time and time again - about how relatively impotent Pakistan is in stopping dubious activities on its terrorist infested, wild, tribal lands of its North West Frontier Province. Given the social, political, religious and historical nature of the tribes that inhabit those lands, it is understandable why it would be difficult for the government of Pakistan to really have control as to what transpires there.

Having said that, Pakistan’s intents towards a non- Taliban Afghanistan have always been circumspect. Readers need to understand Pakistan’s predominant national psyche. Pakistan, for all its fragmentation and imminent threats of breaking up along sectarian lines, has survived on a common national platform of paranoia and hatred towards India. It has manifested in the three wars fought over Kashmir, it manifested itself in Musharraf’s inspired mis-adventure to take Kargil from India using insurgents and regular Pakistan Army troops, it manifests itself in Pakistan opposing any pro-India action in any world forum - be it the United Nations or the World Bank.

So given this almost religious obsession of hatred of India as an entity (strangely enough, not as a people - because of the cultural affinity), Afghanistan has always been a country that Pakistan has looked at to providing strategic depth against a much larger, much more powerful and increasingly much more prosperous India.

Pakistan, especially since the reign of Gen. Zia Ul-Haq ( a close ally of the United States, a military dictator and a rabid India hater) has actively encouraged and incubated the growth of these fundamentalist Islamist forces - which they wanted to engage in a low intensity war against India in Kashmir. Which is why, it found natural alignment with the Taliban government of Afghanistan - it was one of the two countries in the world that recognized the Taliban government. It offered Pakistan of what it needed the most - strategic depth against India as also the ability to tap into the millions of disaffected, fundamentalist Muslim youth to go to Kashmir to fight the “holy war”. And this had been going on for 15 years till September 11th 2001.

Hence, now, post September 11th, to have a government in Afghanistan that is obviously close to India is antithetical to Pakistan’s historical and geopolitical goals.

September 11th forced “alignment” of Pakistan with the United States to fight the “war on terror”. So consequently, now, Pakistan is caught between a rock and a hard place - almost literally as much metaphorically. On the East, Pakistan has India - a country with an economy on fire, with vast intellectual capital, poised on a historical transformation of the nation. On the west, it has Afghanistan with a moderate government desperately trying to strengthen its foothold. Both countries are democracies. And Pakistan is stuck in the middle of the two. With a military dictatorship.

And to make matters worse, now the fundamentalists are getting restless because of Pakistan’s much vaunted cooperation with the United States. And the United States is getting impatient because Pakistan’s military junta - specifically its rather loud, dramatic, clownish and ineffectual president has been promising a lot and delivering very little. Yes, it would occasionally bomb its own country ( with American drones every now and then - specifically before a high-profile state visit or before an election in the United States) - but generally, very little.

And the funny thing is Pakistan is a punjabi dominated society - and punjabis are very liberal, rather hedonistic people. Just goes on to show, what a lack of democracy and very bad long term strategy can do to a nation.

Link:http://neurojava.wordpress.com/2006...-in-afghanistan-violence-a-lesson-in-history/
 

su-30mki

Banned Member
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The cultivation of poppy in afganistan is a serious problem to the world as 80% of the drugs found our neighbourhoods is more likely to come from afganistan.It is evident from the ground situation that the ppl of the place are forced to grow opium because of poverty and thats makes afganistan all the more important speaking not just in startergic terms.The US war of iraq has clinched the limelight away from afganistan, but thetruth remains the same and is about to get worse.


February 2004, Rome -- Eliminating opium production in Afghanistan will only be successful if poverty and unemployment are reduced at the same time, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) said today.

FAO is requesting $25.5 million to finance agricultural development projects over the next five years in four main poppy producing provinces -- Badakhshan, Helmand, Kandahar and Nangarhar, targeting around 1.5 million people.

"We do not have the 'super crop' at hand to convince farmers to give up poppy production immediately," said Angelika Schückler of the FAO Agricultural Management, Marketing and Finance Service.

"Rural poverty and the lack of income are the main reasons why farmers produce opium," she said.

"It will take a long-term commitment and probably more than a decade to create alternative income opportunities. The project aims to rehabilitate agricultural infrastructure in some of the main poppy producing areas and to boost horticulture, livestock and cash crop production in order to create alternative livelihoods for small farmers, landless workers and vulnerable groups," she added.

FAO's proposal

FAO proposed a set of interventions that could create alternative income opportunities and reduce the dependence on poppy production. FAO's proposal is based on the National Drug Control Strategy.

"Farmers need inputs for orchards, forestry, irrigation and livestock, as well as access to credit and training. Infrastructure, health and education services need to be restored," Schückler said.

Many tree nurseries need to be restored to respond to large-scale demand for planting materials. The construction of small irrigation dams is important where farmers are facing restricted water availability -- for example, in Kandahar, where the main water supply reservoir is silted up after many years of drought. This has degraded once-thriving orchards in the area. Improved access, especially for women, to animal health services would improve livestock productivity and production and provide women with income.

FAO also proposed to intensify horticultural production through training orchard farmers in post-harvest technologies and in managing vegetable storage facilities in each province.

Livestock farmers should have access to credit to buy sheep and each province should have a feed mill. FAO would also extend its successful income-generating poultry projects for women.

Niche crops suited to the unique Afghan environment (herbs and spices, mulberries and sericulture, essential oils etc) should be developed in close collaboration with farmers' communities. A range of public and private employment-creating initiatives could include cash-for-work reforestation programmes, fruit and vegetable handling centres, collection and processing of livestock products (milk, eggs) and the promotion of fisheries. Better access to credit, farm management and business advisory services and market research would also be needed.

Poppy is popular

Afghanistan is the world's largest opium producer, providing almost three-quarters of global opium production. According to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC), poppy production amounted to 3 600 tonnes in 2003. Recent trends indicate that poppy cultivation is spreading further into remote areas. Around 1.7 million people, 7 percent of the population, are directly involved in poppy production.

Poppy is only produced on approximately 1 percent (around 80 000 ha in 2003) of the total arable land in the country. The bulk of poppy production takes place on irrigated land. The province of Nangarhar is currently the largest poppy cultivating area.

Whereas the majority of Afghan farmers cultivate opium poppy for reasons of poverty and lack of viable alternative incomes, most of the profits remain with national and international drug traffickers.

Opium as a product is attractive to farmers because it is durable and easy to store and carry to the market, FAO said. Opium markets operate like spot and future markets, with traders providing credit to farmers for future production.

According to UNODC estimates almost 500 000 people are globally involved in the Afghan opium trade.

With an average price for raw opium now at $283 per kg and expected yields of up to 40 kg per ha, poppy cultivation is much more profitable for farmers than the production of other commodities. In 2003, poppy cultivation generated a gross income of around $1 billion, around $3 900 per opium-growing family. This compares to an average national wage of $2 per day.

"Cultivating poppy means that farmers have a relatively secure cash income, at the same time it provides access to land for poor farmers and the landless. It often offers the only source of credit and inputs and well-needed work opportunities," Schückler said.

For women, who often are allowed to sell opium residues after the main harvest, poppy provides a rare and lucrative source of income.

Agricultural sector is extremely weak

"Opium production offers immediate and stable incomes in an environment which is often very hostile to agricultural production," Angelika Schückler said.

"The agricultural sector is extremely weak, with poor services, marketing systems, roads and communication facilities, a widespread lack of inputs such as seeds, fertilizers and basic tools, and degraded irrigation and water storage facilities," she added.

"Only if poppy production is seriously cut back through strong law enforcement and if the overall production environment improves significantly, will farmers finally switch to alternative crops," she said.

"We will probably face some resistance, but I'm sure that working closely with the Ministries concerned, the private sector, non-governmental organizations and other international partners, the fight against opium production in Afghanistan can be won," Schückler said.

link:
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2004/36107/index.html
 

funtz

New Member
This be from stale newspapers from da basement.

As of now the Indian involvement in Afghanistan is

- GREF(General Reserve Engineering Forces or Border roads Organisation) constructing roads, hospitals etc.(various infrastructure projects).

- ITBP(paramilitary) providing security to the officers and personnel of GREF.

- Archaeological survey of India providing training and support in setting up an archaeological society (funded by the UN) in Afghanistan, and simultaneously working on a lot of restoration and reclaiming stolen articles.

- Military Supplies (only small arms and ammunition) to the Afghan forces.

- Aid in the form of money, food, tents, medicines, vehicles, doctors etc.

- Training to Afghanistan officials (police, administrators etc.)

Search for the links yourself they have been going on since 2002, Its no new news my man.

Many nations are carrying out similar activity, what is needed are sunds and lots of them, India is doing all she can however USA and EU have to do a lot more.

As for Indian and Afghanistan political links, as of now they are good as most of the people who hold pockets of power in Afghanistan have had an involvement with India for a long time (from the time Taliban started the armed movement), and these links will be maintained i suspect through the necessary means.

However i feel that we have to send in more military troops (regular army and army medical core, air-force etc.) in order to ensure even a bigger role in the helping Afghans shape a future.
As we have had good relations with Afghanistan this will not be a politically controversial move as even in India Taliban is recognized as an terrorist organisation which had provided support to Indian separatist militants, however the policy of only working under the "Blue" cap is stopping this.
 

mysterious

New Member
Correction: Taliban did not 'start' the armed 'movement' in Afghanistan. They were a reaction to the warring tribes of Hazaras, Tajiks, Pashtuns and other ethnicities who could never come to a unanimous decision on anything.

Its all about politics in Afghanistan. Taliban are labelled terrorists while the terrorists of Northern Alliance sit as ministers and share power in the Afghan government. Has anyone bothered to look at the past activities of some of those in power? Pakistan is made a scapegoat by accusing it of supporting the Taliban, lets also start discussing India's role in heavily supporting the Northern Alliance and its affiliates which fare no better than the Taliban.

Mods: I know this post is a bit political but it arose out of necessity to correct the balance of discussion in this thread. Most posts by 'su30mki' are political and are flame baits so I do not understand the reason behind keeping this thread open.
 

funtz

New Member
Taliban was created out of the power gap in Afghanistan which was filled mostly by different warlords (some still survive), over the course of time there was a resistance against the mostly Pashtun tribe dominated Taliban in a multi ethnic Afghanistan.

And they did start an armed movement it was not as if they were offering roses and candy to the different warlords. The reason for the movement are a different matter.

From the time they started to gain power in Afghanistan, most of the Indian authorities were aware of there incline towards the separatist groups in India, and as the separatist terrorists started opening up training camps in Afghanistan, India begin supporting the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan with a greater purpose than before.

This was done with the knowledge of all, there were no hidden pages, and every one knew that India had an active military hospital in Tajikistan especially for this purpose.

India was not alone, Iran and Tajikistan (and some other nations) actively supported them, and labeled the Taliban as a terrorist organization.

Where as Taliban was recognized diplomatically as afghan government by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates.

After US intervention most of the administrative posts and political power rests with the UIF or northern alliance, which is better for Indian interest as long as sepratist organisations do not start to get training in Afghanistan, which can happen, in which case well what can one do, however the job is to make things difficult.

Proxy war is not new to this world, all nations have engaged in it at some point or other.

Pakistans support for Taliban back then was in Pakistans interest, it was nothing good or bad, taliban for all its evils provided Pakistan with a more stable neighbour which was more supportive towards Pakistan.

India's support for the UIF was in her best interest.
That is the short of it.

As a result of this involvement Indian intelligence organizations have an easier job at hand (in terms of operating from Afghanistan), and many Indian government organization are involved in helping Afghan authorities in whatever way possible.

I personally believe that sending in more men, money, and weapons to ensure that the current administration (which is more supportive towards India than the aforementioned Taliban) stays in power, is a good Idea, getting involved militarily is even better (however improbable).

All parties involved in Afghanistan have horrible human rights records, it is a well known fact, the Taliban are recognized as the worst of the lot, and they are not there to defend themselves, that’s the way history works.

After typing all of this, I too fail to see the point of this thread, there is nothing to be discussed here, as it is most of the posts by SU 30 MKI (so, made in russia customised for India) are copy paste of online materials and bring nothing to the table,

atleast change the topic to a more relevent should India get involved militarily in afghanistan.
 
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mysterious

New Member
Afghanistan has had a 'gun culture' since antiquity & the Taliban were simply an umbrella organization for all those tired of warlord infighting that plagued the entire country.

The resistance to Taliban did not come in to existence out of nothing-ness. The resistance was comprised of the same factions that the Taliban had thrown out of Kabul, they were pre-existing armed private militias of different warlords who engaged in the worst of terrorist activities.

Calling the warring factions/tribes that the Taliban disposed off as simply warlords and later insurgents is merely a silly attempt to sweep their terrorist activities under the carpet.

When words are used to label the Northen Alliance & the Taliban, it is imperative that the same vocabulary be used to define both. Both sets of groups are terrorists if that word is to be used otherwise, neither one is.

This implies that if one is to say Pakistan supported a terror group (Taliban), it is equally politically correct to say India was never behind and it did actively support the terrorist activities of Northern Alliance and now supports the BLA (Balochistan Liberation Army), a terrorist group that trains in Afghanistan and creates security problems in Pakistan.

Both countries follow a very narrow 'realist' view of International Relations and cannot gain widespread respect in the international arena without bringing about changes in their foreign policy mindsets.
 

funtz

New Member
again man you are reiterating what i said,
taliban was more pastun based, and it itself enlisted many warlords and mercaneries.
The trouble was they ended up supporting a lot of extremist organisations, one of them the Al Qaida ensured Talibans demise.

Both taliban and united islamic front had horrile human rights records, however Taliban has been thrown out of Afghanistan so untill they manage to come back they will have no say in the way history will remember them, that is how it works.
So it really doesnot matter what the taliban did or how and why they did it they will be remembered as religious tyrants who caused a lot of pain in Afghanistan, as long as the afghan administration remains the way it is.

as for indian involvement with the united islamic front it has always been a open government policy to support them, it was in our interest just like supporting Taliban was in Pakistans interest, nothing wrong about it, it is how things work in this world.
Being righteous is not necessarily a virtue, doing what ever the policy makers decide is in the nations best interest is the real aim.
 
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funtz

New Member
This thread has no head or tail so might as well continue this.

As for Indian support for BLA i do not have high level intelligence clearance to view such information in India, so i can neither deny or accept this.
May be you have all the necessary documents to catagorically state that there is a active Indian support.
If there is a support for this BLA, then i am sure it has been decided that this will be in national interest, again the policy makers decide these things.
 

mysterious

New Member
I am not arguing about what is right or wrong policy wise. Simply pointing out that you cannot have different vocab to describe the Taliban & the Northern Alliance (don't understand why you keep calling it 'United Islamic Front'??). They are part & parcel of the same terrorist ideology to enforce their views through violence & fear. Ironically, while one group is chastised, the other sits in power.
 

funtz

New Member
don't understand why you keep calling it 'United Islamic Front'
That is what they called themselves, Northern Allainance was more of a media term.
The deal is, from US point of view, the "Northern Alliance” is an ally and the “Taliban” is a terrorist organization, from Taliban point of view, “US” is the invader and “Northern Alliance” is the terrorist group.
Depends on which side of the gun you are on, they are terms no one cares about,

They are part & parcel of the same terrorist ideology to enforce their views through violence & fear. Ironically, while one group is chastised, the other sits in power.
That is because one supported the US and other supported the Al Qaida, had the Northern Alliance supported the Al Qaida, they would be the terrorists and Taliban would be the allies, just terms nothing more.
 

funtz

New Member
Well you were the one who said
"You cannot have different vocab to describe the Taliban & the
Northern Alliance " :)
Anyways, Taliban a lost cause, they had the choice to ditch Al-Qaida and continue on there merry way, they chose not to.
The current struggle that they are fueling, I do not know for how long can they keep it going, given that Afghanistan is the ground zero of this “war on terror”, no American president can in his right mind think of pulling troops out of Afghanistan, Iraq might be a different dish altogether, As long as an entity exists in Afghanistan that is named “Taliban”, the western forces are not going to give up.

Anyways sending in troops to Afghanistan for India will be a some what difficult for, however it can be done using some well established contacts, as it is there are a lot of government organizations working in Afghanistan. The problem will be finding the political solution to get the big parties to work together on this one.
 

su-30mki

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #16
What was the purpose of the war on Afghanistan.???

This is what I fail to ubderstand guys,,,, why did the Us declare war on afghanistan?? I guess it was war on terroe,, and soo.... is there no terror now in Afghanistan?80% of the world's poppy is now coming from Afghanistan and this has become the major fund raiser for the terror groups.And what I see is just a hand full of countries trying tho re-build afghanistan.What should be the startegy now for afghanistan?
 
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