Upg. T-72 or Arjun?

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
The vehicle in the images is an upgraded T-72M1 as shown at Def-Expo '99. In addition to a new fire control system (FCS), sights and laser warning receivers (visible on the turret's roof), the tank sported a comprehensive add-on reactive armour suite. A GPS (Global Positioning System) provides accurate positioning and navigation along a predefined path. It also indicates the velocity of movement and distance to the target designation status. An Integrated Fire Detection & Suppression System on the upgraded T-72M1 enables the crew to detect and control fire in the fighting or crew compartments. Mobility has been improved by the up-rated 12 cylinder V46-6 engine that develops 1000 hp at 2000 rpm. Limited trials were conducted in 1998. Two T-72M1s, with the up-rated engines, were offered for user trials in summer 1999. Upgrading the T-72M1, considered the 'workhorse tank' of the Indian Army, will go a long way in closing the technological gap between it and the newly-acquired T-90S MBT. The upgrade is expected to bring the T-72M1 to the latest battle worthy standards.

source: www.bharat-rakshak.com

Side view of the vehicle, showing more clearly it is a T-72


This, by contrast, is an Arjun Mk.1 (larger, 7 instead of 6 roadwheels, no explosive reactive armor tiles)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wasn't the Arjun initially a privately funded design by Vickers?

It looks very very british in design layout.
 

Winter

New Member
gf0012 said:
Wasn't the Arjun initially a privately funded design by Vickers?

It looks very very british in design layout.
Hmm...I see where you're heading but just to me the Arjun bears a strong external resemblence to the Leapord 2.

 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Winter said:
gf0012 said:
Wasn't the Arjun initially a privately funded design by Vickers?

It looks very very british in design layout.
Hmm...I see where you're heading but just to me the Arjun bears a strong external resemblence to the Leapord 2.
cripes, they could be brothers! have you got one of the Vickers?
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Vickers used to market a MBT that was essentially a Leopard II chassis with a different turret (Mk 7 it was acalled I believe). Was an attempt to circumvent German export controls as the German components (tank hull, powerpack etc) were non-lethal
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Damn they look so similar. Did Vickers make this tank which gf is talking about?? if yes then can somebody (probably Winter) post the picture??
Thanks.
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Vickers MK4 Valiant


Vickers Mark 7. This combined the 'universal turret' (for 105mm or 120mm gun) used on the Mk4 Valiant with the chassis, suspension and engine of the German Leopard 2.


As far as I know, Vickers did not design the Arjun, and it is not based on a Vickers design. It is possible that Vickers, like other tank manufacturers, was at some point consulted.

Don't be surprised by the similarity of Arjun with Leo II. The latter has other contemporary tanks, as is evident from the Japanese Type 90 MBT and the Italian Ariete

Type 90


Ariete
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Hmmm...that's kind of like the Challenger's turret.
Tatra is the Arjun MBT somehow based on the Leopard 2 (the one with that kind of turret...not the new one) ????
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Suposedly, the 'Arjun' is an entirely indigenous design. It began as a concept laid out by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment division of the Defence Research and Development Organization in India. It was the result of a Staff Requirement issued by the Indian Army in 1973 - 74 that incorprated the lessons learned during the previous wars with Pakistan in 1965 and 197. It was originally called MBT-80 and was to be introduced into service in the 1980's. The Indian Army subsequently revised the requirement several times and coupled with the difficulties in developing from scratch the infrastructure and technologies to build an MBT resulted in a series of delays.

The original Indian built engine could not generate enough power for the mobility requirement and in the hot environment of the Rajastan desert the engine performance degraded appreciably. Later prototypes were powered by german MTU 838 Ka-501 diesel engine but the installation of this raised the level of the engine deck to a point where the main armament could not depress below 0° when it was over the engine decks. In addition. due to the rising costs. the manufacturer was wanting to charge for future powerplants the search for a another powerplant, preferably Indian-made, was started.

The armament is an Indian-designed 120mm rifled tank gun. The tank gun is capable of firing APFSDS, HESH, HEAT, and HE rounds. The gun tube is made from electro-slag-refined steel, fitted with a fume extractor, and covered by a thermal sleeve. The 'Arjun' is armoured with 'Kanchan' armor. This armor is thought to be a 'composite reinforced fibre armour' similar in aspects to Chobham armour. The tank itself is fabricated from rolled homogenous steel plating to which the 'Kanchan' armor is affixed. The suspension includes the use of hydropneumatics similar to that on other contemporary tanks.

Less than 100 vehicles were built at the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi,which is near Madras. These currently equip a single Indian Army cavalry regiment.

Arjun Prototype


Production Arjun Mk.1


So, it at least uses a German engine, possibly complete powerpack. Perhaps there are some more German compunents used, but it does not appear there is a direct connection with Leopard II
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
The Leo 2:


The Japanese Type 90:



and The Arjun:


Damn this looks like a triplet meet.
The T-90 has the same cannon as that of the Leo2. The presence of the German engine in the Arjun also seems pretty fishy to me. But clearly all are very similar.
Looks like Rheinmetall is making big bucks selling its designs.
 

tatra

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
Damn this looks like a triplet meet.
The T-90 has the same cannon as that of the Leo2. The presence of the German engine in the Arjun also seems pretty fishy to me. But clearly all are very similar.
Looks like Rheinmetall is making big bucks selling its designs.
Well, not exactly. First, 120mm gun smoothbore guns are also manufactured by US, Isreal, Italy and others. Many of these are related to the Rheinmetal design but not all and not all directly. The french make a good 120mm smoothbore of their own design. So, it would not be a given that the gun on Type 90 was designed or manufactured in Germany.

Secondly, while the Arjun has a 120mm gun, it is a rifled gun like the guns on the British Chieftain, Challenger 1 and 2 whereas the Rheinmetal 120mm is a smooth bore gun. Same caliber, big difference. For example, only a rifled gun can fire the HESH rounds used by the Brits to great effect in the Gulf Wars.

Few Arjuns were built. Still, there are proposals to use the Arjun chassis to carry a South African T-6 155/52 turret, making for a cool looking piece of SP artillery called Bhim, and to use the complete Arjun tank turret to modernize some Indian army T72M1's (the modernized vehicle is called "Tank Ex")

Bhim


Tank-Ex
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
tatra said:
Well, not exactly. First, 120mm gun smoothbore guns are also manufactured by US, Isreal, Italy and others. Many of these are related to the Rheinmetal design but not all and not all directly. The french make a good 120mm smoothbore of their own design. So, it would not be a given that the gun on Type 90 was designed or manufactured in Germany.
True but the Japanese Type 90 uses the same 120 mm as the Leo 2 made by Rheinmetall.
 

Indus

New Member
ullu said:
whoa! thanks for the info.

indus everything isn't arjun. ;)
My bad.. I must have been looking at the wrong pic when I uploaded that T-72 cos i know the '72 and Arjun look nothing alike.. THe rest of the tanks labeled Arjun are correct... except maybe 1 or 2 that may be Tank-Ex .. they look very much alike.. Ex has Arjun turret and T-72 Chassis making it 10 tonnes lighter!!.. Ex is an experimental tank and is currently undergoing technical trials..
Can I ask the moderator/webmaster to please change my aforementioned mistakes.. T-72's labeled as Arjuns.. or you can delete them if you want.. they are the 2nd and 3rd pics in Indian tanks gallery.. Thanks.
 

darklegent

New Member
I may also add that I had read along time ago that the armor in the Arjun was comparable in DESIGN to the British armour( but then again tank armor is a closely guarded secret ). I am not sure but I guess if required I may still be be able to get the old url for the same(this bit of news is I guess about 5 years old).
 

backfire

New Member
Winter said:
Hmm...I see where you're heading but just to me the Arjun bears a strong external resemblence to the Leapord 2.

The Arjun might bear resemblence to the Leapord2 but I am not sure if it is actually as good.:confused:
 
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