Specwarops weapons

A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I'd thought I'd start a new thread that many people might find interesting. I'll start it off with the new US SOCOM (Special Operations Command) rifle, the FN SCAR rifle. This rifle is basically the upper part of the FN-FNC (upper receiver) mated to the lower half of the M4 (lower receiver). It will come ion either 5.56mm or 7.62mm NATO, depending on operator choice and mission requirements. It will also come with 3 separate barrel types, namely Carnine, Assault Rifle and Sniper Rifle variants. It is capable of accepting the full range of accessories normally employed by specwarries (night/Laser aiming devices, grenade launchers, shotguns, torches, low light and thermal scopes, and probably even a bayonet if necessary)...

Here's the pics. It even looks pretty...

http://world.guns.ru/assault/scar_l-1.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
AD, I saved the pics to my hard drive and attached them to each reply using the attachment feature. Now, we should be able to see without any problem.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
Cheers. What a pain though... :rolleyes:
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
The statement that the rifle can come with both 5.56 and 7.62mm NATO raise a question. Why would a SOF operator want to carry the heavier 7.62mm? It has a better stopping power than the 5.56mm but the rifle seems to be configured for MOUT with the tactical handle and M68 reflex sight. And it carrys a much bigger recoil than the 5.56mm which makes the weapon less appealing to a user.
 

highsea

New Member
Sniper configuration. The pics are with the reflex sight and tac handle, but it's a standard picatinny rail. Switch the receiver and barrel, put on a telescopic sight and bipod, and you've got your sniper rifle.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pathfinder-X said:
The statement that the rifle can come with both 5.56 and 7.62mm NATO raise a question. Why would a SOF operator want to carry the heavier 7.62mm? It has a better stopping power than the 5.56mm but the rifle seems to be configured for MOUT with the tactical handle and M68 reflex sight. And it carrys a much bigger recoil than the 5.56mm which makes the weapon less appealing to a user.
No, the recoil can be managed even with a calbre changeover. I worked on a ballistic weapons project approx 4 years ago where we were developing interchangeable calibres and recoil management.

I'm assuimng that they are using a variation of that technology.

The breech can be modified to manage the recoil, even if recoil is part of the firing process.

it's possible to get the recoil down significantly - if thats a required feature.
That technology was being shown to the US, UK, German and Italian weapons manufacturers, but IIRC it had not been formally disclosed.
 
Last edited:

highsea

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
The breech can be modified to manage the recoil, even if recoil is part of the firing process.
What's the basic principle involved GF? Basically there are only so many ways you can reduce recoil, e.g. collapsible stocks/recoil pads, gas management/porting/brakes, and extending the dwell times. Your comment makes me curious! What can you do with the breech to reduce recoil besides adding secondary springs to slow the bolt down after the round is ejected?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
highsea said:
What's the basic principle involved GF? Basically there are only so many ways you can reduce recoil, e.g. collapsible stocks/recoil pads, gas management/porting/brakes, and extending the dwell times. Your comment makes me curious! What can you do with the breech to reduce recoil besides adding secondary springs to slow the bolt down after the round is ejected?
3 components:

1) We used a gas controlled floating breech block. The floating breech is calibre specific. The chamber "receiver" is also redesigned.

2) Muzzlebreak and modifications to the barrel crown

3) Gas manipulation system midway down the barrel length.

I can't really expand upon an explanation of the technology for various reasons.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
highsea said:
Sniper configuration. The pics are with the reflex sight and tac handle, but it's a standard picatinny rail. Switch the receiver and barrel, put on a telescopic sight and bipod, and you've got your sniper rifle.
I'm not sure about that man. The barrel seems pretty short for a sniper rifle. Some american soliders in Afganistan have complained about the effective range of the M4 carbine over long ranges.

Gary mentioned that recoil issue can be addressed, but that still leaves the question of weight of the 7.62mm NATO rounds. 5.56mm calibre rounds are said to have better penetration and much lighter, even though it does not pack as much stopping power.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #12
Pathfinder, their are 3 different barrel lengths for this weapon as I outlined in my first post. The "sniper barrel" is not shown in these pics. The Sniper weapon woudl (I'd imagine) would predominently use the 7.62mm round as it is being designed to replace the M-14 in the sniper role. US SOCOM (and Marine Corps) personnel use M-14's to provide "rapid" Sniper fire out to a distance of about 800m's. It is not a purpose built sniper rifle, rather a handy semi-auto 7.62mm rifle that happens to be very accurate... I wonder if the SCAR sniper version would be capable of full auto fire as well? Not that you use that in a sniper role, but it might come in handy sometime...
 

highsea

New Member
There is a more extensive review of the weapon here:

http://world.guns.ru/assault/as70-e.htm

excerpt:
...the SCAR heavy (SCAR-H), which should be initially available in significantly more powerful 7.62x51 NATO chambering, and should be easily adaptable in the field to other chamberings. These other chamberings initially include the well-spread 7.62x39 M43 ammunition of the Soviet / Russian origins, and probably some others (like the proposed 6.8x43 Remington SPC cartridge, especially developed for US Special Forces).

The key idea of SCAR rifle system is that it will provide the Special Forces operators with wide variety of options, from short-barreled 5.56mm SCAR-L CQC variation, tailored for urban close combat, and up to long range 7.62x51 SCAR-H Sniper variant, as well as 7.62x39 SCAR-H, which will accept "battlefield pickup" AK-47/AKM magazines with 7.62 M43 ammunition, available during the operations behind the enemy lines. Both SCAR-L and SCAR-H shall be initially available in three versions, Standard (S), Close Quarters Combat (CQC) and Sniper Variant (SV). All these variants, regardless the caliber and exact configuration, will provide the operator with the same controls layout, same handling and maintenance procedures, and same optional equipment, such as sights, scopes, and other current and future attachments.

It is still unclear if the SCAR system will have quick detachable barrels for various configurations and lengths (from short-barreled CQC to long-barreled SV), or the barrels will be swapped along with entire upper receiver. The SCAR-H system also will have different type lower receivers, adapted to various types of ammunition and various types of magazines (i.e. 7.62mm NATO magazines and 7.62 M43 AK-type magazines, respectively). SCAR-L rifle will use improved M16-type magazines.

The trigger unit with ambidextrous safety-fire mode selector switch will allow for single shots and full automatic fire, apparently with no provisions for limited-length bursts mode. The charging handle could be easily installed on either side of the weapon, so the upper receiver has respective cuts on both sides. Top of the upper receiver is covered by the full-length integral Picatinny rail (MIL-STD 1913); additional Picatinny rails are mounted on both sides and below the handguards. Side-folding polymer buttstock is adjustable for length of pull, and is shaped to proved positive cheek rest. SCAR rifles apparently will be fitted with removable, adjustable iron sights, with folding diopter-type rear sight on the receiver rail, and folding front sight on the gas block. Any additional type of sighting equipment, necessary for current tasks, including telescope and night sights, can be installed using MIL-STD 1913 compatible mounts. Current prototypes of SCAR rifles do not have bayonet mounts, and, probably, will never have one.
It's kind of a sexy gun. I like the 4 rails, you can hang a lot of goodies off one of these bad boys. Apparently there is a 40mm grenade launcher with a fire control system that goes along with the options.

More here:

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=648
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Really nice. However being the novice that I am when it comes to rifles I have to ask a few questions which will clarify a couple of things for newbies like myself.

1) What is a rail? Is it the top portion where you can fit telescopic and/or night vision sights??

2) If answer to above question is a YES then I don't see 4 rails on this gun as highsea mentioned. If answer is NO then don't bother reading this question.... Oh wait you already read it. :p:

3) What is a carbine? I mean I know bullpup (magazine and firing pin located behind the trigger assembly) and the standard (magazine and firing pin located ahead of the trigger assembly) but I have no idea about what a carbine is.

Thanks in advance.
 

highsea

New Member
The rails are for mounting accessories, as you noted. The weapon has a top rail for the sight, and three rails on the forearm, one on each side for lights, laser pointer, etc, and one on the bottom for the handle, bipod, grenade launcher, etc. They are all a standard M1913 Picatinny spec. The two side rails on the forearm are short, only a couple inches long. You have to look close at the pic to see them.

A carbine is a short rifle. So usually you will see a collapsible or folding stock and a shorter barrel in carbine versions, e.g. M-16 vs. M-4.
 

Red aRRow

Forum Bouncer
Ok thanks a bunch highsea. Much appreciated.

This gun is really slick and looks like it means business. However what does it foresay for the XM-8??
I mean nowadays the U.S. SOCOM uses the M4A1 and the M-16 being the regular infantry weapon and as highsea mentioned above they are both the same except for the shortened barrel in the M4A1 so it means their parts and accessories are inter useable. However will this new SCAR have anything common with the XM-8 or is it something which is not that necessary and I am giving it too much thought than it deserves??? :D

Also I was under the impression that the XM-8 will be replacing the M4A1 in the first place.... does this mean the SCAR is probably just a stop gap?

I'm in my school boy mood of asking lotsa questions so bear with me. :lol3
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
Note this weapon is designed for special operation forces, and SOF personnal is not like regulars. They usually employ different weapons depending on the operator's preferrence. Even in cases they are issued with standarized weapon, most of them will be modified according to their own needs. So it's not suprising to find several different types of rifles in their hands.

The XM-8 will replace the M16A2 and the M4A1 in U.S army regulars in the future, no doubt that the SF will be the first ones to get their hands on them but that does not mean they cannot use different rifles of the the same calibre.
 

highsea

New Member
Red aRRow said:
.... does this mean the SCAR is probably just a stop gap?
I don't think it's a stopgap. SOCOM likes to do their own shopping, because their needs are different than the rest of the forces. The XM-8 will still go to the Army and Marines, I imagine. Also, there are no plans for the XM-8 in 7.62mm as far as I know, just 5.56 and 6.8.

There won't be any interchangability between the SCAR and the XM-8, one is based on the HK G36 and the other is based on the FN FNC. So the only things that would swap out would be accessories and ammo.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pathfinder-X said:
........... no doubt that the SF will be the first ones to get their hands on them but that does not mean they cannot use different rifles of the the same calibre.

The XM-8 has been field tested by SOCOM in Iraq.
 

highsea

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
3 components:

1) We used a gas controlled floating breech block. The floating breech is calibre specific. The chamber "receiver" is also redesigned.

2) Muzzlebreak and modifications to the barrel crown

3) Gas manipulation system midway down the barrel length.

I can't really expand upon an explanation of the technology for various reasons.
Without getting specific, and commercial secrets notwithstanding, I have a general question.

I am familiar with 2 and 3, they are pretty standard techniques. The only assault gun I have seen with a floating breech is the Steyr ACR. It seems to me that the lock time would be rather long, as the breech has to come up into firing position before the gun can shoot.

Using the gases to move the breech would eat up recoil, because the mass is moving up and down, rather than fore and aft, but how does that compare to the longer lock time (especially in aimed single shot use) as far as tradeoffs are concerned?

I am using the Steyr as an example here. If the gun can be ready to fire with the breech in position, then the lock time wouldn't be affected, it would just be a matter of the firing pin. In the Steyr, pulling the trigger starts the process where the breech moves up inline with the barrel. This seems like a disadvantage to me, because the long lock time and movement of the breech can affect the aim point.
 
Top