Go Back   DefenceTalk Forum - Military & Defense Forums > Global Defense & Military > Geo-strategic Issues
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

Hill-afb-f-35A--GBU-12_laser-guided-bomb-drop.jpg

humvee-us-army-stars.jpg

RF_13-3_Typhoon_FGR4_0697-1.JPG

RF_13-3_F-16_Aggressor_0731-1.JPG
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







South China Sea News & Discussions, incl Spratly Islands News

This is a discussion on South China Sea News & Discussions, incl Spratly Islands News within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; No one is claiming this exercise in any way influences the balance,of power one iota. Which is why I called ...


Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 2.60 average.
Old June 18th, 2014   #226
Defense Enthusiast
Captain
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 784
Threads:
No one is claiming this exercise in any way influences the balance,of power one iota. Which is why I called it a PR gimmick. It served it's purpose by demonstrating that peaceful means to address,differences and coexist is possible, in stark contrast to Beijing's bullying.
colay is offline  
Old May 13th, 2015   #227
Defense Enthusiast
Corporal
FormerDirtDart's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 149
Threads:
"Proposes" & "considering" does not equal the definitive statement: "US to directly challenge China over islands"
Way to lay on the hyperbole
FormerDirtDart is offline  
Old May 26th, 2015   #228
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
But the US just can't stand by and let itself and it's allies get bullied and dictated to by what is undeniably a weaker military force. Bullying is bullying; the issue may be dressed up as a US versus China spat but in fact it is already affecting the economy of the Philippines and no doubt other adjacent nations who rely on those waters for trade and fishing.

This issue has to be solved diplomatically and quickly; otherwise I predict the hand justice will come down and China will suffer huge set backs in it's push for imperial expansion.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 27th, 2015   #229
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StingrayOZ View Post
I think everyone is re-evaluating everything.


Several countries have reconsidered their relationship with the US.
Can you elaborate on this? I assume you mean in terms of strengthening alliances?

Also today there is this:

China warns US war is 'INEVITABLE' unless rival superpower halts meddling | World | News | Daily Express

China more or less saying that they would accept war with the US over the SCS issue.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 27th, 2015   #230
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Thumbs up for the assessment there Mr G. Now it's a matter of waiting and watching.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 28th, 2015   #231
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
US expresses determination to support it's allies in the region and that it will continue to fly and sail as it always has in these international waters.

The war of words is escalating.

China, U.S. in war of words over disputed islands - CNNPolitics.com
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 28th, 2015   #232
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post

It's too simplistic to convey the impression that China is the bad guy and that the other, weaker and smaller claimants, along with the U.S. are the good guys. We may not agree with what China is doing but like others, it has legitimate reasons for doing what it's doing and there is some elements of truth when China screams of double standards and hypocrisy on the part of the U.S. We can only hope that diplomacy will eventually lead to a solution to this dispute.
Why not just regard the whole area as international water? Or agree say a 250 mile boundary from all sovereign nations as belonging to that nation?

For China to declare the whole SCS as theirs is preposterous and fails on all moral and historical grounds. I see no sympathy due to China on this issue.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 29th, 2015   #233
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
There was a theory put forward to me by a defence writer a few years ago that doesn't sound very far fetched.

According to the theory, what China badly desires is for the other claimants to first acknowledge China's new status as an economic and military power and to stop (this would include Taiwan, the Philippines and Vietnam) being 'influenced" by the U.S. and Japan (to China the U.S. and Japan are meddling in matters that don't concern them). China believes that if it wasn't for other claimants being influenced by "outsiders", the issue would have long been resolved and everyone would have gained something (naturally China will gain the most).
No one should have to bow prostrate to any emerging super power. It's degrading and primitive; like 'paying homage' to Rome.

Pay homage to the all great China and then we will stop bullying the weaker players. Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post

After this is done and after the other claimants completely cease all actions that are deemed "provocative" and "disrespectful", they will be rewarded. The rewards would include being allowed to keep the reefs they currently hold, joint oil and gas exploration with China and increased trade and investment from China. Despite its actions and strings words, the Chinese realised that some concessions will have to be made. Naturally, China will be the dominant partner in this arrangement and the other smaller and weaker claimants will have to "behave".

This year's Shang-rila dialogue will be held soon. Will be interesting to see what various countries have to say about recent events in the Spratlys.
Thank God they have the US to defend them then that's all I can say. These nations deserve respect and dignity. If it takes the US to safeguard that right then so be it.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 29th, 2015   #234
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goknub View Post
That theory makes sense. It's Chinas version of America's "Monroe Doctrine" that kept the Europeans out of South America. Even Australia has its Pacific "backyard".
The US has a less than rosy relationship with some of its southern neighbours.

International Law only exists while the major powers see value in them and are willing to play nice. The League of Nations was a big deal back in its day too.
Using history as a precedent for the present is a huge mistake. Do we really want to keep repeating the errors of the past? Should the human race not be moving on and evolving new ethics and principles? You decide.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 29th, 2015   #235
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Jönköping
Posts: 6
Threads:
South China Sea thoughts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonnyc View Post
The Chinese perspective is simple. Their view is that the South China Sea is an integral part of Chinese territory from time immemorial and everyone else is trespassing.

There is no such thing as other claimants, because there is no claim. The South China Sea is as much part of China as Beijing is part of China. Mind you, the South China Sea is not Chinese EEZ. It is China's "blue" homeland. Their internal rhetoric is very consistent on this and is accepted without question by the Chinese (if any Chinese academics disagree, they know better than to say it).

Given this baseline, any action that is not silent acquiescence can easily be spun as provocative and aggressive. What matters is not the actual action, but whether the Party sees the corresponding nation as a friend or not.

For example, some three years ago I saw a series of TV programs covering the South China Seas. As part of the show a Chinese Marine Surveillance ship was shown proudly and bravely rescuing Chinese fishermen from a "foreign warship". The problem is that the coordinates shown corresponds to the Indonesian EEZ. This is not the CCTV mistakenly putting the wrong numbers, because the coordinates were shown on the CMS ship's navigation screen. The foreign warship has had its flag blurred out, but from the silhouette someone said it was an Indonesian navy ship.

A warship threatening your fishermen is normally a big deal. The Indonesian Navy ship was probably going to arrest the Chinese fishermen for poaching, but if China says the SCS is their integral territory (listen to what the Chinese officers say, their warnings consistently say "Chinese territory", unlike the Chinese diplomats who still keep things vague), then it would have been a foreign military entering sovereign territory to kidnap one's citizens. This ought to be a big diplomatic mess. But nope, barely anyone ever heard about it. I don't claim to know why, but I speculate that it is because China sees Indonesia as a friendly nation.

Contrast that to the Philippines taking the issue to UN arbitration. No warship involved. No lives involved. It doesn't seek to establish who owns the area, merely to establish that the islands in question are rocks that can not naturally sustain people and thus can't generate EEZ. This does not even conflict with China's own claim, since China does not base the Nine Dash Lines on the rocks but rather states that the Nine Dash Line is Chinese territory, period. No justification given because none is needed. And yet the filing of the arbitration is considered highly provocative.

While hypothetically some action is obviously aggressive and provocative (e.g., actual shooting), it's impossible to determine what action is unquestionably non-provocative and non-aggressive because China can always choose to view it as provocative.

I share the hope that diplomacy will provide a solution. I watch Chinese TV from time to time and it is a useful barometer. But as long as their internal propaganda says that it is their homeland, though, then diplomacy can only delay things, not solve it. When their media starts saying that the SCS is Chinese EEZ, then maybe we can hope for a real solution. Because EEZ can be negotiated, but homeland is not.
China is quickly modernizing its deepseafleet to counter the us in the region. They have the basurd claim of 90% of South China sea.. LOL...
According to link deleted they have 495 warships in total, a pretty impressive fleet, but the quality is not even close to that of Russia or US.

Last edited by OPSSG; May 30th, 2015 at 05:57 AM.
Alkyonios is offline  
Old May 29th, 2015   #236
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
Is the U.S. really going to defend "them"? Is it in the interest of the U.S. to risk the prospect of war in the event that China gets more aggressive with a certain claimant? If Chinese bullying of a certain claimant does not interfere with the freedom of navigation in the area, will it be in the interests of the U.S. to risk getting caught up in a war; especially after the failures that were Iraq and Afghanistan? If for example the Philippines decides to act more aggressively - with a 40 year old former USCG cutter - in knowledge that it is a U.S. treaty ally; will the U.S. automatically jump in if a Chinese ships rams the Philippines cutter?

If the U.S. - regardless of whether it serves its natural interests - was so eager to defend the weak and vulnerable; I can think of certain places whose populations would be deserving of U.S. protection to safeguard their well being, "respect" and "dignity".
I see the US as the only one super power with any honour at the moment.

Yes they are lending support to various nations at the moment; particularly those at risk from China and Russia. Also those in the middle east too and yet without becoming embroiled themselves.

I do not see a lot wrong with the actions of the US at the moment. We see a very restrained moderate leadership that asserts itself when needed without the impulsive trigger happy attitude that it had in previous decades.

What regime change may bring in the US is anyone's guess. Being a European I certainly would not want to be without their support at this time.

I'll wager there are tens of millions of South Koreans that agree with that sentiment.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 29th, 2015   #237
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 6,152
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gazzzwp View Post
Why not just regard the whole area as international water? Or agree say a 250 mile boundary from all sovereign nations as belonging to that nation?

For China to declare the whole SCS as theirs is preposterous and fails on all moral and historical grounds. I see no sympathy due to China on this issue.
Why not just follow the established international laws? That would rule out the island creation, cancel the Chinese claim, & make most of the disputed area the EEZs (not to be confused with territorial waters) of the littoral states, which means (except for a bit in the north) Not China.
swerve is offline  
Old May 30th, 2015   #238
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve View Post
Why not just follow the established international laws? That would rule out the island creation, cancel the Chinese claim, & make most of the disputed area the EEZs (not to be confused with territorial waters) of the littoral states, which means (except for a bit in the north) Not China.
Agreed.

Anyway the militarisation has apparently begun.

U.S. detects Chinese artillery on disputed islands - CNNPolitics.com

I really also object to China accusing the US of stoking tensions. That is a blatant falsehood and I can only hope justice prevails here otherwise terrible things may happen.
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 30th, 2015   #239
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve View Post
Why not just follow the established international laws? That would rule out the island creation, cancel the Chinese claim, & make most of the disputed area the EEZs (not to be confused with territorial waters) of the littoral states, which means (except for a bit in the north) Not China.
Swerve what are your thoughts about timing of a major US challenge? Once these islands are complete and fully militarised with fighter and bomber fleets, missile defences and naval assets would that present a major danger to the movements of the US an her allies in the area?

Would it be in the interests of the allies to launch a major challenge sooner rather than later?

This surely has to be a dilemma that needs a quick decision by the US policy makers?
gazzzwp is offline  
Old May 30th, 2015   #240
Defense Enthusiast
Master Sergeant
gazzzwp's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 300
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM View Post
There isn't really much more the U.S. can do beyond what it's already doing. Lets be realistic here. The worrying part is that despite the U.S. "pivot", moves to strengthen ties with regional players and strong statements made by U.S. officials; the Chinese haven't backed down. I suspect the Americans - like everyone else - are not only worried and frustrated but are at a lost at what to do next.

Given the way things are going I will not be surprised to see USN ships visiting Subic more often for rest and refueling stops. Another possibility - if Sino/Vietnamese ties worsen - is USN ships regularly stopping at Da Nang.
The ultimate defiance would be for the allies to build a major reef of their own! A US/Vietnam/Philippines/Malaysia joint venture.
gazzzwp is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:27 AM.