Sino-Indian border dispute

Vertias

Banned Member
I would like to listen to different opinions about Sino-Indian border disputes.

The border disputes of China and India lie primarily in 2 areas, the Aksai Chin in the western sector and the McMahon line in the eastern sector.

The Aksai Chin is about 37,250 sqkm, currently controlled by China. The Chinese claimed Southern Tibet, under Indian control is about 65,000 sqkm, now roughly corresponds to the Indian State of Arunachal Pradesh.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
There is a very simple rule, which if followed, will put you on the right side (as in morally, not necessarily the most expedient) every time:

All Chinese claims are wrong.
 

Vertias

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #3
There is a very simple rule, which if followed, will put you on the right side (as in morally, not necessarily the most expedient) every time:

All Chinese claims are wrong.
You may not convince people that Chinese are wrong if you do not back it up. The most authoritative books on Sino Indian War by Neville Maxwell, an Australian/British has nailed the Indians as the aggressors.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Irrelevant. You asked about the border disputes. The rightness or wrongness of territorial disputes is not affected by who shoots first in a particular conflict.

China has a long list of claims, all based on the principle that if it's ever been ruled by China, or by any state including China (e.g. the Mongol or Manchu states while they ruled China), or had diplomatic relations with China under the old tributary system (the smaller state gave the Emperor gifts, which were accepted as his due, from the lesser to the greater, & he, in his kindness, gave them gifts of equal or greater value), then China has a legitimate claim to it.

Chinese generals have written of Ryukyu as having been Chinese, for example. It never was. There were never Chinese soldiers stationed there, & it never had any Chinese administrators.Ambassadors from the Manchu court visited every now & then. They delivered gifts, accepted some, & went away again. Under Chinese rules, that made it Chinese.

Much the same with Arunachal Pradesh & Aksai Chin. Aksai Chin & parts of Arunachal Pradesh have, sometimes, been ruled by Tibet. China controls Tibet. China therefore claims everything that's ever been ruled by Tibet.

Under this logic, Morocco can lay claim to much of Spain, all of Algeria & Tunisia, most of Libya, Mauritania & Mali. Italy can claim England, Wales, Iraq, Portugal, Romania, & everything in between. And so on . . .

China is the only significant country still using the obsolete logic of imperialism to justify territorial claims against its neighbours.
 

Vertias

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #5
I will first answer you about Ryukyu. You are wrong to say that Chinese general claim Ryukyu on behalf of China. You can never find any documents to support this statement as it is entirely faked by you. Ryukyu is a vassal state of China. It is not China who covet Ryukyu but the opposite, Ryukyu people have a lot of love for China, even after that hate propaganda by Japan and western countries regarding Diaoyu, that Japan claims illegally on behalf of Ryukyu.

Below is by wikileaks and it shows you how much Ryukyu people love China and hate Japan.

Many Okinawans identify with China culturally and believe China sees them as a separate people from the Japanese. Some also say Okinawa, over the centuries, has received better treatment from China than from Japan or the United States. These attitudes combine to produce an Okinawan perspective that is markedly different from that of mainland Japan

In recent years, China's economic expansion and growing military capabilities have attracted a great deal of attention in Japan, although somewhat less in Okinawa. The two leading Okinawan newspapers generally appear reluctant to feature articles about the potential negative impacts on regional security associated with China's rise

In Okinawa, however, many - probably most -residents have a substantially different assessment of China. In general, Okinawans perceive little potential threat from China; many people here note China and the Ryukyu Kingdom had peaceful
relations for centuries prior to the 19th Century Meiji Restoration in Japan. To be sure, there are Okinawans who are as concerned about China's destabilizing possibilities as are many mainlanders, but this is not the prevailing view on the
island.

We asked why a look at a map of the region surrounding Okinawa and current stories regarding China's expansion didn't provide Okinawans enough information for them to judge for themselves. Tomon replied the GOJ and USG were like the boy who cried wolf, pointing to China and claiming that something awful might happen, but nothing ever did.

By entering into close trading relationships with both China and Japan in the 14th and 15th centuries, the Ryukyu Kingdom enjoyed a lengthy period of prosperity in the years before 1609. As George Kerr notes in his book Okinawa: The History of an Island People, "the islands were independent. They were in constant communication and at peace with neighboring states. Okinawans were in the happy position of freedom to adopt what they wanted, and to remain indifferent - or at best mildly curious - about foreign artifacts and institutions for which they felt no pressing need. China loomed as the neighbor of unquestioned superiority, and Okinawans were in close and constant communication with Japan, but were overwhelmed by neither." Many Okinawans today regard this period as the Golden Age of their history, and view it as a basis for their belief that China sees Okinawa a place entirely separate from Japan.

We believe most Okinawans side with China. Typical of this attitude is Masaru Yamada, treasurer of Okinawa City, who recently criticized Koizumi's visits to Yasukuni Shrine. He told us he doubted China would ever accept Koizumi's explanations of the visits, any more than he himself did. Okinawans and Chinese held similar views of the visits, he explained, because they shared the experience of having been "prisoners of war" of the Japanese.

Many Okinawans believe that China sees them differently, and more warmly, than it sees the rest of Japan. They point out that Taipei International Airport, when posting place names in Chinese characters, lists flights to/from "Ryukyu," not Okinawa.

The above caveats notwithstanding, Okinawa's sense of affinity with China and feeling of distance from Japanese interests give this place a unique perspective on Sino-Japanese relations,
China has a list of claims and she has settled all her land dispute with almost everybody, other than India, and Bhutan, which is India's vassal. Qing dynasty China has ruled Tibet and that indeed give China a legitimate claim of entire Tibet land.

British has ruled India. Unilaterally and illegally, British India was claimant to South Tibet and base on this fact, India claims Southern Tibet illegally and shamelessly.

There is no such thing as India before the arrival of British and India is the result of imperialism. Under whatever logic you have, India should break up as it is a product of British imposing their tyrannical rule of unwilling princely states of Bharat. On top of all, Kashmir should go Independent.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
1) . You have accused me of faking something I've posted here. You have called me a liar & a fraud. Retract immediately.

2) You're quoting something with no reference to the source other than 'Wikileaks". That suggests you don't know what Wikileaks is, or what is on it.

3) You are laying claim to Ryukyu in exactly the terms you say I am faking, that it is a 'vassal state'. Don't you see the inconsistency?

4) There is another logical inconsistency: you claim that Ryukyu is a 'vassal state', while simultaneously claiming that China doesn't want it, but Ryukyu wants to be part of China.

China has a list of claims and she has settled all her land dispute with almost everybody, other than India, and Bhutan, which is India's vassal. Qing dynasty China has ruled Tibet and that indeed give China a legitimate claim of entire Tibet land.
Doh! So, who were the Qings? Chinese? Err . no. They were conquerors of China, who governed China separately from their own homeland, & gave their own people more rights than the Chinese. You've either ignored, or not understood, what I wrote about the idiocy of Chinese claims based on the empires of conquerors of China. On that basis, the Tajiks can claim Finland, because they were both conquered by the Russians.

It is also untrue to say that China "has settled all her land dispute with almost everybody, other than India, and Bhutan". China has active disputes over land with Japan, South Korea, Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam & Brunei.
 
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Vertias

Banned Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #7
First, you did wrongly accused China of claiming Ryukyu. You are a mod and so be it. I cannot do anything other than going somewhere else and let you guys here enjoy yourselves. Nothing to loss and there are much interesting people elsewhere than someone who has no idea what Ryukyu history is.

Wikileaks are USA cable. Go find out why it matters, do your due work and stop accusing.

China claim Ryukyu as vassal does not mean it claim it as sovereignty, polish up your English please. Malacca Sultanate was a vassal state of China, and China does not claim to be Malaysia sovereign.

China does not claim sovereign over Ryukyu does not mean that Ryukyu do not want to associate China, probably back to good old days, something similar to India and Bhutan now.

Please, you should have higher standards as a mod. Do not assume inconsistency when there is non at all. No one call you are liar and a fraud and you should wake up from your illusion.

This forum appears to be no fun as I observe many mods seems to be quite parochial and fond of issuing threats, rather than logical rebuttal, not being abash of their lack of rigor and intellectual tolerance.

I also beg to to study more as Tajik was never conquered by Romans.

Right now China has indeed settled most of her territorial dispute with abutting states other than India and her vassal Bhutan. Major dispute nowadays are maritime.

Do you know that China has just settled land dispute with Vietnam and many Chinese netizen suspect concessions are given? And not just Vietnam but all of her neighbors with exception of 2-- you know who.

Below is by NYT.

Vietnam and China have completed the demarcation of their long-disputed land border in what they hailed as an event of "great historic significance" 30 years after their brief but bloody border war, state media reported Thursday.
Many participants in this forum appear to be involve in securities. God bless us, and I hope that you guys have higher intellectual standards.
 

bdique

Member
Wtf did I just read

Okay, the ADIZ thread was closed because someone needed to be a one-sided history lecturer and now...this? Why did you even start the thread claiming to want to hear views from others and then call them liars? Do you have proof swerve is faking it? Why not address it as an incorrect fact, then discuss from there?

Btw, quick lesson on making assertations. Let's assume wikileaks can be trusted as truth. You said Okinawans hate Japan and love China. The article states that they simply view China differently. This is not the same thing.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
You said I faked something. That is an accusation that I lied. Retract it.

As I thought. You don't know what Wikileaks is. You could have found out by looking on Wikipedia.

For your information, Wikileaks includes, but is not limited to, US internal official communications. Your quote could be (but is not necessarily) from one of those, perhaps one of the many State Department messages Wikileaks has published. But just because it's written by someone employed by the US State Department does not make it true. Some of the stuff written for internal State Department use during the Vietnam War, for example, was completely wrong. It can be the opinion of one official. It can be written to please a boss.

"Vassal state" is an obsolete imperialist concept. Trying to revive it is one of the many ways in which Chinese policy is wrong. True, it is not the same as claiming sovereignty, but unfortunately many Chinese do not appreciate the difference now. I've seen Chinese (unofficial, of course) comments along the lines of "I didn't realise Okinawa used to be ours". This misunderstanding reaches quite high up. And in any case, Ryukyu was not a true vassal. For many years it was ruled by Japanese daimyos while pretending to the Manchus that it was under their suzerainty.

I see you've misunderstood 'land dispute' It's a dispute about land. That land can be an island. It is not restricted to land borders. Purely maritime disputes are about maritime boundaries, not pieces of land. China has both, disputes over possession of islands, & disputes over boundaries at sea.

You have still not addressed the issue of the difference between rule (or suzerainty) by empires which had conquered China, & rule by China. Pretending it doesn't exist?


Tajiks & Finns: slip of the fingers. I meant Russians. I'd been thinking of Portuguese & Egyptians, & decided to substitute something more recent.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
You said I faked something. That is an accusation that I lied. Retract it.
Vertias, an apology to swerve and retraction your false accusation is required within 24 hours. Failure to do so will result in administrative sanctions.

Further, your last two posts have not been approved, as they are further attempts at trolling.
 

Daryl

New Member
First, you did wrongly accused China of claiming Ryukyu. You are a mod and so be it. I cannot do anything other than going somewhere else and let you guys here enjoy yourselves. Nothing to loss and there are much interesting people elsewhere than someone who has no idea what Ryukyu history is.

Wikileaks are USA cable. Go find out why it matters, do your due work and stop accusing.

China claim Ryukyu as vassal does not mean it claim it as sovereignty, polish up your English please. Malacca Sultanate was a vassal state of China, and China does not claim to be Malaysia sovereign.

China does not claim sovereign over Ryukyu does not mean that Ryukyu do not want to associate China, probably back to good old days, something similar to India and Bhutan now.

Please, you should have higher standards as a mod. Do not assume inconsistency when there is non at all. No one call you are liar and a fraud and you should wake up from your illusion.

This forum appears to be no fun as I observe many mods seems to be quite parochial and fond of issuing threats, rather than logical rebuttal, not being abash of their lack of rigor and intellectual tolerance.

I also beg to to study more as Tajik was never conquered by Romans.

Right now China has indeed settled most of her territorial dispute with abutting states other than India and her vassal Bhutan. Major dispute nowadays are maritime.

Do you know that China has just settled land dispute with Vietnam and many Chinese netizen suspect concessions are given? And not just Vietnam but all of her neighbors with exception of 2-- you know who.

Below is by NYT.



Many participants in this forum appear to be involve in securities. God bless us, and I hope that you guys have higher intellectual standards.
Dear Veritas,

Two thoughts occurred to me as I read this thread, well, three actually.

In answer to the original question my thoughts are that Pakistan seemed to side with China against India in the last go around and yet it is probably the wrong thing to do. It reminds me of the time Poland backed England and France in letting Hitler have the hunk of Czechoslovakia, (because they thought they could get a few chunks too). Never side with a huge aggressive totalitarian power when they could have designs on you too. But due to the entrenched mentality of the Pakistani ruling caste I suspect that the next Pak/Indian conflict might be the open door for China to "appropriate" a larger chunk than they claim they want because it needs "defensible" borders.

The second thought is that I once had been a teacher for 22 Ryukyuans and learned a lot from them. The first is that not one had fond thoughts of China and did not even consider being ruled by it as a possibility. You may be confusing a real issue that these people at times do not see themselves as Japanese and they do feel they get the short end of the stick. However, that simply means they might want to be more independent, not switch "overlords", and as they would see it switch to a worse overlord.

The third thing is not really a thought but a question. Are you a communist sympathizer or even a Chinese agent? Your comments seem to indicate you consider you are right because you say so based on your world view and that you demand everyone else only relate to you using information you want to cherry pick. It seems you were not ready to actually to discuss the issue with people who think differently than you and might relate to information you are not intellectually open to consider. Or the moderator could be right, you simply are trolling.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Are you a communist sympathizer or even a Chinese agent?
Not quite. Think of the Borg in Star Trek:- Vertias and his pals are here to assimilate you to their world view.

Your comments seem to indicate you consider you are right because you say so based on your world view and that you demand everyone else only relate to you using information you want to cherry pick.
The more offensive remarks have been unapproved, so that flame-wars don't break-out. The goal of Vertias and his pals are simple, bring everyone to their subjective level, to ensure that no objective discussion on the topic is possible. Or 'he said', 'she said' level, as they tried to do in the New China ADIZ thread that is now closed, due to a pattern of behavour by multiple trolls working the same agenda. That way, those who shout the loudest or engage in the more offensive insult wins.

If you face trolling, report the post rather than continuing to respond to them.

Unfortunately for him, the Moderators in DefenceTalk are not playing that game - having demonstrated the limitations of their point of view with reason and logic. And on occasion, we laugh at these attempts.

It seems you were not ready to actually to discuss the issue with people who think differently than you and might relate to information you are not intellectually open to consider.
We are certain he is ready to correct your point of view (if you deviate from his view point); and it is a pattern of behaviour (including personal attacks) demonstrated in more than one thread.

Or the moderator could be right, you simply are trolling.
Yes, that is a simple way to understand they game they play, as a team. On occasion, we cull some members, who are more offensive in their mode of interaction (as with this case for Vertias), as we value a diversity of views. If you note, his handle has turned pink (indicating he is a banned member).

Moderating threads is sometimes a peace-enforcement mission (a Chapter 7 event), rather than peace-keeping (Chapter 6) operation. Some forum hygiene management is necessary at times and this is one of them.

Hope you will continue to enjoy posting and reading the forum. It is a pleasure to be of service.

Cheers.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
I'm puzzled that he couldn't see that accusing someone of faking is calling them a liar.

I have to confess that I can't find the source for that Chinese general, & IIRC it was a retired general expressing a personal opinion - but reported as being published in a PLA magazine, which suggests that it isn't an opinion that is regarded as beyond the pale. AFAIK China's never made an official claim to Ryukyu, any more than it claims Korea, but it tolerates the expression of opinions that they were once Chinese & should be again, & in China the state is quite strict on the expression of unacceptable opinions about China's borders.

As for India's border claims - I don't believe that claims based on colonial boundaries are valid in themselves. They need additional justifications, such as being accepted by the people living within them. For example, India's attempt to push its border in Aksai Chin up to the 1865 line was, in my view, only defensible in terms of giving more Tibetans freedom from China, but that wasn't the Indian justification for it. Nor do I accept the "India makes claims based on British boundaries so China can claim Manchu borders" argument.

I was going to post something about the ancient concept of India as a unity, albeit not usually a political entity, & the various empires which have ruled large parts, & sometimes almost all, of it, & make some comparisons with the often politically divided nature of China & its multiple languages, united by an idea, but that's not really relevant now.
 

Twain

Active Member
I have to confess that I can't find the source for that Chinese general, & IIRC it was a retired general expressing a personal opinion - but reported as being published in a PLA magazine, which suggests that it isn't an opinion that is regarded as beyond the pale. AFAIK China's never made an official claim to Ryukyu, any more than it claims Korea, but it tolerates the expression of opinions that they were once Chinese & should be again, & in China the state is quite strict on the expression of unacceptable opinions about China's borders.
Here ya go

Japan’s claim to Okinawa disputed by influential Chinese commentators - The Washington Post

Maj. Gen. Jin Yinan, head of the strategy research institute at China’s National Defense University, went even further. He told state-run radio that limiting discussion to the Diaoyu was “too narrow,” saying Beijing should question ownership of the whole Ryukyu archipelago, which by some definitions extends beyond Okinawa.

This whole mess is actually pretty worrisome. While I don't think it will come open war, I''ll be surprised if there aren't some serious shooting incidents before it is finally all settled. China's approach just seems so awkward. They seem to have at least aggravated and at worst completely alienated most of their neighbors.

It seems to me some of the analysts theories on this subject are correct though, Post Tienanmen Square the PRC put a large emphasis in their press and in schools on building a nationalist movement to distract from other issues. Couple that with their military expansion/ modernization and now that nationalist movement is asking "why are we spending all this money on our military if we aren't going to use it to our benefit?". This combination is troubling to say the least.
 
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