Should Germany become a military superpower again?

[F-15 Eagle]

I have noticed that ever since WWII the German military has decreased in size over the years almost non-stop too so I was wondering. Should Germany re-arm its armed forces and increase its size to at least 1 million troops and even make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships? I have posted a poll as well to see what everyone here thinks?

 

[kato]

Actually, the German Military grew constantly between the late 50s and late 80s (1985: 500k active, 800k reserve plus 40k paramilitary). The Cold War plans drawn up in the early 60s - and severely reduced by the late 60s - called for 520k active soldiers, almost reached in 1985 to 1989 with constant increase until then.

Only post-Cold-War, troop numbers were reduced - and are still well above 50s levels today. Besides which, Germany is still subject to 2+4 and CFE - and hence limited to 350k soldiers, only 140% of the current level.

Besides which - what would you need 1 million soldiers for? Btw, Germany "does make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships".

That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!

 

[11561]

Perhaps a more prudent question would be: "Should Germany act like a military superpower again?"

In which case, probably not. The Germans won't get anything good from beating up Poland and France again. No point to it.

Germany has the technology and industrial output to be a superpower, but not the will or the population base.

 

[Onkel]

The world doesn´t need another superpower, nor there is a need for Germany for beeing one. The existing military powers make things bad enough quite now.

We could discuss if it wouldn´t be wise to keep more self-defense-capabilities, especially heavy equipment, apart from that Germanies economical power guaranties wealthiness and safety- what more should it need?

 

[Feanor]

Besides which - what would you need 1 million soldiers for? Btw, Germany "does make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships".

That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!

Wait what? I think he meant that 1 million men in the armed forces overall. And I don't think Germany has the population for that.

 

[SABRE]

Before I jump into this discussion I have a question. Why should Germany become a superpower?

 

[kato]

Wait what? I think he meant that 1 million men in the armed forces overall. And I don't think Germany has the population for that.

1 million soldiers in Germany would mean three times the engaged manpower per population in comparison to the USA currently, or twice the engaged manpower per population in comparison to China (when including the 4.5 million or so paramilitary forces).

Of course Germany has the population to support 1 million men at peacetime. We'd just need to extent conscription to the same length as Israel, and presto, 1 million men and women in the Bundeswehr.

 

[Feanor]

I mean there is a recommended demographic ratio of soldiers to population, and I can't be over 1% before the adverse effects start to compound on the economy.

 

[kato]

Always depends. You can always feed back soldiers into economic processes, such as by taking over certain branch industries (construction is always a favourite of course), or you can try to get below such critical levels by engaging a good proportion of soldiers in more-or-less paramilitary uses.

Today in peacetime Israel is at 2.4%, Greece is at 1.6%, Turkey at 1.4%. West Germany in the late 80s with 500k soldiers was at a mere 0.8% (East Germany was at 0.9% during the same time), and even with 1 million soldiers today would still be well below Turkish levels.

 

[battlensign]

Umm....and the last three times Germany acted like a Superpower......!?!?!

On a more serious note, I would agree with the previous sentiment of: "...and Germany would being doing this for the purposes of ...........?"

Brett.

 

[nevidimka]

I'd love to see that. They have the economic power and technological capability to become 1. I don't believe Hitler was their 1 trick pony.

 

[kato]

On a somewhat lighter note, the 2002/2003 Lamy-Verheugen-Plan would have entered the Bundeswehr into a standing national 600,000-man field army at the time, with 150,000 combatant paramilitaries and wartime reserves pushing this to easily around 1.7 million relatively readily available. With 650+ fighter jets, a 250-unit navy, and 2,200 MBTs (without reserves).

Now that would have been a military superpower.

 

[nevidimka]

On a somewhat lighter note, the 2002/2003 Lamy-Verheugen-Plan would have entered the Bundeswehr into a standing national 600,000-man field army at the time, with 150,000 combatant paramilitaries and wartime reserves pushing this to easily around 1.7 million relatively readily available. With 650+ fighter jets, a 250-unit navy, and 2,200 MBTs (without reserves).

Now that would have been a military superpower.

NO, IMO that only makes them a military power. To be a military superpower, you'd need to be mroe numerical superior, nuke's, and power projection capability with your navy and air force.

 

[kato]

The Lamy-Verheugen Military would have had nukes. And good enough power projection capacities. And a UN SC veto.

 

[nevidimka]

Wouldnt that bring germany into the level of UK and France? A superpower would need significantly more than that.

For a country as small as Germany that does not have the vast size of USA and Soviet Union, to be considered a superpower, it would need to have a huge power projection capability through its Navy and Air force to compensate for that.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

I'm not talking about another Nazi Germany I'm simply asking should Germany become a military superpower like that of the U.S. Military?

Besides which - what would you need 1 million soldiers for? Btw, Germany "does make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships".

That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!

They could use it the same reason the U.S. does I guess.

I was asking SHOULD Germany make its own fighters, bombers , tanks and ships. As in a question.

I was referring to their overall size of 1 million. The U.S. has 1.4 million on active duty plus at least 800,000 in national guard and reserves for a total of around 2.3 million.

Perhaps a more prudent question would be: "Should Germany act like a military superpower again?"

In which case, probably not. The Germans won't get anything good from beating up Poland and France again. No point to it.

Germany has the technology and industrial output to be a superpower, but not the will or the population base.

They have the population base because in WWII their military was 7 million strong, I don't think they have the will not just yet. As for should Germany be a superpower again well thats up to everyone's personal opinion.

The world doesn´t need another superpower, nor there is a need for Germany for beeing one. The existing military powers make things bad enough quite now.

I assume your talking about the U.S. right?

Wait what? I think he meant that 1 million men in the armed forces overall. And I don't think Germany has the population for that.

In WWII they had a 7 million strong military yeah I think they have the population for 1 million troops.

Before I jump into this discussion I have a question. Why should Germany become a superpower?

Same reason the U.S. is one. Be the world cop or one of them I should say.

 

[Waylander]

@nevidimka
With the proposed lamy-Verheugen plan Germany would be alot more powerfull than the UK and France are today.

With current levels the Bundeswehr is not that far away from Britain and France in overall capabilities and outmatches them in some.

Within armed forces of 600.000 men + militia and reserve formations there would be enough room for power projection capabilities if wanted, including a handsome strategic force.

@F-15 Eagle
There are not that many military fields in which germany doesn't produce it's own weapons or at least in conjunction with other partners.
Do you tried to look at our equipment as well as weapons export before you decided to state that Germany doesn't produce it's own "fighters, bombers, tanks and ships"?

Finally I go with many other posters here.
Why should Germany do this? Just for the feeling of having nice and shiny armed forces and being able to pounce some 3rd world power into the dust?

Germanies economic strength and relatively big population (for european standards) guarantees that we can expand the Bundeswehr even to much bigger levels than during cold war.
Kato gave you the numbers and he didn't even included the eastern german forces which added more than 150k soldiers+ lots of reserve formations to what Germany supported during the height of cold war.

As kato stated. By going the Israeli way Germany could easily expand it's forces to an enourmous size.
And by spending the 4,5% of GDP like the US (Not to talk of going Israeli there as well) Germany would spend nearly 150 billion $.
This would be a superpower in military terms no doubt.

But what for?

 

[Waylander]

Umm....and the last three times Germany acted like a Superpower......!?!?!

On a more serious note, I would agree with the previous sentiment of: "...and Germany would being doing this for the purposes of ...........?"

Brett.

Went under my radar first.

The last three times?
When was this?
Even if one assumes that WWI was purely Germanys fault I just come up with 2 events...

 

[shrubage]

Went under my radar first.

The last three times?
When was this?
Even if one assumes that WWI was purely Germanys fault I just come up with 2 events...

You could consider the genocide of the Heroro people in German south west africa at the begining of the 20th century to be Germany attempting to act like a superpower.

 

[merocaine]

Their about the only country in Europe with the Industrial muscle to make a fair stab at it in a short space of time, with all that high end engineering and manufacturing capability devoted to churning out tanks and fighter bomber and subs....
It would be glorious!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08akOt2kuo"]YouTube - Springtime for Hitler - The Producers(1968)[/ame]