Go Back   Defense Technology & Military Forum > Global Defense & Military > Geo-strategic Issues
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

Nellis_14_2500-1.JPG

Nellis_14_2495-1.JPG

Nellis_14_1221-1.JPG

Nellis_14_0352-1.JPG
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







Recent Photos - DefenceTalk Military Gallery





Should Germany become a military superpower again?

This is a discussion on Should Germany become a military superpower again? within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I have noticed that ever since WWII the German military has decreased in size over the years almost non-stop too ...


View Poll Results: Should Germany become a military superpower again?
Yes it should. 66 49.62%
No it should not. 67 50.38%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 1 votes, 1.00 average.
Old January 7th, 2009   #1
Senior Member
Colonel
F-15 Eagle's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,332
Threads:
Should Germany become a military superpower again?

I have noticed that ever since WWII the German military has decreased in size over the years almost non-stop too so I was wondering. Should Germany re-arm its armed forces and increase its size to at least 1 million troops and even make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships? I have posted a poll as well to see what everyone here thinks?
________________
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."

-- Albert Einstein
F-15 Eagle is offline  
Old January 7th, 2009   #2
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
Actually, the German Military grew constantly between the late 50s and late 80s (1985: 500k active, 800k reserve plus 40k paramilitary). The Cold War plans drawn up in the early 60s - and severely reduced by the late 60s - called for 520k active soldiers, almost reached in 1985 to 1989 with constant increase until then.

Only post-Cold-War, troop numbers were reduced - and are still well above 50s levels today. Besides which, Germany is still subject to 2+4 and CFE - and hence limited to 350k soldiers, only 140% of the current level.

Besides which - what would you need 1 million soldiers for? Btw, Germany "does make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships".

That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!
kato is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #3
New Member
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Long Beach, NY
Posts: 18
Threads:
Perhaps a more prudent question would be: "Should Germany act like a military superpower again?"

In which case, probably not. The Germans won't get anything good from beating up Poland and France again. No point to it.

Germany has the technology and industrial output to be a superpower, but not the will or the population base.
11561 is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #4
Junior Member
Private First Class
Onkel's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 76
Threads:
The world doesn´t need another superpower, nor there is a need for Germany for beeing one. The existing military powers make things bad enough quite now.

We could discuss if it wouldn´t be wise to keep more self-defense-capabilities, especially heavy equipment, apart from that Germanies economical power guaranties wealthiness and safety- what more should it need?
Onkel is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #5
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 13,169
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kato View Post
Besides which - what would you need 1 million soldiers for? Btw, Germany "does make its own fighters, bombers, tanks and ships".

That's three times the current US levels - or, even including the vast paramilitary forces, still twice the Chinese levels!
Wait what? I think he meant that 1 million men in the armed forces overall. And I don't think Germany has the population for that.
Feanor is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #6
Super Moderator
Lieutenant General
SABRE's Avatar
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,677
Threads:
Before I jump into this discussion I have a question. Why should Germany become a superpower?
________________
"It is better to accept an end with a horror then face horror with no end." - Karl Von Clausewitz
SABRE is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #7
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
Wait what? I think he meant that 1 million men in the armed forces overall. And I don't think Germany has the population for that.
1 million soldiers in Germany would mean three times the engaged manpower per population in comparison to the USA currently, or twice the engaged manpower per population in comparison to China (when including the 4.5 million or so paramilitary forces).

Of course Germany has the population to support 1 million men at peacetime. We'd just need to extent conscription to the same length as Israel, and presto, 1 million men and women in the Bundeswehr.
kato is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #8
Super Moderator
General
Feanor's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Under your bed. No seriously, take a look.
Posts: 13,169
Threads:
I mean there is a recommended demographic ratio of soldiers to population, and I can't be over 1% before the adverse effects start to compound on the economy.
Feanor is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #9
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
Always depends. You can always feed back soldiers into economic processes, such as by taking over certain branch industries (construction is always a favourite of course), or you can try to get below such critical levels by engaging a good proportion of soldiers in more-or-less paramilitary uses.

Today in peacetime Israel is at 2.4%, Greece is at 1.6%, Turkey at 1.4%. West Germany in the late 80s with 500k soldiers was at a mere 0.8% (East Germany was at 0.9% during the same time), and even with 1 million soldiers today would still be well below Turkish levels.
kato is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #10
Defense Enthusiast
Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 276
Threads:
Umm....and the last three times Germany acted like a Superpower......!?!?!

On a more serious note, I would agree with the previous sentiment of: "...and Germany would being doing this for the purposes of ...........?"

Brett.
battlensign is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #11
Senior Member
Major
nevidimka's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,002
Threads:
I'd love to see that. They have the economic power and technological capability to become 1. I don't believe Hitler was their 1 trick pony.
nevidimka is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #12
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
On a somewhat lighter note, the 2002/2003 Lamy-Verheugen-Plan would have entered the Bundeswehr into a standing national 600,000-man field army at the time, with 150,000 combatant paramilitaries and wartime reserves pushing this to easily around 1.7 million relatively readily available. With 650+ fighter jets, a 250-unit navy, and 2,200 MBTs (without reserves).

Now that would have been a military superpower.
kato is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #13
Senior Member
Major
nevidimka's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,002
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kato View Post
On a somewhat lighter note, the 2002/2003 Lamy-Verheugen-Plan would have entered the Bundeswehr into a standing national 600,000-man field army at the time, with 150,000 combatant paramilitaries and wartime reserves pushing this to easily around 1.7 million relatively readily available. With 650+ fighter jets, a 250-unit navy, and 2,200 MBTs (without reserves).

Now that would have been a military superpower.
NO, IMO that only makes them a military power. To be a military superpower, you'd need to be mroe numerical superior, nuke's, and power projection capability with your navy and air force.
nevidimka is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #14
Defense Professional / Analyst
Lieutenant General
kato's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,916
Threads:
The Lamy-Verheugen Military would have had nukes. And good enough power projection capacities. And a UN SC veto.
kato is offline  
Old January 8th, 2009   #15
Senior Member
Major
nevidimka's Avatar
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,002
Threads:
Wouldnt that bring germany into the level of UK and France? A superpower would need significantly more than that.

For a country as small as Germany that does not have the vast size of USA and Soviet Union, to be considered a superpower, it would need to have a huge power projection capability through its Navy and Air force to compensate for that.
nevidimka is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:02 AM.