SAS training Afghan troops Ruled out

[Rayna]

From the article i posted yestersay, US: Fight for us, you may need us - National - NZ Herald News came this one, ruling out the NZSAS training Afghan troops. Key rules out SAS training Afghan troops - National - NZ Herald News I find it interesting that Key has grown some balls so to speak and telling the USA "no" after his stance backing Don Brash's views on Iraq when it came to issue and then withdrawing his statements once we realized how sour it was. Its good to see that the party isn't just doing everything Uncle Sam wants anymore.


I find it interesting that they wanted us to train their troops, a country that even after the fall of the teliban opted for "Family Law" which legalized martial rape and much else. While i do believe we have a part in assisting the US in attempting introduce a democracy and eliminating the terrorism in the middle east but I really don't think it is anywhere near appropriate for us to help train the Afghan military when they still seem to opt back to anti democratic ways when they are no longer under such ruling.

What is everyones thoughts?

 

[OPSSG]

I don't think that it is unusual for the US to request for more contributions from their allies (at their time of need), unless your country wants to adopt a non-aligned position - which will carry with it certain implications, like the need to increase your defence spending. You can always opt out from the call for help - just don't expect the US to opt in to help you in your time of need.

IMO, be glad that your SAS is well regarded enough to be requested for.

 

[Rayna]

I don't think that it is unusual for the US to request for more contributions from their allies (at their time of need), unless your country wants to adopt a non-aligned position - which will carry with it certain implications, like the need to increase your defence spending. You can always opt out from the call for help - just don't expect the US to opt in to help you in your time of need.

IMO, be glad that your SAS is well regarded enough to be requested for.

Oh no I not outraged, as I mentioned I support troops there supporting the USA and other countries that are there. Helping eliminate the Taliban and other terrorist groups, protect certain village, govt officials etc Just not in the line of training afghan troops. I support what they have been doing already but what i was meaning when our government saying no. In the instance of the their "help us or else attitude" can be described as bullying.

 

[OPSSG]

In the instance of the their "help us or else attitude" can be described as bullying.

We both live in small states and both our countries need external security partners. We cannot choose what happens in the external environment but we can choose how we react to such requests.

IMO, the US 'bullying' is very mild compared to actions by other lesser powers. Read up about Indonesia-Singapore relations in relation to the 2007 sand dispute (read post #36 of the link provided) and the arbitrary arrest arrest of a Singapore citizen that occurred. That is bullying.

 

[dave_kiwi]

Of course one has appreciate the irony here - under Labour, the 'government' that 'killed' ANZUS, the SAS deployed three (3) times to the 'Ghan -- and I think from memory, with a lot less publicity than now.

The SAS, during this time, received a Presidential Commendation, and a NZ VC was awarded.

In this morning's NZ Herald, John Key is stating its a "line ball call" re SAS deploying -- my guess will be, now that Key has "thumb'd his nose" at the Yanks, the SAS will go.

 

[Rayna]

We both live in small states and both our countries need external security partners. We cannot choose what happens in the external environment but we can choose how we react to such requests.

IMO, the US 'bullying' is very mild compared to actions by other lesser powers. Read up about Indonesia-Singapore relations in relation to the 2007 sand dispute (read post #36 of the link provided) and the arbitrary arrest arrest of a Singapore citizen that occurred. That is bullying.

Point taken, of course its mild.I don't think the US, would ever stoop down that low if so, other nations wouldn't be to happy.

And update of this issue SAS going back to war a line-ball call - PM - National - NZ Herald News

My opinion would be of course to keep the SAS there but not in training their troops, both Labour and National agree on this. If we had to, have our other troops train not the SAS. Keep assisting in other areas covert and overt.

Of course one has appreciate the irony here - under Labour, the 'government' that 'killed' ANZUS, the SAS deployed three (3) times to the 'Ghan -- and I think from memory, with a lot less publicity than now.

The SAS, during this time, received a Presidential Commendation, and a NZ VC was awarded.

In this morning's NZ Herald, John Key is stating its a "line ball call" re SAS deploying -- my guess will be, now that Key has "thumb'd his nose" at the Yanks, the SAS will go.

That's what i was thinking ... And i think that labour did more than they were letting on as well. We sent troops at the start and didn't even tell anyone... I think Nicky Hager was suppose to publish something about their secret war on terror but that was a few years back when Hallow Men was released but this far ahead now i guess not.

 

[p.l.rue]

From the article i posted yestersay, US: Fight for us, you may need us - National - NZ Herald News came this one, ruling out the NZSAS training Afghan troops. Key rules out SAS training Afghan troops - National - NZ Herald News I find it interesting that Key has grown some balls so to speak and telling the USA "no" after his stance backing Don Brash's views on Iraq when it came to issue and then withdrawing his statements once we realized how sour it was. Its good to see that the party isn't just doing everything Uncle Sam wants anymore.


I find it interesting that they wanted us to train their troops, a country that even after the fall of the teliban opted for "Family Law" which legalized martial rape and much else. While i do believe we have a part in assisting the US in attempting introduce a democracy and eliminating the terrorism in the middle east but I really don't think it is anywhere near appropriate for us to help train the Afghan military when they still seem to opt back to anti democratic ways when they are no longer under such ruling.

What is everyones thoughts?

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

 

[Rayna]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

You are right, They are able to fund these small terrorist groups by higher pay compared to the Afghan army by drug trafficking.
The issue with pay is for them to be able to pay more, they would have to raise taxes to a already deprived nation or cut spending on things that need it more than ever the result of the second is similar. Another issue would be if they did rise pay for the countries military, the opposite would do the same. So in a way, us training them would be counter productive.

 

[steve33]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

You mention the UK on a friday night through to sunday well if you are talking about people getting drunk and being louts not everyone does that and if you think living under strict sharia law is the way to go you should try living in an area controlled by the taliban in Pakistan i,m sure you would have a great time.

Who cares about Afganistan? well maybe after a terror attack planned by Al Qaeda from Afganistan kills a member of you family you will care.

 

[steve33]

The Air Service has little to teach the tribes of Afganistan as the state of sickeners is not reduced to inshalla. How can you reduce the level of expectancy to a person who has nothing to lose and the determination to survive except with Gods will. As to weapons training, I look on with envy at the skill at cobbling an AK together from a variety of sources without it blowing up in their faces. As to pay the Tally is paid roughly twice that of the government forces. Politically maybe we've got it wrong and they,ve got it right. Check out the cities in the UK Friday night thru Sunday and thats living? My attitude to Afganistan is Who Cares Anyway. P.L Rue

As for cobbling together an AK from a variety of sources they are far better funded than having to resort to that they are making millions from drugs.

 

[p.l.rue]

You mention the UK on a friday night through to sunday well if you are talking about people getting drunk and being louts not everyone does that and if you think living under strict sharia law is the way to go you should try living in an area controlled by the taliban in Pakistan i,m sure you would have a great time.

Who cares about Afganistan? well maybe after a terror attack planned by Al Qaeda from Afganistan kills a member of you family you will care.

Firstly Arganistan is not a country but a collection of tribes in which NATO has placed itself in the middle.Unfortunately our millitary might is wasted on outdated concepts of design and application. The shoot and scoot tactics of the anti government forces means that Nato is on the back foot all the time though there are notable successes generally at the expense of the local population. If NATO pulled out they would start shooting at one another again. These people love conflict,200yrs ago the uk lost an army there doesn't our the British parl;iament read history, you cannot tactically do anything with a location which is in the stone age.As for international terrorism thats in the hands of God not man. If you think you can shoot these people into submission I suggest the people who would like an object lesson join the british army or the us marines they're good and show me the way. Engleesi britanee maffi muhkt as the saying goes

 

[Rayna]

Firstly Arganistan is not a country but a collection of tribes in which NATO has placed itself in the middle.Unfortunately our millitary might is wasted on outdated concepts of design and application. The shoot and scoot tactics of the anti government forces means that Nato is on the back foot all the time though there are notable successes generally at the expense of the local population. If NATO pulled out they would start shooting at one another again. These people love conflict,200yrs ago the uk lost an army there doesn't our the British parl;iament read history, you cannot tactically do anything with a location which is in the stone age.As for international terrorism thats in the hands of God not man. If you think you can shoot these people into submission I suggest the people who would like an object lesson join the british army or the us marines they're good and show me the way. Engleesi britanee maffi muhkt as the saying goes

Something i feel i should bring up here is you are looking at the political aspects of it. How about the serious human rights violations? Woman are forbidden education under Taliban rule and a few other extremists groups. Woman who are caught are flogged and have acid thrown on their faces. Woman are confined to their homes. Woman have their clitoris's cut out (so they aren't able to enjoy intercourse) and usually in a very unpleasant manner. In area's where the Taliban rules, they have restricted schools to teaching only what they believed should be taught. Their interpretation of the Quran. So I am someone who cares about Afghanistan because I take stuff like this personally.

There are so many people that want to get out and don't want to be under that ruling. A few years ago we accepted a few refuges. They came here not knowing English but he was encouraging his the woman in his family to get an education, get out working and learn English wanting to change. I have run in to some of those girls today, now they fully speak English got partners and are at polytechnics learning and starting new lives.

But that aside what we are doing here Old traditions die hard, We can't get them to change after only a few years of being there. How they live, think and act will take time to change. Generations.

 

[p.l.rue]

Something i feel i should bring up here is you are looking at the political aspects of it. How about the serious human rights violations? Woman are forbidden education under Taliban rule and a few other extremists groups. Woman who are caught are flogged and have acid thrown on their faces. Woman are confined to their homes. Woman have their clitoris's cut out (so they aren't able to enjoy intercourse) and usually in a very unpleasant manner. In area's where the Taliban rules, they have restricted schools to teaching only what they believed should be taught. Their interpretation of the Quran. So I am someone who cares about Afghanistan because I take stuff like this personally.

There are so many people that want to get out and don't want to be under that ruling. A few years ago we accepted a few refuges. They came here not knowing English but he was encouraging his the woman in his family to get an education, get out working and learn English wanting to change. I have run in to some of those girls today, now they fully speak English got partners and are at polytechnics learning and starting new lives.

But that aside what we are doing here Old traditions die hard, We can't get them to change after only a few years of being there. How they live, think and act will take time to change. Generations.

Please pass on
Hi Rayna
I hear where you're coming from. Unfortunately society in the mddle east, Baluchistan and Afganistan isn't. There is also a case that a greater part of the male part of UK males would agree with the Arab-eeya view of women as non beings other than the focus of mans will. Women will get equal justice when wealth is spread across their daily bread and famillies have time to stand back and enjoy the view. The daily grind of existance does not allow women to find an equal place. There was hope as a female judge/cleric was doing valuable work, but she was slotted a while ago. This was an incredibly beatiful area,rugged mountains coming down to the lush areas below, the evening silence broken now with high flying jets waiting to be called in for ground support requirements. The obscenity continues. That so much wealth can be thrown into destruction when it could be used to build. The inconsistencies are profound, weapon systems that are recycled no part numbers match (everything has to be humped across the border areas ) and female children used to check the viabillity of a growing area incase of anti-p mines. Some of the ied's shells have origionated from unguarded ammo dumps in Iraq, Iran is not helping and the border areas of Pakistan are leaky as hell. I know where you're coming from Rayna. Have u Pashti or bolluch origions. P

 

[Marc 1]

Gross waste of well trained soldiers. If NZ is going to train the ANA, regular troops would be a much better option, particularly those with experience as instructors in training establishments.

Leave the SAS to do what they do best.

 

[recce.k1]

Gross waste of well trained soldiers. If NZ is going to train the ANA, regular troops would be a much better option, particularly those with experience as instructors in training establishments.

Leave the SAS to do what they do best.

I'd agree with that sentiment (mind you, I'm speaking from an uninformed non-military background). From Rayna's second link in her first post, some selected quotes:

American vice admiral William Sullivan has told the Herald New Zealand's Special Air Service troops are ideally suited to a "mentoring" role. This would involve the SAS training Afghan army units and fighting the Taleban.

Operational Mentor and Liaison Teams, dubbed "omelettes", play an important role in the war because they are training the Afghan Army and police so international forces can eventually leave.

The danger arises from the mentor troops being paired with their less-able Afghan counterparts on missions rather than relying on their own loyal and highly trained colleagues.

"It is more than just training and pushing them out the door. It is going with them when they go out the door.

"They go with them on operations and they live with them. They help them plan missions. It is an ideal role for your SAS."

In March, Australian mentor Mathew Hopkins was shot dead by the Taleban, and a just-released report has revealed serious failings by the Afghans the corporal was mentoring.

It says the locals played only a limited role when the joint patrol came under heavy fire and the Australians had to take control even though there were far fewer of them and they were only there in support.

I'm not sure I agree with the Admiral saying "It is an ideal role for your SAS". Perhaps maybe for other elements of NZ's Regular Forces (but these guys are already stretched, being a small Army and all that) so probably have little capacity to assist. Granted though, the training of the ANA is important.

When the NZSAS last deplyed to Afghanistan in 2005 their mission was to "specialise in long-range reconnaissance and "direct action missions". "
Surely the NZSAS would be wanting to do more of that?

 

[StevoJH]

As Marc said, probably a better use of resources to look for former instructors that are still in the non spec-ops portion of the army, whether they are reservists or regulars, and send them over as mentors. I'm guessing the older the soldier the better even (don't they respect their elders over there?).

 

[Rayna]

Marc 1, recce.k1 - Good to see others are thinking around the same lines.
And I am sure the SAS would be wanting to be doing more of that. Although have never met one to asked what they would want to be doing.

StevoJH - Former Instructors? This might be an idea but how ready would they be to go into Afghanistan?

 

[recce.k1]

What's the current situation regarding private contractors becoming/being available in significant numbers (if not already?) for ANA training in Afghanistan?

After all, like most Armies, there apparently is or was a very far share of former NZ Army senior & experienced ranks (including those vital NCO's) working for them (hundreds?) in Iraq!

And can we contract them back to the NZ Army for training even? Thus freeing up experienced RF training staff for deployments (or ANA training)? I'm sure NZDF personnel would welcome the experience (both ways).

Anyway back to the discussion, if NZSAS not likely to train ANA (unless it was a SF arm perhaps? However I simply suspect PM Key's reasoning not to may possibly be from the Aussie SAS mentoring experience eg NZDF & ADF assess these things, right, and it's not the kiwi's cup of tea?) and would rather operate alongside with other SF's then surely the NZSAS would be better placed there, after all they are quite at ease operating in the extreme and varying conditions there etc.

 

[Kip]

I'd rather our SAS do the jobs they are trained for and know they can do well, rather than expect them to do jobs they aren't trained to do. Send them over for those tasks alone. I'm sure they are needed.

 

[OPSSG]

StevoJH - Former Instructors? This might be an idea but how ready would they be to go into Afghanistan?

All armies have instructional positions and 'schools', so what he is saying is send some infantry trained instructors who are currently in 'schools'.