Putin offers alternative missile defense plan

XaNDeR

New Member
KENNEBUNKPORT, Maine (AP) -- Vladimir Putin, fiercely opposed to U.S. plans for missile defense in Europe, tried out new Russian alternatives on President Bush on Monday. Bush called the ideas "innovative" but said the U.S. still wants to anchor the defense in Poland and the Czech Republic.
art.bush.putin.ap.jpg

Presidents Putin and Bush have agreed to send a "strong message" to Iran over its nuclear program.

The two leaders, meeting at the oceanfront compound of Bush's father, sought to restart U.S.-Russian relations after months of acrimony.

"Do I trust him? Yes, I trust him," Bush said about Putin, who stood alongside him on the lawn of the estate that overlooks the rocky Atlantic coast. "Do I like everything he says? No. And I suspect he doesn't like everything I say. But we're able to say it in a way that shows mutual respect."

On Putin's missile defense ideas, Bush said: "I think it's very sincere. I think it's innovative. I think it's strategic. But as I told Vladimir, I think that the Czech Republic and Poland need to be an integral part of a system."

Last month, Putin surprised Bush in Germany by proposing a Soviet-era early warning radar in Azerbaijan as a substitute for the radar and interceptors the United States wants to place in Poland and the Czech Republic. Washington has been clear it doubts the Azerbaijan facility is up to becoming a substitute.

The Russian leader fleshed out his suggestion on Monday.

Putin proposed possibly modernizing the Azerbaijan station. He suggested bringing more European nations into the decision-making process about how the shield is structured, and maybe incorporating a radar system in southern Russia. He suggested information-exchange centers in Moscow and possibly Brussels as a way to strengthen the Washington-Moscow national security relationship.

"The relationship of our two countries would be raised to an entirely new level," Putin said.

Bush said he agreed with having a more regional approach to missile defense, but he didn't budge on his desire to put installations in Poland and the Czech Republic, something Russia has opposed.

Stephen Hadley, Bush's national security adviser, acknowledged that the two leaders do not have completely "harmonious" views about missile defense. But he said Putin's idea showed the Russian leader was serious about cooperating on the issue.

Both leaders, who dined on pancakes and omelets for breakfast and curried zucchini soup and chicken salad for lunch, smiled and seemed eager to portray a strong, stable relationship between the two nations. Putin is the first head of state to be hosted at the Maine summer home by President Bush, an attempt to warm relations in a place of sparkling views and summertime weather.

Putin went so far as to say that the striped bass he caught on a morning fishing trip with Bush and his father, former President George H.W. Bush, was a "team effort."

Bush said that while Putin sometimes says things he doesn't like to hear, he is convinced that Putin is telling the truth. He commented on "an amazing transformation" that's taking place in Russia, such as eliminating its debt, growing its middle class and becoming a "significant international player" -- all points sure to resonate with Putin and his pride in his country.

"Is it perfect in the eyes of Americans? Not necessarily. Is the change real? Absolutely," Bush said. "And it's in our interests, the U.S. interests, to have good solid relations with Russia and that's what Vladimir and I have worked hard to achieve."

Trying to portray a solid relationship, Hadley told reporters that the two nations have reached a civilian nuclear cooperation agreement to be signed Tuesday by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

The agreement assures countries that want peaceful nuclear power programs that they will have support of the international community as long as they don't contribute to nuclear weapons proliferation. Hadley said there also will be a document addressing the two nations' strategic nuclear forces after the expiration of the START I agreement in 2009.

Bush would not say whether or not the United States and Russia have agreed on tougher sanctions against Iran, saying only that the two countries stand together in opposition to Tehran's nuclear program. He said he is counting on the Russians' support to send a clear message to the Iranians.

"We're close on recognizing that we got to work together to send a common message," Bush said without elaborating.
advertisement

U.N. Security Council members have begun discussing a U.S. proposal for sanctions against Iran because of its refusal to stop enriching uranium. The U.S., Russia and their fellow permanent U.N. Security Council members, however, have told Iran they will hold off on new sanctions if it stops expanding its enrichment activities while they seek to restart talks about the program with Tehran. Diplomats say the Iranian government has not yet responded to the proposal.

Putin, who has been less willing to rush to imposing tougher sanctions if diplomacy could be effective, said, "I think all of this would contribute to further substantial intercourse on this issue."

And source : http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/02/bush.putin.ap/index.html
 

falcon2k7

New Member
Here is my read of the situation: Putin wants missiles to cover Russia's southern flank from China. Frankly I say give him a couple radars and 30 missiles under Russian command.

What's been said in closed doors is harder to judge, but if the goal is a system that can *possibly* intercept a ballistic missile is generally a good thing. It could help prevent disaster in case of a rouge launch or accidental launch between nuclear powers.
 

contedicavour

New Member
NATO-Russia cooperation is key if we want to get Russia aboard on the fight to neutralize rogue states' IRBMs (and one day ICBMs).
Putin needs a moral/symbolic victory and getting Russia inside the programme would make him relent on criticism of the US and Europe. It could even help technologically.

cheers
 

mysterious

New Member
From the available information, it is clear that the Russian radar facility in Azerbaijan is not going to be US' choice for the simple reason that it was designed with the intention of targetting the southern lying regions and because of this it does not cover the entire length and breadth of the territory of Iran.
 

LancerMc

New Member
Well there still a lot of negotiations to do before any concrete plan comes about between the U.S. and Russia about a shared missile defense programs and bases. At least talks are now going in a positive direction. The threat of nuclear weapons once again being pointed at Europe was never a great notion. I would think a main base in the proposed site by the Russians and some other interceptors stationed in the rest of Europe seems most likely to be the future conclusion. The U.S. will probably stipulate that their interceptors cover all over Iranian territory.
 

mysterious

New Member
That is the thing, political and other factors aside, technically, the facility does not fit in to US planning and that is the biggest disadvantage to start with. Besides, the facility's current equipment is Cold War era (vintage) and is only designed as an early warning radar station aimed at US bases in and around the Indian Ocean.

The costs of converting it (& upgrading) to make it in to a system which can guide interceptor missiles at incoming missiles would be atleast double than what it would cost the US to build a new base in Poland from scratch.
 

contedicavour

New Member
What you say about the radar facility in Azerbaijan is true.
However the political cost of antagonizing Russia by continuing with the Polish and Czech bases' construction would be huge.
It is probably better to spend an extra billion dollar or 2 now to involve Russian facilities rather than spending Reagan-era defence budgets again to counter a reborn Cold War threat. The ICBM Bulava launch and the new SSBNs coming into service are enough of a sign that Putin is ready to spend most of its oil & gas wealth into a rearmament spree.

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
But this is just muscle flexing.
Even with the current high oil & gas prices russia will not be able to join a new arms race against the US let alone against NATO.
 

contedicavour

New Member
But this is just muscle flexing.
Even with the current high oil & gas prices russia will not be able to join a new arms race against the US let alone against NATO.
I agree that they won't be able to mount an arsenal comparable with late '80s Cold War USSR, but they clearly can wreck havoc on the world stage. Just think of all of the press' reaction to the order for 5 636/Kilo SSKs for Venezuela. If Russia manages to build enough new SSBNs (Dolgoruki/Borej class), export more S300 SAMs and SU30MKI or MIG 29SMT, then the disruptive power over the international order is huge.

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Who has enough money to filed countable numbers of modern MiGs, SUs, Kilos, etc. and don't have them by now?
I don't think that the russians are going to give them away for free just to stress the west.
 

falcon2k7

New Member
What you say about the radar facility in Azerbaijan is true.
However the political cost of antagonizing Russia by continuing with the Polish and Czech bases' construction would be huge.
It is probably better to spend an extra billion dollar or 2 now to involve Russian facilities rather than spending Reagan-era defence budgets again to counter a reborn Cold War threat. The ICBM Bulava launch and the new SSBNs coming into service are enough of a sign that Putin is ready to spend most of its oil & gas wealth into a rearmament spree.

cheers
bang on.

It's cheaper to work with the Russians and build a radar station where Russia wants it with a dozen missiles. What Bush said at the G8 was frank: "Stop posturing and let's work together and get something done." And I think something will be worked out that includes both Europe and SE. Asia with the Russians.
 

performance

New Member
This isn't about monetary costs. We are trying to isolate Russia. Russia has and will always align itself against the west regardless of its current political system.

The only reason to build missile defense systems in eastern Europe is to weaken the Russian situation.

I think alot of people are thinking in the context of today when all these moves are being executed and planned thinking about decades from now when Russia and other countries are coming closer to convergence.
 

KevinB

New Member
bang on.

It's cheaper to work with the Russians and build a radar station where Russia wants it with a dozen missiles. What Bush said at the G8 was frank: "Stop posturing and let's work together and get something done." And I think something will be worked out that includes both Europe and SE. Asia with the Russians.
Absolutely.

There is no need for another Cold War between the U.S. and Russia.

Let's build the radar station where Putin wants it. At the very least, it will demonstrate whether or not he's sincere about defending Europe from a rouge Iranian missile.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
While we discuss about this radar station and if it is dangerous for Russia or not Russia is introducing new ICBMs, SLBM and SSBNs, as well as the idea of sationing SRBMs in Königsberg.

The idea about this radar station being a real threat to Russia is bullshit. As if a handfull of missiles is going to stop any nuclear attack of Russia against Europe.
Hell, they still have thousands of warheads...
And this is also not going to be Sauronns evil eye spying deep into russia.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Who has enough money to filed countable numbers of modern MiGs, SUs, Kilos, etc. and don't have them by now?
I don't think that the russians are going to give them away for free just to stress the west.
Absolutely, Russia wants to sell these with a profit. There is enough oil money around in countries such as Venezuela, Libya, Iran, Indonesia, etc to pay for these systems. China and India will continue to buy Russian systems as well.
Any country fielding S300PMU or V plus Tor is well placed to resist air bombardments. Add a few squadrons of SU30MKI with R77 and R73 and the whole place becomes a real problem. Add a dozen Amur/Lada SSKs with SSMs and any amphibious landing becomes problematic. I'm not even mentioning T90 MBTs and land systems.
All of this can only be exported by Russia...
Hence the interest in not angering them too much. Let's give them an interest in keeping peace and profiting from a stable world order. Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't negotiate hard to gain a maximum in exchange.

cheers
 

dioditto

New Member
While we discuss about this radar station and if it is dangerous for Russia or not Russia is introducing new ICBMs, SLBM and SSBNs, as well as the idea of sationing SRBMs in Königsberg.

The idea about this radar station being a real threat to Russia is bullshit. As if a handfull of missiles is going to stop any nuclear attack of Russia against Europe.
Hell, they still have thousands of warheads...
And this is also not going to be Sauronns evil eye spying deep into russia.
I mean, you can't blame the russian being suspecious and overtly defensive. I can understand the Russian sentiment. I mean, after all, Russia was invaded by Europeans twice in the past. So their suspicion is well deserved. I mean who knows the future holds, maybe Waylander may be radicalized by neo-neo-fascism and wants to invade Russia again! (just kidding hehe) :D
 

merocaine

New Member
Russia has and will always align itself against the west regardless of its current political system.
Really? Your obviously a student of history, perhaps you can explain such aberations as, the first world war, the second world war, the Nepolionic wars, the Russo-swedish war(s).
 

merocaine

New Member
I mean, you can't blame the russian being suspecious and overtly defensive. I can understand the Russian sentiment. I mean, after all, Russia was invaded by Europeans twice in the past
Actually, its much more than that, Prussians once, Swedes twice, France twice, Britian once, Germany twice.

And thats not counting the 1919-21 russian civil war where everyone had a pop.
 
Top