I watch very carefully the war in middle East and I can say I'm very concerned,about the casualties in both sides.I'm not going to say who is right or wrong ,but I can't realise how can someone using satellites,and the most advanced technology be confused that some workers loading fruits in trucks were terrorists loading trucks with bombs.I thought that the newest technology allows someone to clearly see his target.
Protection of civilians
- Thread starter Gerasimos
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^those are my thoughts too.
but someone will say "civilians die in war".
true but they are not supposed to.
might as well say Madrid bombings were justified and were not terrorist attacks becuz of Spain's involvement in the Iraq war.
Edit~Sorry to bring politics.I forgot it was forbidden.
but someone will say "civilians die in war".
true but they are not supposed to.
might as well say Madrid bombings were justified and were not terrorist attacks becuz of Spain's involvement in the Iraq war.
Edit~Sorry to bring politics.I forgot it was forbidden.
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A
Aussie Digger
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Whilst I don't condone indiscriminate killings of ANYBODY even "enemy" forces, the technology is hardly at a point where targeting capabilities "clearly" see targets.Gerasimos said:
Look at a file like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qdsx669ZuMs
You can make out people, cars, buildings etc. NOT who they are, what they are doing whether they are legitimate military targets or people simply trying to flee. This footage is from an AC-130 Gunship as well, which is widely regarded as one of the most "accurate" aerial fire support platforms around.
Unfortunately airpower can deliver massive firepower quickly, onto a target, but precise identification of what they are targetting, requires people (special forces or ground based targetting specialists) on the ground relatively close by to accurately confirm what they are actually hitting.
Unfortunately the mass media never bothers to explain this, even if they understand it, which is highly debatable and as such most discussions of these natures, occur with almost complete ignorance of the realities of life AND warfare...
In many cities around the United States and the world there is a building called a national guard armory, or armory, usually in an industrial or commerial area. Unfortunately, armories don't seem to exist in many of the Muslim nations. Instead of a building in an industrial area or commercial area, US forces in Iraq found armories in hospitals, schools, apartment buidings, and mosques! All of these types of buildings are usually in residential areas. Holy ground is supposed to be a scantuary. Schools are for children. Hospitals are where the doctors and nurses work filled with sick people.
When hospitals, schools, and mosques are used as armories, they no longer have scantuary. What's worst, many Muslims tend to use apartment buildings and office buildings as armories too. Any nation that uses such building as armories, don't deserve any mercy. Any of the press media that cries about civilian deaths when armories are in residential areas don't deserve to exist.
Notice that the Lebanese army is not deployed or has any bases south of Beirut. Yet, thousands of missiles, rockets, and automatic weapons have been used in this supposely civilian area south of Beirut by civilians! Remember, the Lebanese army is not deployed anywhere south of Beirut. This is what I find depressing. When civilians don't play by the rules of the Geneva Convention, don't expect mercy from anyone when you're being hit time and time and time again. Per the Geneva Convention, armies are supposed to wear distintive clothing, and are supported by a nation in international warfare, not a religious sect. In internal civil wars, these rules change a bit. Unfortunately, in this case, civilians are shooting off rockets toward a neighboring nation, by every definition an international conflict.
When hospitals, schools, and mosques are used as armories, they no longer have scantuary. What's worst, many Muslims tend to use apartment buildings and office buildings as armories too. Any nation that uses such building as armories, don't deserve any mercy. Any of the press media that cries about civilian deaths when armories are in residential areas don't deserve to exist.
Notice that the Lebanese army is not deployed or has any bases south of Beirut. Yet, thousands of missiles, rockets, and automatic weapons have been used in this supposely civilian area south of Beirut by civilians! Remember, the Lebanese army is not deployed anywhere south of Beirut. This is what I find depressing. When civilians don't play by the rules of the Geneva Convention, don't expect mercy from anyone when you're being hit time and time and time again. Per the Geneva Convention, armies are supposed to wear distintive clothing, and are supported by a nation in international warfare, not a religious sect. In internal civil wars, these rules change a bit. Unfortunately, in this case, civilians are shooting off rockets toward a neighboring nation, by every definition an international conflict.
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^^ I think any guerilla campaign will resort to similar tactics when faced with a technologically superior power, being muslim, christian or voodoan has nothing to do with it. Hezbollah is like a mini army existing mostly within the population of southern Lebanon and this in turn puts the civilians at risk of Israeli fire. Israel, it seems, is caught in a catch 22 situation.
Actually the people caught in a Catch 22 situation are the ones who are suffering the most casualties, the civilians of Southern Lebanon. Guerilla tactics are accepted by the Geneva Convention, as long as the targets are of military value. Unfortunately, firing rockets at civililan targets in Northern Israel does not meet the conditions of the Geneva Convention. Nor does placing the rocket launchers in residential areas. Nor does having weapons caches in hospitals, mosques, schools, and residential homes. When nations cannot control or disarm a religious sect, simply put, that nation no longer has any credibility to exist in the eyes of international law.
I said earlier on other threads Israel should be using SEIGE tactics. Thanks to the appeasers aid was rushed into Southern Lebanon under the cloak of the UN and Red Cross. Since the beginning of this conflict, the Muslims have been screaming for a cease fire. When it appears the UN is finally authorizing a cease fire, the ones against it are Lebanon and the radical Muslims, Hezbollah.
If this is the thanks the international community receives for rushing in the food and supplies, the international community has the obligation NOT to send in the food and supplies, and ALLOW Israel to proceed with its SEIGE tactics.
While Hezbollah will never give in, I suspect eventually when enough of its citizens are dying for lack of food, the nation of Lebanon will run up a white sheet. Its obvious to those of us from the Christian West that Hezbollah could care less about its civilian casualties, the sovreignty of Lebanon, the resolutions of the United Nations, or the articles of the Geneva Convention. Why should we care about them or their followers? Why give aid to people who hate us, and will never thank us?
I said earlier on other threads Israel should be using SEIGE tactics. Thanks to the appeasers aid was rushed into Southern Lebanon under the cloak of the UN and Red Cross. Since the beginning of this conflict, the Muslims have been screaming for a cease fire. When it appears the UN is finally authorizing a cease fire, the ones against it are Lebanon and the radical Muslims, Hezbollah.
If this is the thanks the international community receives for rushing in the food and supplies, the international community has the obligation NOT to send in the food and supplies, and ALLOW Israel to proceed with its SEIGE tactics.
While Hezbollah will never give in, I suspect eventually when enough of its citizens are dying for lack of food, the nation of Lebanon will run up a white sheet. Its obvious to those of us from the Christian West that Hezbollah could care less about its civilian casualties, the sovreignty of Lebanon, the resolutions of the United Nations, or the articles of the Geneva Convention. Why should we care about them or their followers? Why give aid to people who hate us, and will never thank us?
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #7
I totally disagree with you first of all peace process will begin when a solution is good for both sides not for just the one of them(you know what I mean).Secondly are we serious,we are going to let innocent people die without sending humanitarian aid in order to make them surrender?This is 2006,not the time of crusades against muslims.I don't care whose is right or wrong of the two nations,I just want to see wounded children to get medical aid,food etc,If we want to be call CHRISTIAN West then we should rush for humanitarian aid.Somebody hates someone because he thinks that he has treated him in a bad way(I think you can understand the meaning of my words).Sea Toby said:
While UN resolutions maybe confusing, or conflicting one another, the accords of the Geneva Convention are crystal clear, and have been for decades. Hebzollah's score concerning tactics in keeping to the accords is zero, Israel's score is near 90 percent. As different as night and day! Of course, there is a difference between using professional soldiers and thugs.
You talk about the Geneva convention...the same convention which your country's troops blatantly ignore in Iraq, the same Geneva convention which your country refused to extend to 'unlawful combatants' (leave it to the spin doctors to come up with new nomenclature and abbreviations) and it is the same convention which your country (and Israel) ignore when kidnapping people from other sovereign nations and transporting them to secret detention centers located all over the globe.
So excuse me for not taking you seriously when you try to adopt a high moral ground by talking about conventions and resolutions.
You want a people to thank you for the bombs which your country delivered (what was it express delivery using private cargo jets via England?) to the Israelis and are dropping on their heads??
People love to mention 14 resolutions passed against Iraq, while they forget and totally ignore the fact that same body passed over 65 resolutions condemning Israeli aggression througout the years and no body takes notice of that despite the fact that the U.S. vetoes the serious ones.
Israel hasn't done JACK to conform to any resolution or convention. They have blatantly murdered hundreds of civilians. Don't tell me you've already forgotten Qana?? or is it that Israeli blood is more important than Lebanese or Palestinian lives?
The casualty figures on both sides are a testament to the fact that Hezbollah has concentrated its attacks on soldiers while Israel has blatantly bombed civilian areas. Hezbollah only began rocketing Israeli cities once Israel started bombing Beirut and other cities. Also the two soldiers captures were captured inside Lebanese territory in the village of Ait Al Chab (Ayt Al Shab).
And if the U.S. and other western countries can supply huge quantities of arms and even nuclearize Israel then why all the ranting about Iran giving missiles to the Hezbollah??
The hypocrisy is sickening.
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Do you know the difference between the different Protocols. There is a difference between wars of liberation (internal conflicts) and international conflicts. There is a difference between professional armies and those that aren't professional. As a POW you must give name, rank, and serial number, otherwise you are not provided the protection of the Geneva convention. Have you read what the Geneva Convention provides for mercenaries under Protocol 1 and 2?
Why do so many professional armies not provide the distinctive clothing, rank, or serial numbers to allow their POWs Geneva Convention protection in an international conflict?
Why do so many professional armies not provide the distinctive clothing, rank, or serial numbers to allow their POWs Geneva Convention protection in an international conflict?
abramsteve
New Member
Whilst I would rather not become involved in this debate, I feel I need to say somthing.
We hear alot about the Israelies 'indiscriminatley' bombing Lebanon. Well going from my understanding of the word it seems to me that the only ones being indiscriminate is Hesbolla (may have spelt it wrong but yes, its out of ignorance) and its blind attacks on civillians.
All the technology in the world cannot prevent human error. And what bigger human stuff up is there than war? War means death, no pussy footing bout it. The fact is that war cant be stopped, but deaths can be kept at a minimum if there is a will. The fact that the Israelies are at least trying to avoid even more unnecessary deaths. Correct me If Im wrong of cource...
We hear alot about the Israelies 'indiscriminatley' bombing Lebanon. Well going from my understanding of the word it seems to me that the only ones being indiscriminate is Hesbolla (may have spelt it wrong but yes, its out of ignorance) and its blind attacks on civillians.
All the technology in the world cannot prevent human error. And what bigger human stuff up is there than war? War means death, no pussy footing bout it. The fact is that war cant be stopped, but deaths can be kept at a minimum if there is a will. The fact that the Israelies are at least trying to avoid even more unnecessary deaths. Correct me If Im wrong of cource...
abramsteve
New Member
Mate I mean war in general. I hope that one day there is no war, but hey, doesnt everyone. Yes individual conflicts can be stopped, but if you have a way to stop all war then by all means tell me and I'll happily accept being wrong!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #14
Ok,I mean war in general,too.U.N could be the key role player,when a country wants to attack another,U.N could bring the issue for discusing,not between the countries of Sec.Council but in the whole U.N,then by diplomacy a solution could be found in any case war should be prohibited,imagine what humanity could with the trilions(not bilions)of USD that we spend in weapons.
abramsteve
New Member
Sounds good, really does. Maybe Im to much of a cynic to see it happening...Gerasimos said:
but hey, whos to say it wont! The only problem I have with it though is that I may have to look for a new career!
Advance weapons (say.. smart bombs) are only as smart as the users. In theory they cause less casualty, because that eliminates the need of indescriminate bombing to eliminate one target. It is obvious that the bombs dropped on Lebanese civilians are not accidents... A smart bomb aimed at a bunker will not hit an appartement buidling, unless it was actually aimed at the latter target...
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Aussie Digger
Guest
Except for the Katayusha's I suspect you mean? They hardly "concentrate" on soldiers do they?Red aRRow said:
They were fired prior to Israel conducting airstrikes on Lebanon in the latest round of fighting.
The pro-Hezbollah hypocracy sickens me. Everything they do is just and everything Israel does is an "outrage". Except Israel is not hiding behind a civilian population and then pretending they are outraged by the indiscriminate attacks. Hezbollah in all truth CANNOT deny this.
As to the 2 soldiers story, well each story has a different version and their are only 2 parties that know the truth of the matter, Hezbollah and Israel and both have contrary views.
Kind of sums up the whole war doesn't it?
Stryker001
Banned Member
Israel has a small population as such their military doctrine is sound. Protection of your own personnel comes first. As stated by a representative of the Lebanese Government stated on ABC Australian they have sided with Hizbollah as such they are in my opinion a formal Government as such they have no rights to make or set conditions for any ceasefire.
If the two captured Israeli personnel are alive put them on TV so the IDF can see they are alive, a sign of goodwill and the start to negotiations.
If any agreement does not contain the disarming of Hizbollah as ordered by the UN resolution, then one must question the validity of the UN in the current matters. If the UN can’t make their own resolutions valid then why bother to make them. The future of the UN is at stake in this current matter, not only have the UN allowed what the world thought was a state within a state to occur, now a terrorist coalition between the Lebanese Government and Hizbollah according to the representative for the Lebanese Government in a interview with Tony Jones on Australian ABC. I would think that the Lebanese Government would want to clarify their position on this matter prior to seeking international approval to deploy the LAF.
When Hizbollah conducted terrorism on the USMC and CIA during a peacekeeping mission in 1983 was this an ethical engagement. Any civilian death that has occurred and will occur in the future in the AO Lebanon is the fault of the dysfunctional Lebanese Government and their associates in crime Hizbollah.
The fact is the psychological operations the terrorist have conduct on citizens of the worlds democracies by using civilians and murdering and torture of coalitions personnel no longer works as the psychological subjugate has be broken. The psychological key has been removed as such the terrorist doctrine will fail.
All the innocents would not be subjected to war if the Lebanese Government would allow a multi-national stabilisation force to be deployed to protect their citizens from the international terrorist organisation Hizbollah.
What is the point to all the talk, it looks like the time of talking and [FONT="]negotiation may be over as the current deadlock has acheived very little. Those nations who tried to create a ceasefire have been treated with contempt by the Lebanese Government and Hizbollah coalition.[/FONT]
If the two captured Israeli personnel are alive put them on TV so the IDF can see they are alive, a sign of goodwill and the start to negotiations.
If any agreement does not contain the disarming of Hizbollah as ordered by the UN resolution, then one must question the validity of the UN in the current matters. If the UN can’t make their own resolutions valid then why bother to make them. The future of the UN is at stake in this current matter, not only have the UN allowed what the world thought was a state within a state to occur, now a terrorist coalition between the Lebanese Government and Hizbollah according to the representative for the Lebanese Government in a interview with Tony Jones on Australian ABC. I would think that the Lebanese Government would want to clarify their position on this matter prior to seeking international approval to deploy the LAF.
When Hizbollah conducted terrorism on the USMC and CIA during a peacekeeping mission in 1983 was this an ethical engagement. Any civilian death that has occurred and will occur in the future in the AO Lebanon is the fault of the dysfunctional Lebanese Government and their associates in crime Hizbollah.
The fact is the psychological operations the terrorist have conduct on citizens of the worlds democracies by using civilians and murdering and torture of coalitions personnel no longer works as the psychological subjugate has be broken. The psychological key has been removed as such the terrorist doctrine will fail.
All the innocents would not be subjected to war if the Lebanese Government would allow a multi-national stabilisation force to be deployed to protect their citizens from the international terrorist organisation Hizbollah.
What is the point to all the talk, it looks like the time of talking and [FONT="]negotiation may be over as the current deadlock has acheived very little. Those nations who tried to create a ceasefire have been treated with contempt by the Lebanese Government and Hizbollah coalition.[/FONT]
What about the private contractors hired by the American and British governments spraying bullets on people in Iraq?? Why aren't they in uniform??Sea Toby said:
Why hasn't the U.S. prosecuted them under the Geneva convention.
U.S. government deploys these mercenaries herself and then you go on about rank, serial number and Geneva convention.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Having a different set of rules for others while a different ones for yourself is unfair and stupid.
Hezbollah usually deploys with full gear and uniform. Also Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's parliament due to the democratic elections which the U.S. was so happy to back up. It's quite hypocritic that the west harps about democracy but then starts organizing 'orange revolutions' and other assorted public thughishry to throw the elected representatives of the people out of office.
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Hezbollah and Israel might be resorting to similar tactics however looking at casualty figures it is very evident who is targeting civilians.Aussie Digger said:
Yes, it is Hezbollah's fault also that they are in a guerilla war in which they hide in civilian areas. But lets not have memories which just go back couple of weeks. The reason Hezbollah or Hamas was born is because of the illegal actions of Israel and western imperialist powers. Israel has occupied territory which belongs to other countries and also continuously usurps Palestinian lands by building new settlements every day, diverting water from Palestinian farmland, building huge walls which virtually imprison a population etc. This leads to resentment and people retaliating against such injustices.
As long as Israel employs imperialistic tactics of occupation and usurption, it better be ready to pay the price.
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