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NZDF General discussion thread

This is a discussion on NZDF General discussion thread within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Mr Brown How about leasing one of the Aussies older ANZACs? Would help us by gaining an ...


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Old April 26th, 2007   #61
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How about leasing one of the Aussies older ANZACs? Would help us by gaining an extra frigate at small cost, and as Oz navy is worried about been able to crew new AAW destroyers, would provide extra crew for them.

Though as NZ is having problems crewing its current fleet, may not be all that useful.

Maybe NZ should increase its number of trained army reserves, both for combat and support roles. They already provide round-out for regular force units, but should be increased to provide a number of fully reserve units, say 2-3 full infantry battalions and 1 mech cav squadron, plus a 2-3 each artillery batterys, and 2-3 airdefence troops. NZ would have to purchase extra equipment for them, but would have a well trained force, that would not have to be paid fulltime, or provided with barracks, food etc, fulltime.
I think NZ should just abandon its army all together LOL. By the time any opposing force landed on NZ it would be all over already. It should instead convert the army personnels into navy and airforce.
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Old April 26th, 2007   #62
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Despite the fact that the army is the only one which has actually something to do.
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Old April 26th, 2007   #63
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I think NZ should just abandon its army all together LOL. By the time any opposing force landed on NZ it would be all over already. It should instead convert the army personnels into navy and airforce.
LOL pretty well sums up this suggestion.

The NZ army is actively deployed on operations. If anything it needs to be increased in size and better equipped, along the lines many have suggested in earlier posts.

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Old April 27th, 2007   #64
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I agree that a capable navy, and combat capable airforce are essential for keeping any potential threat away from NZs shores. However, in order to be a regional power in the Pacific and maintain international commitments we still need a well equipped and manned army. A frigate or a fighter may project force, but they cannot hold ground, ie Tonga's international airport, nor can they provide visible security patrols such as in Tonga, Dili or Bamiyan.

A well rounded armed forces needs all three services. NZs main problem is small equipment levels, problems maintaining personnel, and a lack of political will to fund these.

If NZ ever returns to operating fighters, or even a combat capable trainer such as the T-50, we would have difficulty using them in the Pacific region, even if we also acquired tankers. A forward operating base would be needed. Maybe establish a barebones base in Nuie, similar to some RAAF bases up the Top End. A basic security and maintainance force normally, but able to be brought up to opertional standard at short notice. Apart from pure military uses, would be useful for assisting in disaster relief in the Pacific, or even for occassional P-3 deployments.

NZ does have the money, just not the will. If southern SI and sea around Stewart Island become an oil production area may need to improve airforce and navy, just to keep the Bushes hands off
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Old April 27th, 2007   #65
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Some sort of a combat air arm is the first requirement for NZ on its road to becoming a regional power. Just enogh airframes to keep a squadron up and running would be more than sufficient, say 24 + 6 for training and intergration, so 30.

You wouldn't need 5th or 4.5 gen platforms either. The cost in buying the F35, SH or any of the eurocanards could not be justified at all. And new rather than second hand platforms would be allways be prefered due to airframe deteriation and increasing maintinance time and costs, however this could be a prroblem when talking about 4th gen platforms, as most of them will be out of production soon.

For a "cheap as chaps" option that would fill allmost all of your needs, you could allways go with the BAE Hawk 200. Brand spanking new, comonality with 13 other airforces and ubundant spare parts. APG66H multimode radar thats an evolved version of the F16's. Weapons such as the AIM 9 (maybe if you wanna pay for it the X), Maverick and bumb iron. Its quite capable of having the AMRAAM intergrated, not to mention penguin and other small ASM's, allthough you'd be struggling to intergrate harpoon, and i dont see why JDAM is not a possibilty. In flight refueling (handy if you desided to buy a tanker) and quite nimble. Subsonic and a bit short on range though, however its pretty good bang for your buck. Have a look at the bottom of this post.

A squadron of desent fighters will elevate NZ's regional standing by itself. But ability to project power throughout oceania will truely make you boys a regional power. You've got 2 ANZAC class frigate right??? thats fine considering the state of the region. What you really need is the ability to deploy and support a battalion somewhere in the region. You've pretty much got enough formations to achieve long deployments through rotation, but what you really need the logistical assets. A small LPD perhaps.
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Old April 27th, 2007   #66
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Tactical fighters even of a souped up trainer will not elevate NZ's hard power in the South Pacific region. Because quite simply how will they deploy them into the region and what threat would require the combat power of fast moving tactical air support? Maybe it might impress a few locals without access to an atlas but even then the soft power benefit would be minimal.

24-30 NZ tactical fighters is typical Air Power Australia “outer edge of the crystal ball” strategic thinking and typically doesn’t take into account the cost, especially the Total Lifecycle Cost, of such an acquisition which makes it prohibitive. Is there an Air Power New Zealand? Maybe they could set up a branch, or even better migrate…

The NZDF’s current force structure plans (Project Protector) will make them pre-eminent outside of Australia within the South Pacific region. The ability to move and land a reinforced company force with 14 NZLAVs is the regional equivalent of a panzer division.

However some more aggressive deployable air support would be good and if they go down an earlier Seasprite replacement path acquiring something with a mix of attack helicopter and maritime helicopter capabilities would be ideal. Something like Future Lynx with its M299 smart launchers for Hellfire missiles would give them a huge boost in deployable regional combat power.

Now the flipside to all this is how much hard power NZ wants to contribute to wider regional and global alliances and coalitions. The thing about such efforts is you don’t have to provide a completely balanced combat force slice 1/6 to 1/3 of your total force. If you don’t have NBC decontainmation assets then the Czechs might have them, etc. So does NZ need tactical fighters for coaltions? Nope.

Stay the course Kiwi brothers, maybe enhance what you’ve got: some more armour and sealift and some multi-purpose combat helicopters, but stay the course.

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Old April 27th, 2007   #67
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Tactical fighters even of a souped up trainer will not elevate NZ's hard power in the South Pacific region. Because quite simply how will they deploy them into the region and what threat would require the combat power of fast moving tactical air support? Maybe it might impress a few locals without access to an atlas but even then the soft power benefit would be minimal.

24-30 NZ tactical fighters is typical Air Power Australia “outer edge of the crystal ball” strategic thinking and typically doesn’t take into account the cost, especially the Total Lifecycle Cost, of such an acquisition which makes it prohibitive. Is there an Air Power New Zealand? Maybe they could set up a branch, or even better migrate…

Ahhh, we've got an anti-APA crusader huh? here to clense the world of all heathens hey AGRA? Funny how a thread on NZ's deficencies in capability somehow has something to do with APA. If you want, we can start a thread on APA, and you can whine all you want and tell the world how APA are such bad people and say such silly things, i'm sure someone will be interested, but i'm afraid if you plan to follow me arround preaching then i wont be.

So back to the point.

For one thing they have NO maritime strike capability at the moment, apart from the P3's which is pitifull. A squadron sized marritime strike capability would give the kiwi's a lot more ability to defend their waters, and acts as alot of deturrent against larger players who might have interests in the area.

If the cost of a squadron sized purchase is prohibative then how has the RNZAF operated a combat air arm sinse WW2???

Also all that knowlage, experiance and expertise that the RNZAF had accumulated over the last 60yrs was lost in a single stroke. All its capable personell that were part of the air combat arm are now over here or in the UK. That sort of thing cant just be bought back when the need arises like new platforms.

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The NZDF’s current force structure plans (Project Protector) will make them pre-eminent outside of Australia within the South Pacific region. The ability to move and land a reinforced company force with 14 NZLAVs is the regional equivalent of a panzer division.
A battalion sized deployment is whats really needed. i cant see what the impact of 3 platoons of infantry and a squadron of NZLAV's would have on a nation the size of Fiji or Vanatu. there is simply not enough boots on the ground to provide security to even a limited area, let alone enforce peace in any of the major oceanic nations.

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However some more aggressive deployable air support would be good and if they go down an earlier Seasprite replacement path acquiring something with a mix of attack helicopter and maritime helicopter capabilities would be ideal. Something like Future Lynx with its M299 smart launchers for Hellfire missiles would give them a huge boost in deployable regional combat power.
I agree with you as far as deployable air power is concerned, it would give a deployed task force significant fire support and is much more acurate and flexable then deploying artillary, especially when working in built up areas.

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Now the flipside to all this is how much hard power NZ wants to contribute to wider regional and global alliances and coalitions. The thing about such efforts is you don’t have to provide a completely balanced combat force slice 1/6 to 1/3 of your total force. If you don’t have NBC decontainmation assets then the Czechs might have them, etc. So does NZ need tactical fighters for coaltions? Nope.
You probably dont need NZLAVs, Artie or Javelin either, since someone else will have similar capabilities, so i suppose they can save more money and just scrap those too eh?
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Old April 27th, 2007   #68
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Ahhh, we've got an anti-APA crusader huh? here to clense the world of all heathens hey AGRA? Funny how a thread on NZ's deficencies in capability somehow has something to do with APA. If you want, we can start a thread on APA, and you can whine all you want and tell the world how APA are such bad people and say such silly things, i'm sure someone will be interested, but i'm afraid if you plan to follow me arround preaching then i wont be.
Woah there boy. Check the post histories this was my first post only later did I discover your obvious pro-APA bias… However the obvious similarities between the strategic nonsense presented by APA for the ADF force structure and Ozzy Blizzard for the NZDF are worthy of comment.

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For one thing they have NO maritime strike capability at the moment, apart from the P3's which is pitifull. A squadron sized marritime strike capability would give the kiwi's a lot more ability to defend their waters, and acts as alot of deturrent against larger players who might have interests in the area.
Like Japanese 'scientific' whalers? Come on there is no potential maritime threat to NZ needing of some kind of ASM equipped tactical fighter force. The Seasprites and Orions with Mavericks/Mk82s can take out anyone with air defence up to MANPADS level. Last time I checked the Fiji Navy was not acquiring Kub systems for their patrol boats…

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If the cost of a squadron sized purchase is prohibative then how has the RNZAF operated a combat air arm sinse WW2???
Well the cost then wasn’t prohibitive and there was this little thing called the Cold War… I’m sure you remember it, frankly you appear to think its still going on.

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A battalion sized deployment is whats really needed. i cant see what the impact of 3 platoons of infantry and a squadron of NZLAV's would have on a nation the size of Fiji or Vanatu. there is simply not enough boots on the ground to provide security to even a limited area, let alone enforce peace in any of the major oceanic nations.
Sure they need a battalion for independent or coaltion leading opportunities. Which is why the NZ Govt has forward budgeted around NZ$400m to replace the HMNZ Endeavour. This is money for a much more capable ship or ships and should double (at least) their sealift capability. Of course they could spend this money on some kind of fast jet force but then they would be back where they were in 1995 – no deployable land force but great airshows…

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You probably dont need NZLAVs, Artie or Javelin either, since someone else will have similar capabilities, so i suppose they can save more money and just scrap those too eh?
Pure garbage. You need to deploy a minimal self-contained military force which is a sub-unit, company in infantry terms, flight/det in air terms. The NZLAV, Javelin are required to make up minimal Army sub-unit. The same if you were providing a C-130 det you want them to have EWSP and some ballistic protection. The arty is a legacy capability acquired in the 1980s as part of the Cold War force structure. Certainly when they come up for replacement the NZDF should look at some more lightweight and deployable fire support platforms like the new generation of 120mm mortars.
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Old April 27th, 2007   #69
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$400m to replace Endeavour, eh? I wonder how much Canada is looking to spend on its new generation replenishment vessels? Does anyone know? I like the requirement specs I have seen, normal fuel, JP, ammo, stores replenishment, plus helicopter workshop, medical facilities, command capability, with a secondary amphib role via LCVP.

Would almost need to by a couple of escort vessels though, as would almost be another capital ship for RNZN, along with Canterbury. I often wonder why NZ hasn't bought at least a couple of K130s or similar in order to provide some protection for Canterbury when (if?) she goes in harms way. Should at least provide her and OPVs with 57mm and mini-Typhoons.
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Old April 28th, 2007   #70
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The NZDF’s current force structure plans (Project Protector) will make them pre-eminent outside of Australia within the South Pacific region. The ability to move and land a reinforced company force with 14 NZLAVs is the regional equivalent of a panzer division.
Actually No - France is the next major power in the South Pacific, after Australia and has the ability to exceed Australia, with the deployment of additional assets by sea and air. Project Protector simply deals with force structure deficencies that defence have known about since the 1970's in the case of the OPV's and IPV's and the mid 1980's for the MRV. As evidence of that you should look to the conversion of HMNZS Taranaki to a resource protection vessel, the substandard capability of the previous lake class patrol vessels and the deployment of HMNZS Monawai to Fiji with addtional forces in 1987.

Yes NZ maybe able to move a reinforced company, but landing it is another issue. In a Fiji type situation the LCM's may have to deal with Mortars, HMG fire. Currently NZ has no effective means of counter fire, except in the form of two frigates in need of a refits.

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Like Japanese 'scientific' whalers? Come on there is no potential maritime threat to NZ needing of some kind of ASM equipped tactical fighter force. The Seasprites and Orions with Mavericks/Mk82s can take out anyone with air defence up to MANPADS level. Last time I checked the Fiji Navy was not acquiring Kub systems for their patrol boats…
Which completely ignores the whole issue of short notice military threats to New Zealand. Just because there are no threats now, does not mean there won't be even in the near future. People seem to forget that NZ is only 3 weeks sailing from most South East Asian Ports. If things were to get nasty an Orion or Sea Sprite may have to come within SAM range with a Maverick. Even using Harpoon may not necessarily protect a P-3 crew. Also as a bit of history I can recall during the Rainbow Warrior crisis that there was some concern over the location of the French forces, that may have required a response.

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Well the cost then wasn’t prohibitive and there was this little thing called the Cold War… I’m sure you remember it, frankly you appear to think its still going on.
New Zealand had and developed an Air Combat Force long before the Cold War or even WWII. No one has yet explained how a government running some of the largest surpluses in NZ history can say the cost can be prohibitive. Nor can anyone explain why in 1989,effectively after the end of the cold war the then Labour government purchased 17 MB339 only to change their mind less than 10 year later, despite the Quigley report. Its interesting that in the Post Cold War conflicts going on that Fast Jets are providing signifcant firepower in support of ground forces, for fewer losses than lower flying Helicopters.

Also I don't think we should forget the lessons of Crete, where NZ forces land forces were operating with first limited, and then no air cover. Relying on allies, sometimes is not a good thing (no offence meant).

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Which is why the NZ Govt has forward budgeted around NZ$400m to replace the HMNZ Endeavour. This is money for a much more capable ship or ships and should double (at least) their sealift capability. Of course they could spend this money on some kind of fast jet force but then they would be back where they were in 1995 – no deployable land force but great airshows…
Could you please quote where there is 400million budgeted for a tanker. The last time I read anything was that the government was examining the need for a tanker at all. The amount of 400million, for 1 tanker seems absurb given that the bugdet for the MRV was 250million NZ and the whole project protector bugdet was $NZ500million for 7 vessels built to civilian standards.
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Old April 28th, 2007   #71
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What is this discussion about?

I have to wonder, what is this discussion about? Is it about ways to improve the NZDF or ways to make NZ a regional power (whatever that is...)?

If the discussion is really about NZ becoming a regional power, I would have to assume that means the ability to engage in power projection. If one were to assume NZ's region is Oceania/the South Pacific, then NZ is already a regional power. Given the potential opposing local forces, only Australia has a stronger projection capability. I'm not including Malaysia, Singapore or Indonesia in the region because they are more properly ASEAN, not South Pacific.

If, instead the idea is to find ways to improve upon the NZDF, I would think areas to concentrate on first would be improvement of existing capabilities (Anzac & P-3K upgrades come to mind) replacement of equipment reaching end-of-service-life, and then acquisition of dual or multi-use equipment and capabilities. After that, would be addition (or reactivation) of capabilities based upon their potential use.

To that end, while having the RNZAF have an air combat component again would IMV be very good, it should only be done after other, more critical areas have been seen to. Points to consider about having an air combat arm.
  1. Ongoing cost of operations would be ~$200 mil/year (not including initial startup costs)
  2. Only three countries currently could bomb NZ, these are Australia, France or the US. This list isn't likely to change any time soon either.
  3. In terms of maritime strike, it more efficient to arm the sensing platforms (P-3Ks) to carry out a strike, instead of requiring a sensing platform relay that to another aircraft to carry out the strike.
  4. Without AAR (not a current RNZAF capability) a light fighter force is unable to deploy away from NZ.

Now, if NZ could make more efficient use of current aircraft assets (like the MB-339CBs) while keeping costs reasonable, I think that would be a good thing. Otherwise, I'd just as soon see money spent on capabilities NZ is already using and/or struggling to fufil.

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Old April 28th, 2007   #72
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Woah there boy. Check the post histories this was my first post only later did I discover your obvious pro-APA bias… However the obvious similarities between the strategic nonsense presented by APA for the ADF force structure and Ozzy Blizzard for the NZDF are worthy of comment.
Umm, looking at the posts you have put up so far your anti-APA bias is more than clear, i refer to your last (ridicules) post in the F18F for Aus thread. I forgot that my name is really Dr Carlo Kopp.


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Like Japanese 'scientific' whalers? Come on there is no potential maritime threat to NZ needing of some kind of ASM equipped tactical fighter force. The Seasprites and Orions with Mavericks/Mk82s can take out anyone with air defence up to MANPADS level. Last time I checked the Fiji Navy was not acquiring Kub systems for their patrol boats…
Currently the NZDF has virtually no deturrent against any major players in the region. A squadron sized combat air arm that is capable of maritime strike would give the kiwi's that deturrent. You do remember the rainbow warrier incident dont you? The french haven't been too respectfull of New Zealand's soverignty have they? But hey who cares right? Its somehow in line with "APA strategic thinking" so its must be wrong, even though the RNZAF was structured around it for over 60 yrs.

Also just maintaing the combat air arm retains the exellent personell and experiance that have been discarded. that sort of thing cant just be bought when there is a crisis.

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Well the cost then wasn’t prohibitive and there was this little thing called the Cold War… I’m sure you remember it, frankly you appear to think its still going on.
As Lucanz said above the NZ govt is running lconcurrent larg surpluss. And the cost is prhibitive because its not the cold war any more???? Why is that pray tell? have the life costs of operating combat aircraft risen in real terms (i.e. accounting for inflation) since the end of the cold war enough to make them prohibative??? To be honnest i cant really understand your reasoning. perhaps is has more to do with your bias against "heathans" than a clear strategic vision.

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Sure they need a battalion for independent or coaltion leading opportunities. Which is why the NZ Govt has forward budgeted around NZ$400m to replace the HMNZ Endeavour. This is money for a much more capable ship or ships and should double (at least) their sealift capability. Of course they could spend this money on some kind of fast jet force but then they would be back where they were in 1995 – no deployable land force but great airshows…
And a desent maritime strike capability. Which is kind of important for an island nation dont you think????

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Pure garbage. You need to deploy a minimal self-contained military force which is a sub-unit, company in infantry terms, flight/det in air terms. The NZLAV, Javelin are required to make up minimal Army sub-unit. The same if you were providing a C-130 det you want them to have EWSP and some ballistic protection. The arty is a legacy capability acquired in the 1980s as part of the Cold War force structure. Certainly when they come up for replacement the NZDF should look at some more lightweight and deployable fire support platforms like the new generation of 120mm mortars.
However fast jets with presision strike capability can not be deployed in forward area's to provide air cover to deployed untis though, or wouldn't be usefull???? An indipendantly deployed battalion in a nation like Fiji, which has fast jet capable airfields, fixed wing air cover would not be very capable fire support????

The fact of the matter is that the NZDF is an unballanced force at the moment without a combat air wing, and is not fully capable of indipendant action in peace inforcement on a desent level or in defence of their waters against anything other than OPV's.
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Old April 28th, 2007   #73
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Currently the NZDF has virtually no deturrent against any major players in the region. A squadron sized combat air arm that is capable of maritime strike would give the kiwi's that deturrent. You do remember the rainbow warrier incident dont you? The french haven't been too respectfull of New Zealand's soverignty have they? But hey who cares right? Its somehow in line with "APA strategic thinking" so its must be wrong, even though the RNZAF was structured around it for over 60 yrs.

Also just maintaing the combat air arm retains the exellent personell and experiance that have been discarded. that sort of thing cant just be bought when there is a crisis.
What region? The SEA or the Pacific?

The French haven't launched air strikes on NZ I'm pretty sure and neither has anyone else.

Thinking that anyone would is ridiculous. ANYONE intending to do so would have to also threaten US and most likely the Americans TOO. Of course with American combat power being on the decline as it is THEY might not be able to assist us or NZ against this mythical foreign power so hell bent on annihilating NZ...


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As Lucanz said above the NZ govt is running lconcurrent larg surpluss. And the cost is prhibitive because its not the cold war any more???? Why is that pray tell? have the life costs of operating combat aircraft risen in real terms (i.e. accounting for inflation) since the end of the cold war enough to make them prohibative??? To be honnest i cant really understand your reasoning. perhaps is has more to do with your bias against "heathans" than a clear strategic vision.
The cost is prohibitive to the persons who matter. The politicians on BOTH sides of NZ politics.

Whether NZ can finanically afford it is irrelevant, as is the topic of this thread, to be perfectly honest. NZ already IS a power within it's region... Maybe it should read what COULD NZ do to become THE power within it's region...



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And a desent maritime strike capability. Which is kind of important for an island nation dont you think????
If there's something to strike I suppose I'd agree with you. A Harpoon or SLAM-ER equipped P-3K would make for a pretty reasonable maritime strike capacity wouldn't you think???

Afterall a H-6 Badger offers a useful strike capability for others apparently...



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However fast jets with presision strike capability can not be deployed in forward area's to provide air cover to deployed untis though, or wouldn't be usefull???? An indipendantly deployed battalion in a nation like Fiji, which has fast jet capable airfields, fixed wing air cover would not be very capable fire support????
It probably would. It'd also be akin to cracking a walnut with a sledgehammer too. How often do Countries deploy ENTIRELY unnecessary combat capabilities to an operation?

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The fact of the matter is that the NZDF is an unballanced force at the moment without a combat air wing, and is not fully capable of indipendant action in peace inforcement on a desent level or in defence of their waters against anything other than OPV's.
And what threat is there within their own waters? What threat is there likely to be in 20 years, seeing as though it's crystal ball time? I'm horizon challenged I know, but I can't see a threat to NZ requiring anything more than a basic ability to strike in maritime waters when so desired. They have that now with P-3K and their Seasprites.

Can you name a peace enforcement operation where ANY country has ever operated independently?
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Old April 28th, 2007   #74
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Umm, looking at the posts you have put up so far your anti-APA bias is more than clear, i refer to your last (ridicules) post in the F18F for Aus thread. I forgot that my name is really Dr Carlo Kopp.
Keep up the charade dear fellow and making sure there are typos in your posts but the post back history of "Ozzy Blizzard' is all pure Koppspeak. You've been Kopped mate, now I could ask the Moderators for your IP and do a bit of matching but they would probably think that’s an invasion of your privacy.... As I said in my original outing, I have nothing against aliases, just don’t use them to provide a fake endorsement of you own work, sickening stuff.

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Currently the NZDF has virtually no deturrent against any major players in the region. A squadron sized combat air arm that is capable of maritime strike would give the kiwi's that deturrent. You do remember the rainbow warrier incident dont you? The french haven't been too respectfull of New Zealand's soverignty have they? But hey who cares right? Its somehow in line with "APA strategic thinking" so its must be wrong, even though the RNZAF was structured around it for over 60 yrs.
Rainbow Warrior was sunk by a naval force or an air attack or something tactical fighters could deter? Is that what you are implying? The NZ needs fighters to maintain peaceful relations with the French in the region?

Oh yes for 60 years after WW2 NZ maintained an air combat force. I guess the memory of the Japanese attacks lives long. But that strategic situation is gone and forever. There is no strategic emptiness between NZ and SE Australia from potential expansionist powers as there was in 1941/42. Singapore now actually is a fortress, etc. So where are this 'major players' and their threat going to emerge from?

It is this typical 'my point of view' in face of all other logic and a fanciful strategic scenario with bad data and analysis to support it that pervades Air Power Australia and leads to crusades to sweep it from the holy land of a responsible and thoughtful defence policy making. Intellectual cults are sickening and to be decalred an anti-cult crusader is a badge of honour.

But don’t worry OB/CK just draw up a map showing how Chinese Tu-22s operating out of Naru can threaten Peter Jackson’s studios in Wellington and I’m sure you can convince the NZDF to acquire some F-22s.
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Old April 28th, 2007   #75
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Here is a map showing an arc 1,000NM around New Zealand:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gcmap?RAN...NGE-COLOR=navy

Where's the threat?
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