This is a discussion on NZDF General discussion thread within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by t68
Well if your interested I believe the Spanish have 20 Eurofighter they want to get rid ...
Well if your interested I believe the Spanish have 20 Eurofighter they want to get rid off, not exactly the type of aircraft the NZDF need, with their economy of late you might pick them up dirt cheap......
Beggars can't be choosers and it'd give us an Air Combat Force again. As if we'd be so lucky? An opinion piece on govt cost cutting and NZDF civilianisation. Cost-cutter's cleaver leaves deep wounds
Beggars can't be choosers and it'd give us an Air Combat Force again. As if we'd be so lucky? An opinion piece on govt cost cutting and NZDF civilianisation. Cost-cutter's cleaver leaves deep wounds
A very sad state of affairs for the NZDF, but it is noted that the Philippines will be reconstructing its Airforce with 12 F/A 50 since retiring the F5 in 2005, the Philippines is pretty well cash strapped at the moment and are a lot closer to a more dominate influences in their area of responsibility, in realty 12 aircraft is not going to change the status quo but does show a commitment they are willing to stand up when it counts. The problems are not insurmountable but will need clear and defined leadership which will stand up for commonsense.
A very sad state of affairs for the NZDF, but it is noted that the Philippines will be reconstructing its Airforce with 12 F/A 50 since retiring the F5 in 2005, the Philippines is pretty well cash strapped at the moment and are a lot closer to a more dominate influences in their area of responsibility, in realty 12 aircraft is not going to change the status quo but does show a commitment they are willing to stand up when it counts. The problems are not insurmountable but will need clear and defined leadership which will stand up for commonsense.
Yes the KAI TA50 at US25 Million (2011 Indonesian order - Indonesia Orders 16 T-50s From Korea) and FA50 at US 30 Million (2012 - Seoul places $600m order for 20 FA-50s) isn't to far out of context for the NZG to procure. Say 24 FA50 and 12 TA50. It would be less than US$1 billion and the aircraft are similar to F16 but more modern and the the commonality of airframe would be a money saver. Just need to convince the idiot pollies. Me thinks it would be cheaper and viable buy than the 18 F16IQ offered to Iraq in 2010 for US$4.2 billion.
I was have a nose on Australian Defence Magazines website today and it had a headline stating that NZDF had cancelled the Steyr tender. So I went to have a look but can't get at it because it's subscribers only. A Google search only turned up a Janes Defence Weekly story and tweet. The tweet states "A tender to provide 3,000 upgraded Steyr AUG 5.56mm assault rifles to New Zealand has been cancelled" and can't get at story because don't subscribe. Anybody able to verify this?
I have since been informed that this is correct. The NZDF Youtube channel has placed a video up of the C9 Minimi 5.56mm LSW weapon replacement. NZ Army's new Light Support Weapon - YouTube the blurb with video states:
Quote:
Published on 4 Feb 2013
The Army's new Light Support Weapon, the FN Herstal 7.62mm Minimi TR is now being introduced into service. It replaces the 5.56mm LSW C9.The weapons will be introduced into Service in two versions, to be known as Machine Gun 7.62mm, MINIMI, LSW, LONG RAIL (LR) and Machine Gun 7.62mm, MINIMI, LSW.
So one wonders if NZDF are thinking of replacing the 5.56mm Steyr with a 7.62mm weapon and if so when and what type?
So one wonders if NZDF are thinking of replacing the 5.56mm Steyr with a 7.62mm weapon and if so when and what type?
I believe you have a couple of choices, but if it were to happen most likely would be back to the future with the FN FAL. I wonder if Lithgow still has the tooling for L1A1!!!!
There’s also the FN SCAR in 7.62x51 and comes in barrel lengths of 6.5in to 20in and can also be fitted with a grenade launcher. Australia bought a number of HK 417 to be used in Afghanistan in the marksman role, these also come in a number of different barrel lengths to suit.
It’s interesting if NZ does move away from the 5.56 round and standardize on 7.62 I believe we should never have moved from 7.62 in both NZ and Aus, it did not hurt us logistically wise in Vietnam and cannot see why it would be any different now. But it could pose problems on combined ops between NZ/Aus as the logistic tail for NZ is smaller than the tail Australia had in Vietnam. I have used both weapons in my time in the RACT when moving from vehicle to vehicle I preferred the F88 but preferred the L1A1 on the range.
NZDF has adopted a 7.62 designated marksman rifle for use at patrol level for observing and engaging target at ranges beyong the 5.56 steyr New NZ Army Marksman Rifle - YouTube
Aus, the UK, germany and france have adopted similar rifles, also at squad level.
The US uses modified M14 rifles (M14 EBR). Aus, Fr, UK and US have all adopted the 7.62 version of the Minimi/C9 (the american one is called Mk 48 mod 0 and is slightly different. This is in response to longer engagement ranges in A'stan, and poor 5.56 stopping power and reach.
I think for the forseable future, NZDF and our allies will stick with the 5.56 as the standard individual rifle calibre. We wont change until everyone else changes. Given the cost of this, i don't think it will happen for a while. I have read (possibly on this website) that most of NZDF's 13 000 steyers are still in good order.
Australia is adopting an improved steyr, the EF88. I like the side opening grenade launcher, for longer 40mm grenades. Would be good to see nz have some of these.
NZDF has adopted a 7.62 designated marksman rifle for use at patrol level for observing and engaging target at ranges beyong the 5.56 steyr New NZ Army Marksman Rifle - YouTube
Aus, the UK, germany and france have adopted similar rifles, also at squad level.
The US uses modified M14 rifles (M14 EBR). Aus, Fr, UK and US have all adopted the 7.62 version of the Minimi/C9 (the american one is called Mk 48 mod 0 and is slightly different. This is in response to longer engagement ranges in A'stan, and poor 5.56 stopping power and reach.
I think for the forseable future, NZDF and our allies will stick with the 5.56 as the standard individual rifle calibre. We wont change until everyone else changes. Given the cost of this, i don't think it will happen for a while. I have read (possibly on this website) that most of NZDF's 13 000 steyers are still in good order.
Australia is adopting an improved steyr, the EF88. I like the side opening grenade launcher, for longer 40mm grenades. Would be good to see nz have some of these.
That video was put up on 17 Oct 2011. For last three or so years Defence Science had been running an evaluation of all Defence small arms and IIRC was stalled because it had exceeded budget back in 2011 or last year and need extra funding to finishing. Maybe that has happened because the funding was directed by Cabinet. Looking at the sheep entrails and tea leaves, NZDF never said why it widrew the tender citing commercial sensitivities. If it was a funding issue it probably would have said the tender may have been rolled over to a following budget cycle. There is a debate amongst NATO allies about 5.56mm Vs 7.62mm and this debate appears to have been dragging on for a while. It actually doesn't matter if NZDF decided to go to 7.62 x 51mm with regard to allies and friends because the LSW uses same round, just as long as we have enough rifles and get good one. As much as I like the L1A1 SLR, I think it would be a mistake going back to that particular rifle, my preference being for a full auto function as the original FN had. I note that there is now a semi auto 7.62 x 51mm semi auto bullpup being marketed by an US company that takes the metric NATO 7.62mm mags, but no full auto facility.
That video was put up on 17 Oct 2011. For last three or so years Defence Science had been running an evaluation of all Defence small arms and IIRC was stalled because it had exceeded budget back in 2011 or last year and need extra funding to finishing. Maybe that has happened because the funding was directed by Cabinet. Looking at the sheep entrails and tea leaves, NZDF never said why it widrew the tender citing commercial sensitivities. If it was a funding issue it probably would have said the tender may have been rolled over to a following budget cycle. There is a debate amongst NATO allies about 5.56mm Vs 7.62mm and this debate appears to have been dragging on for a while. It actually doesn't matter if NZDF decided to go to 7.62 x 51mm with regard to allies and friends because the LSW uses same round, just as long as we have enough rifles and get good one. As much as I like the L1A1 SLR, I think it would be a mistake going back to that particular rifle, my preference being for a full auto function as the original FN had. I note that there is now a semi auto 7.62 x 51mm semi auto bullpup being marketed by an US company that takes the metric NATO 7.62mm mags, but no full auto facility.
Out of curiousity, which US bullpup are you talking about? I am curious because most of the US 7.62 x 51 mm bullpups of which I am aware of are essentially M1A or M14 rifles, rebuilt into a bullpup form.
-Cheers
________________
"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
Out of curiousity, which US bullpup are you talking about? I am curious because most of the US 7.62 x 51 mm bullpups of which I am aware of are essentially M1A or M14 rifles, rebuilt into a bullpup form.
-Cheers
The one I came across is an ambidextrous one being marketed to US police forces. Rifle Forward-Ejecting Bullpup (RFB) from KEL-TEC CNC INDUSTRIES INC. The shorter one might be good for naval boarding parties as L1A1 SLR was a bit bulky is some quarters. Mind you had its good points too.
The one I came across is an ambidextrous one being marketed to US police forces. Rifle Forward-Ejecting Bullpup (RFB) from KEL-TEC CNC INDUSTRIES INC. The shorter one might be good for naval boarding parties as L1A1 SLR was a bit bulky is some quarters. Mind you had its good points too.
That is the one I was afraid you were talking about. While I have not fired this particular model (or any Kel-Tec gun for that matter) the reputation of the manufacturer is well... Poor would probably be the best/nicest way to put it.
As an example, there are a number of firearms manufacturers that produce very small, sub-compact pistols chambered in 0.380 ACP for the US market. By reputation at least, the Kel-Tec entry into this specific class of pistols for concealed carry wears out and requires replacement after firing ~200 rounds through the pistol.
With that sort of reputation in mind, I would have concerns about any defence force adopting the RFB for service.
-Cheers
________________
"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
I just posted the video in response to talk of adopting/'going back to' 7.62 rifles.
If i had to choose a 7.62 infantry rifle, I'd go for the HK417. L1A1's might be too long for the back of LAV's, plus they would need to be made accessory friendly.
But i think 5.56 will be with us for some time.
I'm not sure what 5.56 ammo the NZDF uses, but since 2010 the US army has used an improved round M855A1, which apparently has better performance.
I've love to see what could be done with a 7.62 Steyr. The upgrades to Lithgow in order to develop the F88SA2 and EF88 should be more than enough to produce this.
Even if just issued to the section marksmen I'd imagine it would be quite a handy weapon.
The Kiwi Prime Minister stated in tv tonight that if North Korea attacks South Korea and NZ would very likely join the US and Australia in defending South Korea. Key in China heeds NKorea threats - Story - Politics - 3 News The reasons he gave are that there is a long history of NZ supporting South Korea and if diplomatic efforts and interventions failed then it is possible that NZ would be at war with North Korea with us Kiwis standing alongside South Korea, US and Australia.
Therefore is this government going to dramatically increase funding to NZDF in order that NZDF will be able to fight a modern techonological war in Korea against an enemy who has the fourth largest army in the world with artillery, missiles, an air combat force some submarines and who knows what else. Methinks it is time for the NZG to put a few billion NZ$ where its mouth is. Maybewe might get an ACF out of. 28 JAS Gripen NGs would be real nice. US$40 million each and Saab state 50% cheaper to operate. They have a 40 year lifetime expectancy which would be what the RNZAF would fly them for.
The Kiwi Prime Minister stated in tv tonight that if North Korea attacks South Korea and NZ would very likely join the US and Australia in defending South Korea. Key in China heeds NKorea threats - Story - Politics - 3 News The reasons he gave are that there is a long history of NZ supporting South Korea and if diplomatic efforts and interventions failed then it is possible that NZ would be at war with North Korea with us Kiwis standing alongside South Korea, US and Australia.
Therefore is this government going to dramatically increase funding to NZDF in order that NZDF will be able to fight a modern techonological war in Korea against an enemy who has the fourth largest army in the world with artillery, missiles, an air combat force some submarines and who knows what else. Methinks it is time for the NZG to put a few billion NZ$ where its mouth is. Maybewe might get an ACF out of. 28 JAS Gripen NGs would be real nice. US$40 million each and Saab state 50% cheaper to operate. They have a 40 year lifetime expectancy which would be what the RNZAF would fly them for.
Yes it’s easy for politicians to risk raising your head above the parapet, but it’s not easy for them to stump up the money so you can do it with confidence. Aunty Helen must be thanking her lucky star she not the PM anymore and having to explain why she chose not to spend money on defence if she sent the defence force into a high intensity conflict.
Still would not hold your breath about an ACF, even if you did it would be in your best interest to go with 2 Squadrons worth of F35A by the time they become fully operational it would be sometime between 2025 and 2030.
Yes it’s easy for politicians to risk raising your head above the parapet, but it’s not easy for them to stump up the money so you can do it with confidence. Aunty Helen must be thanking her lucky star she not the PM anymore and having to explain why she chose not to spend money on defence if she sent the defence force into a high intensity conflict.
Still would not hold your breath about an ACF, even if you did it would be in your best interest to go with 2 Squadrons worth of F35A by the time they become fully operational it would be sometime between 2025 and 2030.
I was tongue in the cheek about the ACF and if it did ever happen the F35 would not be an appropriate acquisition for NZ. We might be able to afford the initial purchase but we wouldn't be able to afford the operational and sustainment costs. I also believe we couldn't politicaly justify such an expensive purchase to the electorate.
The reason I plumbed for the Gripen NG is that it has the ability of one gripen able to target for four other gripens, it is now NATO compatible and SAAB claim that it is 50% cheaper to operate and sustain than other similar aircraft by which I would presume to be F16, Typhoon, Rafale, F18E/F and F15E/K/SA/SG. The USAF F15E operational cost per flight hour is US$35,365.00 and ownership cost per flight hour is US$36,343.00. The F16D costs per flight hour are US$30,140.00 and US$30,357.00 respectively. These are USAF figures given to Time Magazine by the USAF. They are available on a spreadshet from http://timemilitary.files.wordpress....2008-2012.xlsx
