Go Back   Defense Technology & Military Forum > Global Defense & Military > Geo-strategic Issues
Forgot Password? Join Us! Its's free!

Defense News
Land, Air & Naval Forces






Military Photos
Latest Military Pictures

ExPB14_JAS-39_Gripen.jpg

ExPB14_Mirage2000.jpg

6_EXPB14_20140729_088_3_RSAF_F16s.jpg

5_EXPB14_20140729_143_3_RSAF_F-15SGs.jpg
Defense Reports
Aerospace & Defence







Recent Photos - DefenceTalk Military Gallery





The Future of Britain.

This is a discussion on The Future of Britain. within the Geo-strategic Issues forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by overlander As Jhom mentioned the new spanish governemt will have to cut in many matters before to ...


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 4.00 average.
Old December 3rd, 2011   #31
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 5,491
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander View Post
As Jhom mentioned the new spanish governemt will have to cut in many matters before to cut the military capability, reduction in civilian manpower and around 10
% servicemen are the only proposed cuts in defence budget but military capability will remain untoucched in the medium term.
You don't seem to understand that military capability will not, and can not, remain untouched unless more money is spent. If the bills aren't paid, deliveries of spares, fuel, etc. will stop. The suppliers (commercial firms, many of them foreign) won't, & in some cases can't, keep delivering goods they don't get paid for.

What happens to military capability when Eurofighter or Airbus or Boeing stops delivering spare parts? Or aviation or marine fuel suppliers stop delivering? Or new aircraft are put into storage at the manufacturers, instead of being handed over?

The Spanish MoD has a large & increasing debt to suppliers, because it's not been making payments. What do you think is going to happen about that?
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3rd, 2011   #32
Defense Professional / Analyst
Major
ASSAIL's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Darwin NT Australia
Posts: 974
Threads:
British Army in Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astute View Post
Yes the current defence cuts are reshaping the the UK armed forces but i dont think there is any reason to panic ( YET), Firstly the Uk is an Island so does it really need a big army for defence look at are location is there a threat of invasion or a conflict on are door step no we are surrounded by the sea and allies its different if you are located on the main land of Europe like Germany,France etc the threat is different a large army is seen as a must, but even they are cutting there armed forces ,
The future British army will be a very different looking force not the cold war relic it as been ,it needs to be rebalanced , firstly the cuting of regulars so the armies make up is about a balanced 70% regulars and the TA being at 30% will bring us inline with the current US,and other allies armies make up,
The British army will be better armed more deployable and able to fight more effectively in any future conflicts and if needed the army can grow again but at this time i really dont see the need , by 2014-15 the 10.000 troops will be all but home from afganistan and the redeployment home of the 20.000 troops from Germany will be starting,
The loss of some heavy armour isnt the end of the world many countries are cutting there heavy armour as well, i would say its had its day, it takes time to deploy heavy armour unless you are fighting close to home which isnt the case for the british army, and the fire power of attack helicopters, and infantry AT teams means its not the force on the battlefield it use to be, But the tanks we do have are one of the best in the world,and so are our Attack helicopters 67 Apaches


The Royal Navy is still one of the best Navys in the world, yes i agree the current number of ships is low for the deployments the navy is asked to do,but the capabilities of the navy is improving all the time by 2012 the first 3 new type 45s will be ready for deployments,the other 3 are flying through there first sea trials or fitting out ,the type 23s are going through a very good upgrade process which will greatly improve there capabilities. The uk is still spending big on defence the problem is we never get value for money, and there are gaps in capabilities which need to looked into and sorted.


But the force planned for the Royal navy in the future force 2020 concept will give the Royal Navy a real punch ( 6 Type 45s ,13 type 26s, 1 (may be 2) aircraft carriers with jsf, 7 Astute class Attack subs and of cause a new nuclear deterent planned ,(we will know in 2015) ,YES YES i know the carriers , is it 1 or 2 who knows but yes they will be well over budget i would say only a few at the top really knows all the rest is hear say im afraid i would say 1 deployed 1 at extended readiness. ( sell one to China really i dont think so )
I cant see the problem that the faa will not have the aircraft to deploy an airwing which i would say will be 6-12 ,inlarged to may be 24-30 if needed as the RAF and the FAA will be using the same model jsf f-35c so im sure the raf pilots will be multi trained ,so can build up a carriers air group if needed ,
But with a planned increase to the defence budget from 2015 onwards (Britain even now with the cuts is still one of the biggest defence budgets in the world) who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

The Raf is still a powerful force typhoon,tornado, f-35 jsf in the future,as well has unmanned aircraft,like reaper,predator etc new transport planes, new refueling aircraft starting to be delivered (Voyager) a heavy lift helicopter capability soon to be 60 chinooks, its not how many strike aircraft you have its the capabilities of the aircraft you have and how you use them,
Can one of the more knowledgeable posters please explain the rationale for keeping such a large British force in the european powerhouse economy?
When such large cuts to capability are made to the RN, the expenditure incurred in manning and maintaining this force is, to this antipodean, almost Monty Pythonesque.
The cold war has ended why, why, why
ASSAIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 3rd, 2011   #33
Senior Member
Brigadier General
StevoJH's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Posts: 1,642
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
Can one of the more knowledgeable posters please explain the rationale for keeping such a large British force in the european powerhouse economy?
When such large cuts to capability are made to the RN, the expenditure incurred in manning and maintaining this force is, to this antipodean, almost Monty Pythonesque.
The cold war has ended why, why, why
Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.
StevoJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2011   #34
Defense Professional / Analyst
Major
ASSAIL's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Darwin NT Australia
Posts: 974
Threads:
Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by StevoJH View Post
Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.
I am not an expert on the BA hence my question, however, referring to wiki with all its limitations, i find the following:
The 2009 review will cut total numbers in the army to 95,000 a reduction of only 7,000 by 2013.
The current strength of the deployed British Army force in Germany is 40,000 troops and 20,000 civies. This is to be halved by 2015 and removed by 2020
Under this scenario there seems to be enough capacity in the UK to have all the troops home now.
The cost of travel, o'seas allowances etc etc surely must be horrific and, under the current strategic and economic circumstances, it would seem logical to bring them back sooner rather than later.
Must be some very influential Generals sitting at Westminster.

19 destroyers and frigates for goodness sakes.........Give the once proud RN a break
ASSAIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2011   #35
Moderator
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,303
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASSAIL View Post
I am not an expert on the BA hence my question, however, referring to wiki with all its limitations, i find the following:
The 2009 review will cut total numbers in the army to 95,000 a reduction of only 7,000 by 2013.
The current strength of the deployed British Army force in Germany is 40,000 troops and 20,000 civies. This is to be halved by 2015 and removed by 2020
Under this scenario there seems to be enough capacity in the UK to have all the troops home now.
The cost of travel, o'seas allowances etc etc surely must be horrific and, under the current strategic and economic circumstances, it would seem logical to bring them back sooner rather than later.
Must be some very influential Generals sitting at Westminster.

19 destroyers and frigates for goodness sakes.........Give the once proud RN a break
Leaving the troops there gets the MOD around having to provide a stack of new homes for service personnel right at a time they have just pushed a load of renovation work into the future to avoid expense right now. I see what you're saying but it wouldn't produce any savings right now (the very opposite in fact) so better to leave things where they are and then work out what needs to be moved where, with possibly the bulk of them simply not being replaced as they're rotated out.

Ian
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2011   #36
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 5,491
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevoJH View Post
Because it was cheaper to leave it there then to build the facilities back home that would be required to move it back.

Recent/future force cutbacks mean that new facilities either wont be required or will be required in much smaller numbers.
Not quite. It's partly because past governments sold off as much of the military housing & land stock in the UK as they could, not considering whether it might be cheaper to keep some of it & use it to house troops moved back from Germany, & only afterwards realised that they'd rendered the option of pulling out of Germany much more expensive than it need have been.

The army was cut by 54000 between 1989 & 2007, which is slightly less than the numbers in BAOR & Berlin. Numbers in Germany were cut by 36000. Total numbers of troops in the UK were cut at the same time, & bases & housing sold. IIRC all the RAF personnel & aircraft in Germany in 1989 could have been re-housed in UK facilities vacated as a result of cuts.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2011   #37
Defense Professional / Analyst
Major
ASSAIL's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Darwin NT Australia
Posts: 974
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve View Post
Not quite. It's partly because past governments sold off as much of the military housing & land stock in the UK as they could, not considering whether it might be cheaper to keep some of it & use it to house troops moved back from Germany, & only afterwards realised that they'd rendered the option of pulling out of Germany much more expensive than it need have been.

The army was cut by 54000 between 1989 & 2007, which is slightly less than the numbers in BAOR & Berlin. Numbers in Germany were cut by 36000. Total numbers of troops in the UK were cut at the same time, & bases & housing sold. IIRC all the RAF personnel & aircraft in Germany in 1989 could have been re-housed in UK facilities vacated as a result of cuts.
Does the MOD ever consider the private rental market with subsidies? It's a lot cheaper than owning the stock.
ASSAIL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2011   #38
Super Moderator
General
swerve's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire
Posts: 5,491
Threads:
1) It's not just housing.
2) Private rentals aren't always available where the MoD wants them.
3) Private rentals can't provide the right type of housing for some of what the MoD wants.
swerve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011   #39
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Threads:
who knows the planned 13 type 26s may increase to 16 may be a batch 2 type 45s and bae might get a pig to fly we just dont know.......

That would make my whole year!
Is there any plan on a second batch of type 45s? I presume it's a but too early for an increase for the type 26s, maybe when the budget increases they might announce it.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions, I'm enjoying reading these
ComeonBritain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011   #40
Junior Member
Private First Class
No Avatar
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 89
Threads:
There is a very slim chance, assuming justification (Falklands or similar) and economic capabilities, for the two cancelled units to be reinstated however I am pessimistic as to if such action would happen as it is more likely that by the time this is achievable the logical option would be to top up the T26 order which would most likely be ordered around then. A more conceivable option for the T45s is for them to undergo a major refit to give them the weapon systems they were somewhat designed for, i.e. Harpoons, SCALP, 155mm canon etc which would most likely coincide with one of their early refits.
Vanguard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011   #41
Moderator
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,303
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
There is a very slim chance, assuming justification (Falklands or similar) and economic capabilities, for the two cancelled units to be reinstated however I am pessimistic as to if such action would happen as it is more likely that by the time this is achievable the logical option would be to top up the T26 order which would most likely be ordered around then. A more conceivable option for the T45s is for them to undergo a major refit to give them the weapon systems they were somewhat designed for, i.e. Harpoons, SCALP, 155mm canon etc which would most likely coincide with one of their early refits.
I'd be inclined to believe they'll start being fitted out with CEC (co-operative engagement capability) in the coming years, and there is research going on into software updates to the SAMPSON system to allow limited ABM capability, probably against IRBM targets.

The 155mm gun option went away when the MOD cancelled the contract to develop it with BAE unfortunately. Type 26 will be offered more than likely with one of two 127mm options, and I'd be moderately excited if we got the Oto Melario gun with Vulcano compatibility as it'd be a step up from where we are.

*If* that happened, then I'd expect the Type 45's to be refitted with the same gun as they come in for rework.

A second batch of Type 45 is unlikely and truth be told, if it were possible I'd swap it for a pair of Type 26's and all the "fitted for but not with" list for the existing Darings.

Ian
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13th, 2011   #42
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander View Post

Italy and Spain close to the bankrupt have done soft defence cuts and nothing compared to the heavy and massive cuts Britain have done.
I don't know about Spain, but Italy already has a tiny defense budget. There really is nothing left to cut. The money on most of the technology has already been spent.
The budget the Italian government currently reserves for defense is probably the bare minimum needed to sustain Italian troops abroad.

I wish Italy had a budget comparable to Britain.
FabiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011   #43
Banned Member
Master Sergeant
No Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 328
Threads:
The immediate future for Britain is quite simple; decades of stagnation while it rebalances with emerging economies globally and finally harmonises back to being competitive again.

Yes the UK is still a top 10 nations, but it will be crowded out during the coming decades. It will need to adjust to new realities and cut its cloth accordingly.

Big nations and Federations are the future and so the UK will need to swallow its pride and fully commit to a Federal EU at some stage if it wants to avoid a foreseeable future as anything more than a second division nation.
Sampanviking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14th, 2011   #44
Just Hatched
Private
No Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampanviking View Post
The immediate future for Britain is quite simple; decades of stagnation while it rebalances with emerging economies globally and finally harmonises back to being competitive again.

Yes the UK is still a top 10 nations, but it will be crowded out during the coming decades. It will need to adjust to new realities and cut its cloth accordingly.

Big nations and Federations are the future and so the UK will need to swallow its pride and fully commit to a Federal EU at some stage if it wants to avoid a foreseeable future as anything more than a second division nation.
It seems to me that many in the UK seem deluding themselves into thinking they are still citizens of the British Empire.
FabiusMaximus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 21st, 2011
raheelmushtaq
This message has been deleted by Bonza. Reason: violation of forum rules, please STOP posting one liners.
Old December 21st, 2011   #45
Moderator
Major General
No Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 2,303
Threads:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabiusMaximus View Post
It seems to me that many in the UK seem deluding themselves into thinking they are still citizens of the British Empire.
There is a definite need to refocus nationally among some folk. The UK is still a prosperous and militarily capable nation but this constant desire to turn to the past rather than deal with the realities of today is embarrassing.

I speak as a UK citizen
StobieWan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 24th, 2011
madandlucky
This message has been deleted by Bonza. Reason: one liners deleted, please read the forum rules
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:53 AM.