Any experts out there? VZOR 77 DANA info.

[standoff]

Hello all, my name is lewis, I joined defencetalk to try and find info on military vehicles. I am currently negotiating the purchase of a decom Vzor 77 DANA, a Czechoslovakian 152mm self propelled gun on a Tatra T815 chassis (check out the picture) and would be very grateful if there was anyone who could offer some expertise, there arent any in the UK yet and most seem to be in active service so its hard to get advice, I've tried to P.M a deftalk member called tatra (with a name like that he sounded like a good option) but that service seems to be restricted (because im a new member?). if anyone out there can help please post up or email me.

cheers,

lewis

[email protected]

 

[tatra]

Hello all, my name is lewis, I joined defencetalk to try and find info on military vehicles. I am currently negotiating the purchase of a decom Vzor 77 DANA, a Czechoslovakian 152mm self propelled gun on a Tatra T815 chassis (check out the picture) and would be very grateful if there was anyone who could offer some expertise, there arent any in the UK yet and most seem to be in active service so its hard to get advice, I've tried to P.M a deftalk member called tatra (with a name like that he sounded like a good option) but that service seems to be restricted (because im a new member?). if anyone out there can help please post up or email me.

cheers,

lewis

[email protected]

Oy Lewis, what kind of advice you're looking for?

 

[standoff]

vzor

cheers for thr reply tatra.

I've got quite few questions so I'll list them out, any you can help with will be greatly appreciated, its not exactly a subject you can find experts on down your local.

is the dana was based on the 815 or the 816, the dana is 8x8 and i havent seen any other 8x8 815's whereas 8x8 816's are common.

are they permanent 8x8 or can you turn off drive to the front 2 axles?

I know its an air cooled v12 but what size is the engine?

did they come with a P.T.O?

M.P.G? (or G.P.M )

reliability? ive been told that 8x8's with permanent A.W.D end up ruining the hubs or wearing out tires quickly?

spares?

price? ive been quoted £20k with all paper work, delivered, no warranty.

i think they're the main ones but anything you might know would be useful.

thanks very much for your time,

lewis.

 

[aaaditya]

Hello all, my name is lewis, I joined defencetalk to try and find info on military vehicles. I am currently negotiating the purchase of a decom Vzor 77 DANA, a Czechoslovakian 152mm self propelled gun on a Tatra T815 chassis (check out the picture) and would be very grateful if there was anyone who could offer some expertise, there arent any in the UK yet and most seem to be in active service so its hard to get advice, I've tried to P.M a deftalk member called tatra (with a name like that he sounded like a good option) but that service seems to be restricted (because im a new member?). if anyone out there can help please post up or email me.

cheers,

lewis

[email protected]

here is an interesting article:

http://www.tanksforsale.co.uk/Dana/dana.htm

http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/dana.html

 

[tatra]

On the Dana see: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/dana.htm

Tatra is known for production of various models of tracks, chassis, and chassis-cabs based on its own special chassis design - torsion and bending free backbone tube type of chassis, with independent swing half-axles, which can be produced as all-wheel-drive 4x4 up to 12x12 versions.

Tatra 813, 815 and 816 all come in 8x8. The 813 and 815 come in 6x6 as well. There is even a 4x4 version of 813, a 12x12 version of 815 and 10x10 versions of both 815 and 817. Generally very popular for excellent terrain abilities, durability and reliability.

To my knowledge all are permanent all wheel drive, with gear reduction in wheels (except in 4x4 version), interaxle and axle lockable differentials, central tyre inflation system (except 4x4 version).

Aircooled v12 of 19000 cm3 swept volume, max power output 235 hp at 2200 rpm, max torque 1130/1400 NM/rpm.

Power Take Off (PTO): not to my knowledge.

Fuel consumption for the T 815 VT 8 x 8 military tractor (which uses the same engine) is 45,2 l/100 km. For the T 815 VVN 8 x 8 , which is a four-axle, off-road platform vehicle, fuel consumption is 45-50 l / 100 km

Engine and other specs for 815 and 816 here: http://clanky.tatraportal.com/modifikace/atm1997_04-08.jpg

Lots more info here:
http://www.tatraportal.sk/?ukaz=data/clanky/clanky
http://www.vop028presov.sk/T815-VT8x8-en.html
http://www.tatra.cz/en/down/profil_EN.pdf (includes list of dealers)

 

[standoff]

blimey!

cheers tatra, i clearly asked the right guy on this one, you sure do know your stuff. pardon my ignorance but does the gear reduction in each wheel work like a split diff to allow independant wheel rotation?

thanks for your time, its really appreciated.

lewis

 

[standoff]

cheers

thanks for the links aaaditya, as it goes im buying it through tanksforsale.co.uk, they're the only people i've found selling them. anybody out there had any dealings with them?


Thanks for your time

lewis.

 

[tatra]

cheers tatra, i clearly asked the right guy on this one, you sure do know your stuff. pardon my ignorance but does the gear reduction in each wheel work like a split diff to allow independant wheel rotation?

thanks for your time, its really appreciated.

lewis

I would think so, but look at the diagrams in the links below;

http://clanky.tatraportal.com/tatra813_zpravy_caz/a1967_10-2.jpg
http://clanky.tatraportal.com/modifikace/atm1997_04-03.jpg

Also, read this:
http://www.vop028presov.sk/T815-en.html

 

[standoff]

thanks once again, think its maybe an adventageous time to learn czechoslovakian. I'm going to contact the original manufacturers of the dana, i think they're ZTS of czech. they might be able to help with any info on common complaints or things to look out for.

hope i can be of some service in return for the advice tatra, clearly i have a limited knowledge of military vehicles, however have a few companies i run that might be of use to you or friends etc. look in my profile for info, if theres anything i could help with i'd be happy to. oh and of course theres always the fact im buying a dana which'll be available to play with.

cheers,

lewis.

 

[tatra]

There should be some czech - english and vv dictionaries if not translation software online.

Have fun driving the Dana! (what traffic jam?)

 

[Gollevainen]

So what exactly are you planning to do with the system?

Anyway, as the issue is on the table, I might just sneak in and ruthlessly use the opportunity to ask this one question bothered me for a while now...

...About the actual howitser onboard. What type is it? Is it based on some existing modell (perhaps a soviet one) or specifically designed for the DANA system? All information seems to mess around the tatra truck and otherautomotive parts, but none in the actual heart...

sorry to intervene to your queries standoff, hope you don't mind, It's just that I really like to know...

 

[tatra]

Anyway, as the issue is on the table, I might just sneak in and ruthlessly use the opportunity to ask this one question bothered me for a while now...

...About the actual howitser onboard. What type is it? Is it based on some existing modell (perhaps a soviet one) or specifically designed for the DANA system? All information seems to mess around the tatra truck and otherautomotive parts, but none in the actual heart...

sorry to intervene to your queries standoff, hope you don't mind, It's just that I really like to know...

Given when and where Dana was developed, and Chechoslovakia not producing a towed 152mm gun-howitzer, it is probable the ordnance is based on Soviet 152mm artillery in service in WP at that time (2s3, D-20/M1955/M-55, M-137 i.e. the 2A33 cannon). The newer 2A36 used on 2s5/M1981 and towed M1976 entered service in WP was fielded 1981 or so, which is shortly after Dana came out, making it a possible but less likely candidate.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/dana.htm

The 152mm self-propelled gun/howitzer (ZTS ShKH model 77 a.k.a. vz. or vzor 77) developed in the late 1970s by ZTS for the Czechoslovak army, instead of purchasing the Soviet 2S3 Akatsiya. Zuzana 155mm Self Propelled Gun Howitzer is artillery gun for using of 155 mm ammunition (same vehicle, different ordnance)

BALLISTIC DATA:

Barrel:
Calibre: 155 mm
Length: 45 calibres

Projectiles:
Type: M107, ERFB-BT, ERFB-BB
Shell mass - with generator (ERFB-BB): 48.0 kg
- with no generator (ERFB-BT): 45,5 kg
- M107: 43,1 kg
Powder charge mass (maximum): 17,5 kg

Shell muzzle velocity (with maximum charge) at 15°C/50°C: 890/930 mps

Maximum all-burnt pressure (with maximum charge) at 15°C/50°C: 330/380 MPa

All-burnt pressure at the muzzle at -30°C: 93 MPa

Path of projectile: 5,946 mm

Range of fire:
- Maximum range of fire for M107/ERFB-BT/ERFB-BB 17,5/30,7/39,0 km
- Maximum range of fire (elevation 70°, charge no. 4M4A2, shell ERFB-BT): 5,3 km

Power at the muzzle at +50°C: 20,5 MJ

Charge compartment capacity with ERFB-BT: 23,64 dm3

Barrel bore cross section: 19,240 mm2

Range:
- Maximum elevation with 40 pcs of ammo and supporting blocks shifted out: 70°
- Minimum elevation (depression) with 40 pcs of ammo and supporting blocks shifted out: -3°30´
- Azimuth: ±60°

Motor-assisted laying speed:
- Maximum rate of elevation: 64 mils per second
- Maximum rate of traverse: 85 mils per second
- Minimum rate of elevation: 4 mils per second
- Minimum rate of traverse: 4 mils per second

Loading: automatic mode by means of loading device and manual mode

Rate of fire:
- in automatic mode: 5 to 6 round in the 1st minute, 30 rounds in 6 minutes
- in manual mode: 1 round in 2 minutes

Number of shells carried: 40

Weight:
- Barrel assy: 2,860 kg
- Elevation masses: 3,850 kg
- Traverse masses (incl. accessories and armament): 12,250 kg
- Chassis (incl. fuel, fluids, armament and accessories): 16,350 kg
- Total weight of 155 mm SpGH (incl. fuel, fluids, armament and accessories and 40 pcs of shells carried, without crewmen): 29,000 kg

 

[Gollevainen]

Well D-20 and Giasint are the ones that i've toughted too. The tube is the proplem as it's longer (I don't know the exact calibre) than in D-20 but smaller than in Giasint. So at least some parts of the gun must be indegenious. Perhaps it's a completely indegenious one, Although checks didn't make any other artillery pieces during the coldwar era, they still must have something left of the glorious days of Skoda...

...But one thing might help us with this proplem and that is a good interior fotos of the system which would show us the breech...At least some sort of assumptions ca be made on those...

So Standoff, when you got the DANA, would you help us by taking some good pics with digicam

 

[tatra]

2s3/D-20 (2a33) 152 x 34 caliber
2a36 152 x 49 caliber
Giatsint 152 x 49 caliber
MSTA-S 152 x 47 caliber

Dana 152 x 47 caliber
Ondava 152 x 53 caliber
Zuzanna 155 x 45 and 52 caliber

 

[Gollevainen]

So if only looking to the tube lenght, MSTA-S would have the same calibre as in Dana...but tubes hardly tells the story, we would need to see the breech. Anyone having any interior pics about the DANA??

 

[tatra]

Towed 2a65/MSTA-B (aka M1987) has a 53 caliber barrel. Interoperable with legacy systems. The production of a howitzer 2A65 "MSTA-B " on Perm Plant would begin in 1987. SP 2s19/MSTA-S entered service with the Russian Army in 1989. Both about a decade later than Dana, which IMHO rules them out as origin of the Dana/Ondava ordnance.

2a36: Towed 152mm with 49 caliber barrel (or 54 cal, I've seen both numbers quoted). Not interoperable with 2S3 and similar legacy systems. Related to self propelled 2S5. Gun's test models passed trials in 1971-1972. It's serial production began in 1976. This would make it contemporary to Dana

The CSLA's tube artillery inventory in 1987 included 250 M-53 (100mm), 100 M-1931 and M-1937 (122mm), and 75 M-46 (130mm) guns. It also included 90 M-1937 (152mm) gun-howitzers and 250 D-30 (105mm), M-30 (122mm) towed, and M-1974 (122mm) self-propelled howitzers, plus 175 DANA (M-77) (152mm) Tatra 813 truck-mounted, self-propelled howitzers. Introduction of the heavy Soviet M-240 (240mm) self-propelled mortar began in late 1986 or early 1987; the 2S7 (203mm) self-propelled gun was known to have been in use in 1986.

So, it appear that at the time Czechoslovakia did not have any modern 152mm tube artillery in service (The M-1937 is the ML-20 152mm from 1937.) They developed Dana instead of getting the 2S3 from Russia. Since the gun performance of Dana is superior to that of 2S3, its development and adoption may also have reduced the need for acquisition of 2S5, with its separate family of 152mm ammo.

According to Army Recognition, the ordnance of Dana is derived (probably by Skoda) from that of the Soviet 2s3/M1973 i.e. ultimately from D-20.

 

[Gollevainen]

Thanks..

That would make sense, the D-20 beeing the starting point for the gun. Wondering did Chechs plan a towed version of the howitser??
Intresting note is that Yugoslavia have made a longertube version of the D-20 as well called Nora. There is also a selfpropelled version of this howitser called B52, which is also a wheeled system, but unlike DANA the platform is more tradditional truck model and the howitser is located in the back (similar ways as the French ceasar system)

 

[standoff]

pics of dana

hey Gollevainen, no worries with the post take over, i think I've run out of questions, its going to take a few months for the sale to be complete plus there a few things to iron out (like trying to convince the german and french governments that it'd be a good idea to let me drive it directly through their countries on the way home) its a shame your over in finland, you'd be more than welcome to come and inspect it personally. As soon as i get my hands on it Ill be posting up photos like some unhinged american 4 year old beauty pageant winners mother.

thanks to everyone for all there help. oh if anyone knows of places other than tanksforsale.com to pick these up, maybe some military contact, please let me know.

 

[Gollevainen]

Well If I ever visit UK....

Eagerly waiting to see the photos...

 

[tatra]

Thanks..

That would make sense, the D-20 beeing the starting point for the gun. Wondering did Chechs plan a towed version of the howitser??
Intresting note is that Yugoslavia have made a longertube version of the D-20 as well called Nora. There is also a selfpropelled version of this howitser called B52, which is also a wheeled system, but unlike DANA the platform is more tradditional truck model and the howitser is located in the back (similar ways as the French ceasar system)

Nope, and the Dana is still their only modern 152mm system

Pics of Nora 152mm L39:

B52 self propelled version
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/3901/155mmnorab52016ts.jpg

M84 towed version
http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/nora1.jpg

Info
http://naoruzanje.paracin.co.yu/nora.html