NZDF General discussion thread

Lucasnz · April 16th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tasman

I think you have made some excellent points in this post Lucasnz. What you propose would provide modest but sensible improvements to the army and would restore the air force to something like its strength a decade ago.

Your proposals for the navy have merit. You are probably right re the submarines. The addition of three corvettes would certainly provide teeth to the navy's firepower but my personal preference would be for at least one and preferably two frigates as I believe they could contribute more to power projection. NZ has operated 4 frigates in the past and I can't see why it could not do so in the future, especially given the fact that personnel requirements on modern frigates are much lower than they were in the past.

Cheers

New Zealand's focus on frigates is historical and fails to reflect changes in sensors and weapons. For example the Anti Air capability on the Leanders (even updated with improved Fire Control, CWIS & Sensors like Canterbury) is more than surpassed by ships like the German K130, equipped with RAM. NZ could acheive today with a corvette outfitted ship (Size being determined by sea keeping & endurance) what it use to acheive with Frigates. I think frigates have their place in the RNZN (As command and area survellience vessels) but NZ needs to way cost, against numbers and right now we don't have the numbers, even with Project Protector, to deal with our own security issues and that of the wider region.

NZLAV · April 16th, 2007

If there was a budget increase to 2.5-3% and a 3 year $10 billion equipment package (say in about 2020)I would like to attain:

Army

100 Tracked IFV - 25mm cannon
50 Wheeled AFV
320 IMV (to replace LOV)

16 155mm guns
14 SP 155mm
60 MRAAW
16 Medium range AA weapon systems

Navy
4 Frigates
2 160m MRV
2 Replenish/Tankers
4 OPV - 76mm
6 IPV - 25mm
2 MCM
1 Hydrographic

Air Force
34 + possible 36 second hand fighters
22 Light fighters/trainers
8 Medium/heavy Transport
6 Maritime patrol
16 medium utility helicopters
12 LUH - armed
16 light attack (simialr to super tucano)

This is not a huge list. Its just adding on to numbers and adding several major capibilites.

StingrayOZ · April 16th, 2007

I think the submarines are a bit of a pipe dream. I think any major upgrade of NZ defences are (inc patrol boats). But lets stay positive. Small nations like singapore operate submarines, I don't think NZ is not able to.

Smaller submarines, would they be useful? If deployed from NZ could the atleast make it up to the northern tip of Australia?

Collins has one of the smallest crews on the planet. Buying one of the other subs would not assist in that regard.

Procurement cost wise, I think Australia might come half way if two additional submarines were avalible in the region. The next generation of subs may be more affordable, after the lessons learn from the origional collins program. They are not AIP, they are not nuclear, they would be based on existing collins systems. Canada would most likely be interested in buying 3-6 of them herself (Victoria class will be well old by 2020 after the OZ subs are built) so you are looking at a much more affordable project. Infact NZ having one or two may resolve fears that Canada may have about operating Australian built subs.

Still if NZ could put together a submarine crew that would be impressive in itself. I think a submarine would be the most powerful upgrade NZ could aquire and assert itself as a regional power and not just a police force. But the fact a submarine is a machine of war not a tool for distaster relief places it in the unlikely basket. But it can operate independant of other vessels in a war (unlike a ANZAC frigate or corvettes).

The potential of a next gen collins with Harpoon, Tomahawk, Mod 7's, SAS deployment would be a huge boost to NZ's capabilities.

old faithful · April 16th, 2007

Add an FFG
4 more NH90,s
Raise a Marine comando unit.(1xHQ coy. 1x Support coy,2 x CDO coy)
Alternatley,increase the NZ SAS by at least another SQN.
Major upgrade of P3K
Amphib APC purchace x@20 veh (NZLAV can not swim)

I think this would increase the Kiwi,s ability to add to an ANZAC task force,and other international campaigns. A sub force would be great,but that would be stretching it i think. I also believe that the above would be achievable in a short time frame.

Todjaeger · April 17th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucasnz

New Zealand's focus on frigates is historical and fails to reflect changes in sensors and weapons. For example the Anti Air capability on the Leanders (even updated with improved Fire Control, CWIS & Sensors like Canterbury) is more than surpassed by ships like the German K130, equipped with RAM. NZ could acheive today with a corvette outfitted ship (Size being determined by sea keeping & endurance) what it use to acheive with Frigates. I think frigates have their place in the RNZN (As command and area survellience vessels) but NZ needs to way cost, against numbers and right now we don't have the numbers, even with Project Protector, to deal with our own security issues and that of the wider region.

Wow this thread sounds familiar... Moving along though...

I would like to see the NZDF arranged as follows

RNZN
3 upgraded Anzac frigates (3rd MEKO 200 hull built in Europe kitted in Aus/NZ)
OR
2 upgraded Anzacs plus
2-4 K130-type corvettes, though with Mk 48 or 54 VLS for ESSM

2 Upgunned OPV (57mm should suffice with mini-Typhoons)
1 JSS-style AOR/LOLO vessel
4 upgunned IPV (25mm)
2+ MCM/patrol/training vessels w/25mm+ gun and SAM (mistral?)
1 MRV (HMNZS Canterbury) with mini-typhoons
formation of an SBS unit or combat dive team

For the RNZN, I'm not sure whether another frigate or a few corvettes are better. Having more corvettes would allow greater potential striking power around NZ, but I'm not sure that they would be able to match the Anzacs in terms of seakeeping and range. For the OPV, I don't see real value in mounting a 76mm since they wouldn't be used as warships. However, something with greater range and more effective against civilian shipping for emergencies would be sensible, especially if there isn't room in the hangar to carry munitions for the Seasprite. The rest more or less follows as expected additions or upgrades.

RNZAF
Reactivation of the MB-339 for pilot training, as well as army & navy training
P-3K upgrade of ASW equipment and addition of standoff AShM
Upgrade of Seasprite for ASW role
OR
NFH-90 version for use aboard the Anzacs
Addition of Q300 sized MPA/training aircraft
AAR role for Boeing 757 (or replacement with A330 MRTT like the RAAF)
C-130H replaced/augmented with KC-130J

Getting into a slightly unrealistic area...
JAS39 Gripen (with upgraded engine) and/or
F-35 JSF once it starts being fielded

Army
Addition of an IMV to forces
Addition and/or replacement of NZLAV with an actual IFV
tracked 120mm AMOS
radar queued Mistral
additional Javelin
replace 105mm howitzers with 155mm SP with advanced/guided munitions
armoured engineering equipment
expansion of NZSAS

-Cheers

stray_kiwi · April 17th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZLAV

If there was a budget increase to 2.5-3% and a 3 year $10 billion equipment package (say in about 2020)I would like to attain:

Air Force
34 + possible 36 second hand fighters
22 Light fighters/trainers
8 Medium/heavy Transport
6 Maritime patrol
16 medium utility helicopters
12 LUH - armed
16 light attack (simialr to super tucano)

This is not a huge list. Its just adding on to numbers and adding several major capibilites.

IMHO thats too many fighters. When you think about peacetime deployments thats an awful lot of aircraft sitting on the ground. I personally prefer Lucasnz's scenario of a similarly sized air combat force to what NZ enjoyed prior to 2001. While we could use the Macchi's as a low cost option I favour buying Hawks from the Australians and utilising them as both a lead-in trainer so our pilots are able to fly the F/A-18s or JSF's of the RAAF if needed, but also with the option of mounting air to surface munitions for secondary ground attack/maritime strike roles.

NZLAV · April 18th, 2007

Just going off topic a little bit, a change I would like to see is the name of the New Zealand elite forces. They are currently called the SAS, which is used by many nations. I would prefer the name Elite Warriors because it relates more to New Zealands history. Also I would like to see an Honorary Protective guard established (similar to Croatias, 200 personal) that will be troops loyal to the government.

Waylander · April 18th, 2007

Aren't all the troops loyal to the governement?
I would think that NZ is one of the last countries needing a sort of republican guard within its armed forces.

Elite Warriors sounds a little bit like out of an B-Action Movie.

KH-12 · April 18th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waylander

Aren't all the troops loyal to the governement?
I would think that NZ is one of the last countries needing a sort of republican guard within its armed forces.

Elite Warriors sounds a little bit like out of an B-Action Movie.

Or an animated Action Toy

Seriously why does the NZ government need an elite unit to protect it, Helen's glare would scare off most potential foes !

merocaine · April 18th, 2007

Quote:

I would prefer the name Elite Warriors because it relates more to New Zealands history. Also I would like to see an Honorary Protective guard established (similar to Croatias, 200 personal) that will be troops loyal to the government.

Defend the Sheep! Defend the Sheep! We must defend the Sheep!....

sorry could'ent resist, what are you talking about? all soldiers are loyal to the serving goverment, you live in a democracy not a dictatorship.

Todjaeger · April 18th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by NZLAV

Just going off topic a little bit, a change I would like to see is the name of the New Zealand elite forces. They are currently called the SAS, which is used by many nations. I would prefer the name Elite Warriors because it relates more to New Zealands history. Also I would like to see an Honorary Protective guard established (similar to Croatias, 200 personal) that will be troops loyal to the government.

Why change the name of the SAS? The reason it's called the SAS is because of the Malay Emergency when the British SAS was reformed, and at the same time, the capability was organized for NZ and Australia. Also, given the reputation of the SAS, I see no issue with the NZSAS...

As for a Protective Guard, to what purpose? Is this a ceremonial unit (like the AFG, or the Life Guard) or is it something to protect the head of government? If the latter, why?

-Cheers

StingrayOZ · April 18th, 2007

Haha, They could be called the Sheep highlander Elite expeditionary Protectorate. or S.H.E.E.P. Standard uniform would be a special NZ camoflage, lambs wool..

Some other pacific island nations could proberly do with such a force. They change governments like underpants.

Lucasnz · April 19th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by StingrayOZ

Haha, They could be called the Sheep highlander Elite expeditionary Protectorate. or S.H.E.E.P. Standard uniform would be a special NZ camoflage, lambs wool..

Some other pacific island nations could proberly do with such a force. They change governments like underpants.

Oh this whole change in track is just killing me