Five Power Defence Arrangement - HQ Integrated Area Defence System
This is a discussion on Five Power Defence Arrangement - HQ Integrated Area Defence System within the Geo-Strategic Defense forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by weasel1962
I tot its a permanent detachment.
Understand role is to perform operation Gateway for traffic surveillance ...
Understand role is to perform operation Gateway for traffic surveillance in the Indian Ocean. Interesting focus (rather than South China Sea).
I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang . With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.
Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.
I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang . With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.
Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.
Hello! Another incredible India story? INS Delhi = surface ship, so why hunt it with sonabuoys?
Hello! Another incredible India story? INS Delhi = surface ship, so why hunt it with sonabuoys?
It might have been an effort to gather the Indian ship's acoustic signature for inclusion in a sound/threat library. While you are right that an airplane or surface ship whould have little use for this infomation, (well, a DD or frigate might have some use for it, but not much of one) it would be highly beneficial for a submarine like the RAN's Collins boats. Subs don't have eyes, so they have to use their ears instead.
It also might have been a delibrate effort to get the India ship to turn on its fire control system and give away some information on its radar (frequencies, etc.), info which is always useful.
I suspect a cold war role for the RAAF P-3s may have been gathering ELINT and SIGINT on Soviet ships in the Indian ocean and at Cam Ranh Bay and Da Nang . With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.
It's not just a cold war task. every LR maritime aviation asset is a "cleaner"
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM
Regarding the incident wth the P-3 and the INS Delhi, did this receive any coverage in the Aussie press? According to the Indians, the fire control was activated after the P-3 made numerous low level passes and dropped sonabuoys. Would have been very unpleasent if the Indians had fired.
This has been run in the open press a number of times. fundamentally it was rubbish journalism. the orion was actually focused on other issues, the fact that the IN had an asset in that loc had nothing to do with it.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
It might have been an effort to gather the Indian ship's acoustic signature for inclusion in a sound/threat library.
Except like minded allies don't need to always go and add to their own threat libraries - ie we share data constantly. eg (and this is significant) CBASS was developed off Aust acoustic management software and shared threat libraries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM
While you are right that an airplane or surface ship whould have little use for this infomation, (well, a DD or frigate might have some use for it, but not much of one) it would be highly beneficial for a submarine like the RAN's Collins boats. Subs don't have eyes, so they have to use their ears instead.
except they don't need to gather that data by air anyway - the information and material would be available from any number of sources.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STURM
It also might have been a delibrate effort to get the India ship to turn on its fire control system and give away some information on its radar (frequencies, etc.), info which is always useful.
again, see above. a known system with known parameters would be of academic interest, and as I indicated prev, the Orion was more interested in something else occurring at that time. The INS Delhi was not it. She happened to be an accidental tourist during the event.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
The source indicates a news report in the Times of India.
- Dinesh Kumar, ‘Australian Aircraft Takes Pictures of Indian Vessels’, Times of India, 17 December 1997.
Its detente since then with exercise malabar in 07 and delhi class ddg visiting down under. I think the RAN had a collins listening in for malabar (ol' habits die hard). USN had P-3s/subs participate during the Malabar exercises as well.
The source indicates a news report in the Times of India.
- Dinesh Kumar, ‘Australian Aircraft Takes Pictures of Indian Vessels’, Times of India, 17 December 1997.
Its detente since then with exercise malabar in 07 and delhi class ddg visiting down under. I think the RAN had a collins listening in for malabar (ol' habits die hard). USN had P-3s/subs participate during the Malabar exercises as well.
I'd be taking that with a pinch of salt.
eg we listen in on our allies as well, everyone does. It's a normal part part of training.
TALISMAN SABRE is like a submariners convention with attendees and uninvited guests all having a sniff.
Its just business.
________________ A corollary of Finagle's Law, similar to Occam's Razor, says:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity"
The source indicates a news report in the Times of India.
- Dinesh Kumar, ‘Australian Aircraft Takes Pictures of Indian Vessels’, Times of India, 17 December 1997.
No need, there's lots of pixs of that ship which are taken when they are visiting a foreign port. I'm sure the Americans/Australians/Chinese... and a long, long list of other countries maintain a non-open source warship database of their own.
Not in 1997 though. INS Delhi was only commissioned in 15 Nov 1997. The incident would probably have occurred around that time.
I agree with GF though. Its over-blown and everyone does it. However, it is reflective of the Indian sensitivities in the run-up to the 1998 nuke tests (operation Shakti) and elections. There were also tensions in the Indian navy resulting in the sacking of the Chief of Navy.
As gf0012-aust said ''its just business''. Its routine and everyone expects others to do it.
Off topic but in 95 or 96, Janes reported that a RSAF Fokker would make a regular weekly run of flying up the Melaka Straits collecting SIGINT and ELINT on the Malaysians before making a night stop in Yangoon.
Last edited by STURM; January 26th, 2010 at 02:54 AM.
^^Off topic, I've had drinks with a former radar operator on our puppies. We are using some American gear. Anyway, it's all moot. Your guys/gals are now invited to join us for flights. It's now big love... work together and so on...
As gf0012-aust said ''its just business''. Its routine and everyone expects others to do it.
Off topic but in 95 or 96, Janes reported that a RSAF Fokker would make a regular weekly run of flying up the Melaka Straits collecting SIGINT and ELINT on the Malaysians before making a night stop in Yangoon.
Those included C-130s. Its not just Janes. See paras relating to footnotes 91-95 in the link below:
. With the Soviet bases now gone from the region, another possibility could be keeping an eye on the PLAN sub base at Hainan.
