Defence Talk Forum - Air Force & Aviation

The F-16 replacement of the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

IPA35 — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:37:59 GMT

I need you opinions on this.

We currently own 86 F-16's that need to be replaced.
The MoD's favourite is 85 F-35A's but it is getting clear that we are not able to affor 85 units, it has leaked that we will onlky be able to buy and operate 55 planes and that while we might be able to buy the other planes we will not be able to operate them.
The F-35 budget was around 6 billion for the purchase and 10 for 30 years of service.
SAAB offered their Gripen NG at 5 + 5 billion BTW.

So what do you people think that's the best solution?
Feel free to suggest more then 1 type.

Italian Navy AB 204

groundsar — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:35:02 GMT

Hi all

Does anyone know when the AB 204AS was taken out of service by the Italian Navy?

Can't find any info via google

Thanks

China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter

cheetah — Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:35:44 GMT

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.

No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.

China classifies aircraft of the F-22’s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China’s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.

Work on “the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,” He says.

Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.

The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.

If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
Brookes takes seriously the Chinese objective of technology equivalent to the F-22, and he sees no reason to doubt that the F-22 would be the standard against which they would judge their design. The know-how can be imported.

“The Russians have the technology and the Chinese have the money,” he says. “If they really set that as a target, then I think they can do it.”

The aircraft may not bother Western manufacturers in export markets, Brookes suggests, simply because an equivalent of the F-22 would be a destabilizing export that China would be prefer to keep to itself.

Even if China decides that it wants to export the fighter, Lockheed Martin should by then be well entrenched with the F-35, which should be mature and reliable at that point. Other manufactures may not be so well placed, however.

Gen. He made his remarks during an interview on China Central Television as part of the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the air force of the People’s Republic of China. (The general’s surname is pronounced as “her” but without the “r.”)

China is probably working on two fifth-generation concepts, says Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. One of those concepts, appearing most commonly in bits and pieces of evidence that have turned up from time to time, would be a heavy twin-engine fighter probably of about the same size as the F-22. The other is a single-engine aircraft probably closer to the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Gen. He could be referring to either of the aircraft when predicting an entry into service during the next decade. Fisher’s bet is that he is talking about the twin-engine concept.

Like Brookes, Fisher believes China is realistically aiming at the F-22’s technology level. “One has to assume that the People’s Liberation Army is confident in its projections, as it almost never makes such comments about future military programs, especially one that has been as closely held as its next-generation fighter.

“As such, one has to be asking very hard questions: How did the U.S. intelligence community get this one wrong? And inasmuch as no one expects the F-35 to replace the F-22 in the air superiority role, is it time to acknowledge that F-22 production termination is premature and that a much higher number is needed to sustain deterrence in Asia?”

In his July 16 speech, Gates said that even in 2025 China would have but a handful of fifth-generation aircraft.
The new Chinese fighter could come from the Chengdu or Shenyang plants of Avic Defense.

Gen. He says the Chinese air force plans to emphasize development of four capabilities: reconnaissance and early warning, air strike, strategic supply, and air and missile defense.

The J-10 began large-scale service entry in 2006, state media say.

When Wu raised the prospect of a supercruising fighter, an easy answer seemed to be an advanced version of the J-10. That looks less likely now that He describes the future concept as a full generation ahead of the J-10.

“I believe the Chinese have a difficult road if their design is tied to the J-10,” says a U.S. Air Force officer involved in the development of the F-35. “Significantly reduced signature requires more than coatings. It requires an integrated design philosophy with the right shaping, the right structure and the right surface coatings.”

Fisher assumes that China is developing improved fourth-generation fighters in parallel with the fifth generation.

The existence of the airlifter has been known for several years, if only because pictures of it have appeared fleetingly in presentations by the Chinese aviation conglomerate Avic.

As expected, it turns out to be a product of Avic’s large-airplane subsidiary, Avic Aircraft and, more specifically, of the subsidiary’s core plant, Xi’an Aircraft.

Avic Aircraft General Manager Hu Xiaofeng says the airlifter is in the 200-metric-ton class and will be unveiled at the end of this year.

In fact, its design has already unveiled in pictures shown by state media. The four-engine aircraft adopts the universal high-wing, T-tail configuration. The wing is mounted on top of the circular body, rather than passing through a deep segment of it and cutting out much of the usable cross-section. In that respect it is like the A400M, Ilyushin Il-76 and Kawasaki C-X but unlike the C-17, whose embedded wing presents less frontal area.
The main gear of the Chinese aircraft is housed in very protuberant sponsons, like those of the C-17.

A photograph of the cockpit shows five electronic displays of moderate size and conventional transport-style control columns. Engines are not revealed but would presumably be imported from Russia. A wind-tunnel model shows the engines are enclosed in long nacelles, like those of the Perm PS-90 from Russia.

The PS-90 has a standard maximum thrust of 35,300 lb. in its latest version. The C-17, with a gross weight of 265 tons, is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines of 40,400 lb. thrust.

The airlifter’s fuselage appears to be of conventional metal construction. The aircraft will be significantly larger than the A400M, which has a 141-metric-ton gross weight.

Hu says it has been independently developed in China. However, his parent company, Avic, has a long history of cooperation with Ukrainian airlifter specialist Antonov.

With David A. Fulghum in Washington.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...xt-Gen Fighter

Admin. Up until this point you were doing fine. Don't however try to bait other members or trot out silly comments or you will end up being treated as a troll. It wasn't necessary and you have polluted your credibility by posting such drivel. Take it as a warning - and from a Mod who has asian blood coursing through their veins.

info on fighters

charles34 — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 08:38:12 GMT

What do you guys think is the best and most up to date place on the net to read about fighter craft?

su-33 vs f-18 superhornet

charles34 — Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:47:07 GMT

I am curious if anyone knows how the f-18 super hornet does vs the su-33. the reason I ask is if there was ever carrier battle these 2 jets would probably be the most likely to fight it out. So please respond

Dubai AirShow 2009

icekid — Sun, 15 Nov 2009 07:50:23 GMT

I am going to Dubai Airshow tomorrow.
It's 15-19 Nov.

Can't wait for the show. It's $50 fee for 5 days pass.

F-22 is going to be there YAY me.

if you are using twitter lots of people are tweeting about it like pics and video. Search for #DXB09
in twitter.

Some of the interesting twitter for Dubai Airshow 2009:
Dubai Airshow (DubaiAirshow) on Twitter
Defence Aviation (defenceaviation) on Twitter
Thales Group (thalesgroup) on Twitter

Enjoy

J-10 (FC-20) for Pakistan After All?

Feanor — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:53:09 GMT

Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters

It looks like a deal for 36 fighters has been signed. This is surprising. So now Pakistan will be flying the F-16, JF-17, and J-10?

Is the F-35 doomed?

djpav — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:31:09 GMT

It seems that the F-35 is getting a lot of bad press lately, and there is no question that some of it is justified (the cost keeps going up and the delays are mounting). This article is quite damning:

Winslow T. Wheeler: The Self-Dismembering F-35

Here's a quote: "At 49,500 pounds in air-to-air take-off weight with an engine rated at 42,000 pounds of thrust, it will be a significant step backward in thrust-to-weight and acceleration for a new fighter. In fact, at that weight and with just 460 square feet of wing area for the Air Force and Marine Corps versions, the F-35's small wings will be loaded with 108 pounds for every square foot, one third worse than the F-16A. (Wings that are large relative to weight are crucial for maneuvering and surviving in combat.) The F-35 is, in fact, considerably less maneuverable than the appallingly vulnerable F-105 "Lead Sled," a fighter that proved helpless in dogfights against MiGs over North Vietnam. (A chilling note: most of the Air Force's fleet of F-105s was lost in four years of bombing; one hundred pilots were lost in just six months.)

Nor is the F-35 a first class bomber for all that cost: in its stealthy mode it carries only a 4,000 pound payload, one third the 12,000 pounds carried by the "Lead Sled."

As a "close air support" ground-attack aircraft to help US troops engaged in combat, the F-35 is too fast to identify the targets it is shooting at; too delicate and flammable to withstand ground fire, and too short-legged to loiter usefully over embattled US ground units for sustained periods. It is a giant step backward from the current A-10"

Is the F35 destined to be an all-time mega-expensive failure? Should partner countries start looking at other options? Your thoughtful comments, please.

Hide and seek

Palnatoke — Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:28:42 GMT

I am interested in how the "game" of Radars vs. Stealth is developing.

Specifically I would like to use it to get a better understanding of the importance of VLO objects in millitary applications - and those objects that are not VLO.

Are f.ex. the F18, eurofighter, Raf or gripen made obsolete by not being VLO?

Can a VLO anti ship missile, with a highish degree of probability slip undetected through the defense around a ship, and hence render larger surface combattants , well, obsolete?

How stealthy can you make a ship - say a frigate?

How effective are modern radars? Do they attain sufficient ressolution at sufficient ranges to detect these VLO objects in time? I think specifically on AESA types of radars.

How does the, I think it's called, frequvency agility of these AESA radars affect the stealth properties of the VLO object? I am thinking that the object should look different, in different wavelengths/frequvencies. A follow up question is, how agile are these radars, in which spectrum can they emit electromagnetic radiation?

As I understand the math/physics, the AESA radars are "low probability of intercept", where "Low" should be read as "unlikely".

Is the following scenario realistic:
A VLO object f.ex. an air plane or ship achives 100% advantage on a non-VLO object, by remaining undetected while using it's ASEA radar to scan the non-VLO object that can't intercept let alone know that it is being scanned?

Can the technology behind AESA radars be used to devise radars of practical dimensions that operate in f.ex. the near meter bands, and can modern DSP (digital signal processing) be used to make such long wave radars effective (that'll be sufficiently surpressing the noise in that region of EM). If so, can that technology be used to completely negate most current stealth (Ie. that an object which is VLO in the, say, millimeter band isn't VLO in the, say, meter band) .

any input would be greatly appreciated.

Who is the most iconic RAF figure of World War Two?

Park82 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 14:49:40 GMT

Here at the RAF Benevolent Fund (RAFBF) we are holding a poll to find the most iconic RAF figure of World War Two. To vote please visit:

90 faces of the RAF Benevolent Fund

The poll is featured on our special 90th anniversary website, �90 Faces of the RAFBF�, which features 90 stories about our history, fundraisers and supporters.
If you visit you can listen to Winston Churchill's famous 1951 radio appeal on behalf of the RAFBF, watch videos of beneficiaries and serving RAF personnel describe how we help, and learn about the enormous support we enjoy among the RAF family.

Questions on thre Nitehawk pod

STURM — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 04:00:33 GMT

Hello,

What advantages besides offering better image resolution do newer targetting pods like Damocles, Litening, Sniper and Pantera offer over the Nitehawk?

Despite the recent introduction of the ATFLIR, is the Nitehawk still widely used by USN
F-18s? And what about RCAF and RAAF F-A18A squadrons? Thank you.

Su-27 in USA!

Haavarla — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:41:44 GMT

Here is an update on those two Su-27UB from Pride Aircraft.

Sukhoi Su-27UB Flanker aircraft performs engine run-ups and afterburner checks in September 2009.

Holy sh*t!
Turn up the speakers on this one:D

It's almost like i'm standing next to the aircraft.

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9By6bPn3DM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df3vW5HsPlc&NR=1...

Thanks

FX impact on the MMRCA?

Crusader2000 — Thu, 22 Oct 2009 21:35:12 GMT

Will the winner of Brazils FX Contest. Have any impact on India's selection for the MMRCA?

Need help with proper terminology

story — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:11:25 GMT

In a section of a book I'm working on, two very inexperienced pilots try to turn their fighter jets (F-16's . . . or something comparable) around to take a second pass at a ground target. They're flying through a lightly populated area with some high buildings, so the mistakes they make don't have to be ones that would put down the aircraft completely . . . it could simply be a mistake that ends up heading one (or both) into a building face.

What possible things (plural) might they have done to lose control in a sharp turn, and what would be the result to the plane?

I'm very interested in the right terms involved as their planes fail: ailerons, fairings, flaps, spoilers, etc.. These types of specifics will help me avoid generic lines like, "one pilot tried to turn to fast and lost control." Blah.

TIA for any replies!
~john

PS: I know it's a novice question, but the book is one which covers a lot of areas (physics, biology, philosophy, aviation, etc.) And I need to consult experts when I have questions--since the experts are the ones who will provide not only the right info, but the right "slang" -- since the words I choose are important, too.

JASDF Mix?

Crusader2000 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:10:17 GMT

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

JASDF Mix?

Crusader2000 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:02:53 GMT

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

PAKFA and plasma stealth

Kevin123 — Fri, 09 Oct 2009 19:05:22 GMT

Will the latest Russian PAKFA fighter use plasma stealth in its design? If yes then it means the Russians went completely the other way then Americans trying to make their aircraft invisible. The question is plasma stealth really works?

Even More MKIs?

Feanor — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 21:11:31 GMT

Just ran into an ARMS-TASS article claiming that India wants another 50 MKIs on top of the 230 currently agreed upon.

��-��

Is this a mistake? A hoax? Or is this serious? If it is, what would those MKIs replace?

off-topic Fedex lighting configuration ?

jhh — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 17:30:16 GMT

I'm not terribly familiar with aircraft types.

I'm curious if the lighting configuration on this fedex plane is typical ?

http://www.speakeasy.org/~jhhcic/pic...ndsbeforeB.JPG

thanks

jack

ADV Tornado

Crusader2000 — Sat, 03 Oct 2009 14:41:22 GMT

Does anybody believe the UK could find a export customer for its secondhand ADV Tornado's? If, so what country would be the likely buyer???