XM-25 "Punisher" Battle Proven

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
A new Army weapon designed to target the enemy hiding behind barriers is being affectionately called "The Punisher" by Soldiers fighting in Afghanistan.

And by all accounts, the futuristic XM-25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement System has been quite a rude surprise for the bad guys.

"I don't know what we're eventually going to call this product, but it seems to be game changing," said the commander of the Army's Program Executive Office Soldier, Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, during a Feb. 2 briefing with reporters at the Pentagon. "You no longer can shoot at American forces and hide behind something. We're going to reach out and touch you."

After years of XM-25 development, last fall the 101st Airborne submitted an urgent request to field the weapon for troops on patrol in Afghanistan. In response the Army took the five weapons it had been testing at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, Md., added 1,000 hand-made explosive rounds and shipped them to the war zone in October of 2010.

On arrival the XM-25 gave infantry squads the capability to precisely target bad guys hiding behind walls, in irrigation ditches, or among rocky escarpments. The Heckler & Koch-made XM-25 pairs a barrel-mounted targeting computer and a 25mm programmable air-bursting round that's fed precise range information just before being fired. A Soldier can simply push a button to range an enemy firing position, dial in one more meter, and the round will explode precisely where the bad guy is sitting.

"I had one lieutenant tell me that normally these engagements take us 15 or 20 minutes to get through, [but it's] several minutes when the XM-25 is involved. It's that quick," said the Army's top weapons buyer, Col. Doug Tamilio. "One major told me every time the XM-25 was involved in engaging enemy positions, firing stopped immediately."

So far the still-experimental XM-25 has stood up to the harsh combat environment of Afghanistan with "no maintenance issues," Tamilio said.

"To me that means we've got the ruggedness part of it right," he said.
Link: Punisher Gives Enemy No Place to Hide

It seems OICW program has finally paid off, at least partially. One of the issues I predict would be the limitation of the 25mm grenade round. It certainly seems to perform well against Taliban insurgents. However, militants in A-Stan are not known to wear protective gears as regular armies. I suspect they might need to increase the size of the warhead to make it more effective against armored targets. Of course, that brings the problem of added weight.
 
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Tomte47

New Member
I dont think the size of the round is a problem, no soldier goes to battle in full body armor, you typically have a west and a helmet which may save your life if one of these explodes nearby but with every unprotected bodypart full of shrapnel you aint just gonna continue on fighting...
 

dumpster4

New Member
According to:

https://www.sofmag.com/xm109-vs-xm25/

"The XM25 Counter Defilade Target Engagement (CDTE) System, better known as
the Punisher, dominated during field tests in Afghanistan – in some cases, ending
firefights very quickly. However, it has been caught in a budgetary limbo. However,
Barrett Rifles may be introducing a contender of its own."

"Like the XM25, the XM109 is capable of firing air-burst munitions. The more
powerful 25x59mm rounds can effectively take out targets two kilometers away.
The XM25 is lethal out to 550 yards – about 25% of the range of the XM109."

==============================

Since the XM25 was so effective in Afghanistan, how did it end up in budgetary
limbo?

Was the Army waiting for the XM109 so that they could run a competition
between the two?

The longer range of the XM109 sounds appealing, but I wonder how much recoil
it produces?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The longer range of the XM109 sounds appealing, but I wonder how much recoil
it produces?

all recoil can be managed - its a design issue.

I've tested czech 20mm AA weapons converted to man portable AP weapons. recoil was manageable on them and they were using fully packed rounds
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
Since the XM25 was so effective in Afghanistan, how did it end up in budgetary
limbo?

Was the Army waiting for the XM109 so that they could run a competition
between the two?

The longer range of the XM109 sounds appealing, but I wonder how much recoil
it produces?
No, the Army has never considered a competition between the XM25 and the XM109

The XM109 is not an Army program, it's a private venture by Barrett Firearms.

The XM109 is reported to weigh 33.2 lb (15.1 kg) while the XM25 weighs 14 lb (6.4 kg). Obviously the XM109 would hardly be considered as an option for an infantry squad/platoon. Even the XM25's utility has been questioned due to it's (lower) weight.

Could it ever be procured as a niche weapons system by various militaries? Sure, anything could happen, but it's ammunition is, and will continue to be rather expensive and in very low supply. As the program the ammunition was developed for, the XM307 Advanced Crew Served Weapon, was canceled eight years ago.

Thought for the future: Take anything written in Soldier of Fortune magazine with a grain of salt. It may bring interesting things to your attention, but they are still nothing more than a "Fan Boy" periodical.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Thought for the future: Take anything written in Soldier of Fortune magazine with a grain of salt. It may bring interesting things to your attention, but they are still nothing more than a "Fan Boy" periodical.
they specialise in clickbair
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
No, the Army has never considered a competition between the XM25 and the XM109

The XM109 is not an Army program, it's a private venture by Barrett Firearms.

The XM109 is reported to weigh 33.2 lb (15.1 kg) while the XM25 weighs 14 lb (6.4 kg). Obviously the XM109 would hardly be considered as an option for an infantry squad/platoon. Even the XM25's utility has been questioned due to it's (lower) weight.

Could it ever be procured as a niche weapons system by various militaries? Sure, anything could happen, but it's ammunition is, and will continue to be rather expensive and in very low supply. As the program the ammunition was developed for, the XM307 Advanced Crew Served Weapon, was canceled eight years ago.

Thought for the future: Take anything written in Soldier of Fortune magazine with a grain of salt. It may bring interesting things to your attention, but they are still nothing more than a "Fan Boy" periodical.
Agreed


The XM25 is still in "X" status and has not been officially fielded to any brigade teams after its initial testing in Afghanistan in 2012-13. The Rangers thought is was too heavy for what it offered The decision is still out but LRIP I was on schedule for this year with fielding late 2015 early 2016

Interesting to note, the PLA made an immediate copy, the ZH-05, and is filled with PLA marines and SOF

The ROKs use their own version as well
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
Agreed


The XM25 is still in "X" status and has not been officially fielded to any brigade teams after its initial testing in Afghanistan in 2012-13. The Rangers thought is was too heavy for what it offered The decision is still out but LRIP I was on schedule for this year with fielding late 2015 early 2016

Interesting to note, the PLA made an immediate copy, the ZH-05, and is filled with PLA marines and SOF

The ROKs use their own version as well
The ZH-05 system includes an assault rifle combined with a single shot grenade launcher, that fires a pre-programmed 20mm round.
So, it is hardly what would be called a copy of the XM25
It would be more accurate to refer to it as a cheap imitation of the South Korean K11 DAW
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
The ZH-05 system includes an assault rifle combined with a single shot grenade launcher, that fires a pre-programmed 20mm round.
So, it is hardly what would be called a copy of the XM25
It would be more accurate to refer to it as a cheap imitation of the South Korean K11 DAW
True, perhaps a modernized M203
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
I remember reading about the 109 a while ago on wiki and other pages and thought it might be a better option. the XM25 got a lot of positive press from the army post the deployment in afghanistan, but i read that there were concerns about its limited range (750m approx) and the limited lethality of the 25mm round (say compared to the 40mm). Evereyone seemed excited that it was able to stop firefight in a couple of minutes with a couple of aimed shots, but apparently it didn't actually kill that many people. Again, this is just gleaned from what i've read on the internet...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I remember reading about the 109 a while ago on wiki and other pages and thought it might be a better option. the XM25 got a lot of positive press from the army post the deployment in afghanistan, but i read that there were concerns about its limited range (750m approx) and the limited lethality of the 25mm round (say compared to the 40mm). Evereyone seemed excited that it was able to stop firefight in a couple of minutes with a couple of aimed shots, but apparently it didn't actually kill that many people. Again, this is just gleaned from what i've read on the internet...
you don't need to up the calibre to get effect - 10 years ago I was testing retro fitted heads onto .50 cal as well as 20mm.rounds.. eg RUAG make heads to order. As did the Sth Africans


Its easy to be seduced by the mantra that bigger is better, but it really gets down to the tactical situation and reqs.

eg a .177 subsonic can be a far better sniper round than a 7.62 in given scenarios
 

kiwi in exile

Active Member
you don't need to up the calibre to get effect - 10 years ago I was testing retro fitted heads onto .50 cal as well as 20mm.rounds.. eg RUAG make heads to order. As did the Sth Africans


Its easy to be seduced by the mantra that bigger is better, but it really gets down to the tactical situation and reqs.

eg a .177 subsonic can be a far better sniper round than a 7.62 in given scenarios
Sounds like you have had a lot of fun with heavy weapons :soldier

I understand the argument that a well placed 25mm shot is better that a less accurate 40mm shot, and bigger is not neccessarily better. As I have no expereinec with the XM25 or 40mm, I'm a fence sitter, merely reporting what I've read in similar forums in response to US army PR.

Kinda think that XM25 would work better in urban setting than afghanistan.
 

Ranger25

Active Member
Staff member
Sounds like you have had a lot of fun with heavy weapons :soldier

I understand the argument that a well placed 25mm shot is better that a less accurate 40mm shot, and bigger is not neccessarily better. As I have no expereinec with the XM25 or 40mm, I'm a fence sitter, merely reporting what I've read in similar forums in response to US army PR.

Kinda think that XM25 would work better in urban setting than afghanistan.
agreed. The XM25 will have a place in US MTO&E but they just need to refine, as they are, the final version fielded

The LRIP lot one is for 1100 units and to be completed end of 2015




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