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A 'Uzigrip' assault rifle in 5 mm/35 SMc: Possible?

This is a discussion on A 'Uzigrip' assault rifle in 5 mm/35 SMc: Possible? within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; After hearing all these 'arguments' about should we have Bullpups or Conventional 'FrontMag's, I came up with an idea to ...


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Old May 9th, 2008   #1
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A 'Uzigrip' assault rifle in 5mm/35 SMc: Possible?

After hearing all these 'arguments' about should we have Bullpups or Conventional 'FrontMag's, I came up with an idea to bring out a 'Uzigrip' rifle like the Interdynamics MKS/TKB-022/Berreta Cx4/MAG-7 becouse this could make the debate even, But in a round with the 7.62NATO as the parent cartridge but 'shortened' to 40mm/below and 'necked down' to 5.56 to retain the same ballistics as the existing 5.56x45 round.

This type of round will sort out the ergonomic problems of the Interdynamics MKS. The pistol grip/mag insert will be close to that of a Desert Eagle pistol and will also be very quick to reload during a crossfire.

The closest calibre i found to what i described is the 5 mm/35 SMc or the slightly smaller .17/23 SMc. Can these round be ideal for military purposes?
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Last edited by Cutaway; May 9th, 2008 at 04:27 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2008   #2
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That falls into the cathegory of personal defence weapon PDW, i like the mp7
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Old May 10th, 2008   #3
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I don't see it replacing the 7.62 or 5.56 for Assault rifles.
Maybe for SMGs, etc.
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Old May 10th, 2008   #4
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The closest calibre i found to what i described is the 5 mm/35 SMc

The issue is always mission requirements - eg stopping power. so can 5mm stop as well as a 45cal etc....

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or the slightly smaller .17/23 SMc. Can these round be ideal for military purposes?
.177's have been used as target and sniper weapons. the pref for sniper weapons again though, is stopping power (soft) or mobility kill/dislocation (hard, anti-materiele etc...)
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Old May 11th, 2008   #5
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This type of round will sort out the ergonomic problems of the Interdynamics MKS. The pistol grip/mag insert will be close to that of a Desert Eagle pistol .......
Others may differ, but I find the DE.44 grip to be longer - front to back - than is comfortable, and I have larger than average hands. Might present a problem for any service drawing personnel from the average population.

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Old June 8th, 2009   #6
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Wink

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The issue is always mission requirements - eg stopping power. so can 5mm stop as well as a 45cal etc....
the 5mm has 1,564 ft/lb of kinetic energy at 4,250 ft/s
the .45 ACP has 518 ft/lb of kinetic energy at 1,080 ft/s
the 9mm NATO has 519 ft/lb of kinetic energy at 1,430 ft/s

the 5mm hits with just over 3 times as much kinetic energy at just under 4 times the speed. you tell me which one you think hits harder.

the design of the 5mm enables it to fly farther and retain its kinetic energy for longer distances as well as allowing the capability to penetrate body armor.

even the 9mm "NATO" (an overpressure version of the parabellum), standard in NATO 9mm rounds hits harder than the .45 ACP and flies almost 1 and a half times as fast.

Admin. Excessive use of icons is to be avoided on here. It is also good form to quote multiple/single sources when quoting material.

You do appear to have missed the point that my comments were also rhetorical and not literal - hence the hanging sentence

Last edited by gf0012-aust; June 10th, 2009 at 11:48 PM.
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Old June 8th, 2009   #7
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Now you're getting into the territory of the Swedish CBJ-MS, categorized as a PDW but with ballistics approaching that of an assault rifle round.

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Old June 8th, 2009   #8
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I think what Cutaway's argument is can the 5.56x45mm NATO round be 'repackaged' in a casing with the same bullet and the same level of propellant (for the same muzzle velocity) so as to be a short in overall length cartridge to fit into a pistol grip magazine like the Uzi (this configuration originated in the Czech Sa.23 designed by Vaclav Holek).

Overall length of the cartridge would have to be under 35mm without oversizing the grip making the weapon unpractical. The best way of doing this would be by a cased telescoped ammunition (CTA) round. CTA rounds allow for high width to length rations and thanks to the cylinder shape do not need a taper for reliable feeding (a problem with squat rounds).

Such a 5.56mm CTA round would have a diameter of 12mm and a length of 35mm to provide enough volume for the bullet and propellant of a conventional 5.56x45mm round. Rounds would be angled in the magazine like in 7.62x25mm and 4.6x30mm magazines. Using CTA ammunition the casing could have angled edges to allow for improved feed in an angled round magazine. You could fit around 25 5.56x35mm CTA rounds in the same length of magazine as a 32 round 7.62x25mm magazine.
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Old June 10th, 2009   #9
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I think what Cutaway's argument is can the 5.56x45mm NATO round be 'repackaged' in a casing with the same bullet and the same level of propellant (for the same muzzle velocity) so as to be a short in overall length cartridge to fit into a pistol grip magazine like the Uzi (this configuration originated in the Czech Sa.23 designed by Vaclav Holek).

Overall length of the cartridge would have to be under 35mm without oversizing the grip making the weapon unpractical. The best way of doing this would be by a cased telescoped ammunition (CTA) round. CTA rounds allow for high width to length rations and thanks to the cylinder shape do not need a taper for reliable feeding (a problem with squat rounds).

Such a 5.56mm CTA round would have a diameter of 12mm and a length of 35mm to provide enough volume for the bullet and propellant of a conventional 5.56x45mm round. Rounds would be angled in the magazine like in 7.62x25mm and 4.6x30mm magazines. Using CTA ammunition the casing could have angled edges to allow for improved feed in an angled round magazine. You could fit around 25 5.56x35mm CTA rounds in the same length of magazine as a 32 round 7.62x25mm magazine.
Well AAI's LSAT Advanced Combat Rifle will use either CTA or caseless ammo so you never know what the final layout of the weapon will be.

-----JT-----

Last edited by Vajt; June 10th, 2009 at 05:01 PM.
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Old June 11th, 2009   #10
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Admin.

You do appear to have missed the point that my comments were also rhetorical and not literal - hence the hanging sentence
If your comments were rhetorical give me some way of knowing that. It looked like you were making a statement which I was contradicting.

Last edited by modularassaultc; June 11th, 2009 at 08:45 AM.
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