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Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

This is a discussion on Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts A Ukrainian plant is ready to supply Pakistan with parts for ...


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Old August 18th, 2005   #1
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Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts
A Ukrainian plant is ready to supply Pakistan with parts for main battle tanks and can assist Libya in upgrading its Soviet-built armoured vehicles, a report said today.

Malyshev plant can provide Pakistan with engines, transmissions and weapons for al-Khalid tanks, private TV5 quoted Plant Director Henadiy Hrytsenko as saying. dt

Ukraine is a key partner in a joint venture that also includes China and Pakistan to build al-Khalid tanks, also known as MBT-2000s.

The tanks are fitted with 125mm smooth bore guns that can also fire missiles, according to defense and space web site globalsecurity.org. Ukrainian tank engines can withstand hot climates and desert conditions. Each tank weighs 46 tons and carries a three-member crew.

The Malyshev plant also recently announced plans to sell a number of T-80u tanks to Pakistan, whose armed forces already have large numbers of Russian or Ukrainian-built T-72, T-80 and T-80u tanks; MiG fighter jets and Mi helicopters.

Hrytsenko also was quoted as saying that Ukraine could help Libya renovate its soviet-built armored vehicles. "There are more than 3,000 Soviet-built armoured vehicles in that country, and they all badly need an upgrade and repairs," Hrytsenko said following talks with a Libyan military delegation yesterday.

After the 1991 Soviet collapse, Ukraine has inherited huge weapons arsenals and a sizable military industry.

Source: DefebceTalk News

Link: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publ...cle_002969.php
One thing I havent under stood so far. Why hasnt Pakistan gone for ToT for engine. If Al-Khalid has to be realy called Indeginious & move away from T-90MBTs (even though it would remain its base) than I think Pakistan should take the ToT for these engines.

Anyways its good that Ukrain put the plant up properly & the proper work on Al-Khalid can continue flawlessly.
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Old August 18th, 2005   #2
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One thing I havent under stood so far. Why hasnt Pakistan gone for ToT for engine. If Al-Khalid has to be realy called Indeginious & move away from T-90MBTs (even though it would remain its base) than I think Pakistan should take the ToT for these engines.

Anyways its good that Ukrain put the plant up properly & the proper work on Al-Khalid can continue flawlessly.
Hey mate this is the world where u get things with money to get (TOT) pak have to pay dam amount of money dont u unstand it is not so easy as u think .
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Old August 18th, 2005   #3
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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Hey mate this is the world where u get things with money to get (TOT) pak have to pay dam amount of money dont u unstand it is not so easy as u think .
Money has not been the problem of the project. For some reason Pak has by passed the ToT just like we did with K-8, also for some reason we refused Ukrain's offer to buy 8 Su-27s for Aggressor Sqdns. We had earlier bought 8 MiG-29s (now 12 I think).

Seems like Ukrain feels it will lose its money & part in the project.
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Old August 18th, 2005   #4
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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Money has not been the problem of the project. For some reason Pak has by passed the ToT just like we did with K-8, also for some reason we refused Ukrain's offer to buy 8 Su-27s for Aggressor Sqdns. We had earlier bought 8 MiG-29s (now 12 I think).

Seems like Ukrain feels it will lose its money & part in the project.
To keep roling defence industry Ukrain have lot more to offer pak u r not from defence fid of pak so u cant be sure where there money was problem or not if money is not problem then pak is paning on any other MBT so pak dont want to vast it money.
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Old August 18th, 2005   #5
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

Dont worry got the answer from my uncle. There is no plant to build Tank Engine & no planning on building. Its cheaper to buy from Ukrain than go in to building fascility & training ppl at this moment. No idea abt the future.
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Old August 18th, 2005   #6
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Dont worry got the answer from my uncle. There is no plant to build Tank Engine & no planning on building. Its cheaper to buy from Ukrain than go in to building fascility & training ppl at this moment. No idea abt the future.

That's wat the money is matter. tnx mate u said right no plant to make tank engine and no plane to make them buy them it is cheap for both pak and ukrain.

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Old August 19th, 2005   #7
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

'starwarsworld', its not about the money! Its about cost effectiveness, efficiency and overall feasibility of the project of setting up a tank-engine production facility and/or for K-8s for that matter. Money can be churned out without much problem as has alwayz been whenever there was a need by any branch of Pakistani forces.

In cases like this, the 'worthiness' of the project is more of an issue than the financial one which is not to say that financial factor does not apply but merely suggest that it is not the 'only' factor effecting the decision and pretty much not the biggest either.
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Old August 19th, 2005   #8
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

The Ukrainian engine are good, or supossed to be the best, but they seem very smokey. Is that normal with modern diesel battle tank engines? Are the Western European diesel ones as smokey?

As with regard to SABRE staing that Pakistan has 8-12 Mig 29's obtained from Ukraine. Is there credible evidence and pictures for these? They have never been hiighlighted in the past in any defence journals or airforce magazines I have come across. The only mention of MIg 29's was once highlighted under odd spot I think in the English Daily Mail in 1990 or so. These were Iraqi Mig 29's (apparently) that went over to Iran in during the first Gulf War and were now wearing Pakistani markings. As for using Mig 29's purely agressor role, wouldn't that be a waste in terms of power projection. If Pakistan is able to maintain twelve Mig 29's surely they can buy more and use them for air defence roles with the F7MG , F-16's and Rose 3 Mirages. I think Germany still operates about the same number of Mig 29's in frontline service does it not? SU27 that may be available could be used as command posts for vectoring in other fighters with the right radar, electronic jamming capabilities and combination of BVR missiles. I think in the past Pakistan wanted use their own electronics for Mirage 2000's so the SU27 can easily accomodate a Pakistan specific electronic warfare suite particularly as it has alarge rodome and plenty of pylons. The range is also important.
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Old August 19th, 2005   #9
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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As with regard to SABRE staing that Pakistan has 8-12 Mig 29's obtained from Ukraine. Is there credible evidence and pictures for these? They have never been hiighlighted in the past in any defence journals or airforce magazines I have come across. The only mention of MIg 29's was once highlighted under odd spot I think in the English Daily Mail in 1990 or so. These were Iraqi Mig 29's (apparently) that went over to Iran in during the first Gulf War and were now wearing Pakistani markings. As for using Mig 29's purely agressor role, wouldn't that be a waste in terms of power projection. If Pakistan is able to maintain twelve Mig 29's surely they can buy more and use them for air defence roles with the F7MG , F-16's and Rose 3 Mirages. I think Germany still operates about the same number of Mig 29's in frontline service does it not? SU27 that may be available could be used as command posts for vectoring in other fighters with the right radar, electronic jamming capabilities and combination of BVR missiles. I think in the past Pakistan wanted use their own electronics for Mirage 2000's so the SU27 can easily accomodate a Pakistan specific electronic warfare suite particularly as it has alarge rodome and plenty of pylons. The range is also important.
Pakistan does not want additional MiG-29s. PAC Kamra says its a headache when it comes to maintainance. Thats why the order for aggressor sqdn's MiG-29 never exceeded 12.

Pakistan decided to train its pilots on & against Su-27 in Ukrain instead of bringing Su-27 here but some say two are stationed at Sargodah with Aggressors along with MiG-29s. All of them are stripped of their real time battle capabilities.

Germany passed over all of its MiG-29s to polland. I think GF said for only $1 each not so sure though.

Anyways we are going out of bound. Lets Talk Tank.

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The Ukrainian engine are good, or supossed to be the best, but they seem very smokey. Is that normal with modern diesel battle tank engines? Are the Western European diesel ones as smokey?
China is doing research on new Diesel powered tank engine. Its suppose to have low or no smoke. I think Ukranians are involved & since the engine is considered to be fitted on Al-Khalid aswell than Pakistan might also be involved if not technicaly than financialy.
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Old August 19th, 2005   #10
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

Has Pakistan assured the smooth avalibility of tank engines during the period of war i think the ToT would be better but Pakistan would be thinking first get some engines (for confidence building) and then apply for ToT

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Old August 19th, 2005   #11
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Pakistan decided to train its pilots on & against Su-27 in Ukrain instead of bringing Su-27 here but some say two are stationed at Sargodah with Aggressors along with MiG-29s. All of them are stripped of their real time battle capabilities.

China is doing research on new Diesel powered tank engine. Its suppose to have low or no smoke. I think Ukranians are involved & since the engine is considered to be fitted on Al-Khalid aswell than Pakistan might also be involved if not technicaly than financialy.
I am really surprised how Pakistan got hand on Su-27 !!
It is really good move by PAF to get hands on experience with Su-27 knowing its capabilities and limitations. I hope they are eyeing hornets to get trained 2 !!
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Old August 19th, 2005   #12
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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I am really surprised how Pakistan got hand on Su-27 !!
It is really good move by PAF to get hands on experience with Su-27 knowing its capabilities and limitations. I hope they are eyeing hornets to get trained 2 !!
Well Ukrainians are kind of an allie now specialy when it comes to defence. They dint have 2nd thoughts on providing us MiG-29s & allowing boys to fly Su-27s.
I think some Pakistanis have F-18 training. Got it from some east asian country dont recall malaysia or what. But now F-18s are in Pakistan unlike MiG-29 & may be su-27.

Lets back to tanks. Ukrain is helping alot in defence specialy in upgrading ground forces of Pakistan thats why they are more busy in tanks with us than fighters.
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Old August 20th, 2005   #13
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

Hello,

TOT is not the best policy on every purchase. Once you transfer the tech then your options are limited to that equipment. Making a diesl engine is not easy----and making a high tech diesl engine with all its parts is very difficult.

I believe that making a nuclear weapon is easier than than successfully making all the components of an internal combustion high quality diesel engine.
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Old August 20th, 2005   #14
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

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Hello,

TOT is not the best policy on every purchase. Once you transfer the tech then your options are limited to that equipment. Making a diesl engine is not easy----and making a high tech diesl engine with all its parts is very difficult.

I believe that making a nuclear weapon is easier than than successfully making all the components of an internal combustion high quality diesel engine.
You are comparing a nuke with a diesel tank engine is this a right comparison
then countries which are making engines of tanks would have tried to make a nuke caz a tank can be destroyed by a single missile,bomb etc and a nuke can destroy a city so more advantages in the nuke
If a country needs too many engines i think more then 500 then it must try to make them indignously with ToT.Pakistan was buying its guns rifles and other kind of army related things from other countries but after having its own 14-15 factories in Wah,HVN and Karachi now we are also in exports making $100m.When Pakistan started this those countries (from where we were buying the army realted guns etc ) said that you would have to develop a huge complex this will involve building expances labour power technology and many many other things related to this but Pakistan took step towards indignicity and now no need to look towards others specially during the war (SABRE to what extend i am right )
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Old August 20th, 2005   #15
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Re: Ukraine plant ready to supply Pakistan with tank parts

this is the closest i could find on PAF having MiG-29s. the article just hints it.

PIR ARMS CONTROL LETTERS
LETTER OF SEPTEMBER 1999

In the last few years there have emerged new trends in the area of arms export from Russia and, in particular, re-export of some Russian-made arms and military equipment through other states (mostly FSU) to the Middle East, South Asia and East Asia.

To start with, the Pakistani authorities continue their persistent efforts to establish military-technical cooperation with the CIS states, above all, with Russia and Ukraine. The relationship inside this triangle is far from being ideal but there are all conditions for their harmonization.

When official sources announced in 1996 the signature of a contract between Ukraine and Pakistan on the shipment of 320 tanks, the Russian mass media primarily condemned this deal as a Ukrainian attempt to take a Russian piece of pie. In Russia, this deal was called treacherous. Moscow resented that although 80% of the T-80UD tanks assemblies were made in Russia, Kiev allegedly refused to share the profits. Russia even tried to hamper the deal; the Government denied the Malyshev plant (Ukraine) supplies for artillery systems and electronics. However, these attempts failed.

Thus, the Ukrainian-Pakistani deal has become an apple of discord for Russia and Ukraine, although in different circumstances it might have been an example of subtle export policy of the two states.

Russia still adheres to a political decision that it won't sell weapons to Pakistan in order to not damage its relations with India – Russia’s strategic partner in the region. If it hadn't been Kiev, Pakistan would have acquired the tanks in France. Kiev actually played into Russia’s hands since $150 million out of the $650 million deal went to Russian enterprises under inter-firm cooperation agreements.

Moreover, besides hard currency benefits in payments for Russian spare parts and assemblies for the Ukrainian tanks, Russia got another big bonus - to maintain balance in tanks India had to urgently purchase more advanced models. Upon arrival in Pakistan, most of the Ukrainian tanks were deployed in regions near the Indian border. That's why the Indian military leadership intends to arm five tank regiments with Russian T-90S, making them the core of the Army corps situated in the plain regions of the India-Pakistan border, which passes through the Tar dessert. And now Moscow is ready to celebrate a new deal with India by shipping a large lot of T-90S tanks.

That's how the declared Russian-Ukrainian tank war turned out to be mutually beneficial for both parties. And Russian benefits are not limited to financial means, for Russia has a greater opportunity to influence the situation in the region.

Another problem for Pakistan is the necessity to acquire new fourth generation aircraft. It could be the Russian MIG-29 or Su-27, or some French or Chinese aircraft. However, the French aircraft are too expensive, and Chinese planes are of low quality.
http://www.pircenter.org/board/article.php3?artid=103

Hypothetically, we may presume that Pakistan will suddenly purchase the aircraft from Ukraine or Byelorussia. It is known that although aircraft production is situated in Russia, both states possess the SU-27 (Ukraine - 66; Byelorussia - 26) and the MIG-29 (144 and 82 respectively). Former Soviet republics enjoy the right to sell some outdated military equipment and to purchase modern models (naturally, in Russia at a good price on the basis of good-neighbor relations and mutual respect). These conditions may encourage even Kazakhstan to arm Pakistan. It is likely that some of the aircraft will not be second-hand but brand new. It will be difficult, nonetheless, to verify the truth.

__________________________________________________ _____________

for the rest of the article click on link. anyway the article also talks about tanks so lets carry on talking about tanks and the general ukrainian equipment given to PK.

Last edited by WebMaster; August 20th, 2005 at 01:09 PM. Reason: Format the post, removed unrelated junk.
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