This is a discussion on U.S. Army to build new .50 caliber MG. within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; The U.S. Department of Defense has given General Dynamics $9 million to try and develop a lightweight .50 caliber (12.7mm) ...
The U.S. Department of Defense has given General Dynamics $9 million to try and develop a lightweight .50 caliber (12.7mm) machine-gun (to be known as LW50MG for the moment) that works. An earlier attempt (the XM312) by General Dynamics did not work out so well. The LW50MG will ignore the 25mm business. If the development is successful then it should enter service in 2012.
I just hope the new weapon will have a greater rate of fire of at least 550-600 RPM that the M2 has. The original XM312 had only a 260 RPM rate of fire and that is the biggest reason why it did not work out. Lets hope they can get things right this time.
When you develop something, there is chance you can come up with something very good but there is also a chance you can fail completely as proven in the past.
Singapore already has an excellent, proven (20 yr-old) .50 HMG design that is already being used by many countries.
The CIS 50. It has replaced nearly ALL M2 Brownings in Singapore on land, sea and air.
It is lightweight and dual feed - meaning you can feed 2 different types of ammo and switch between the 2 with the flick of a switch.
Its QCB does not need head space adjustment etc...
So why waste time and money when the US can buy/build this and have the new guns by next year instead of waiting another half decade or more?
U.S. Army Tests Prototype .50-Cal. Gun
By kris osborn
Published: 13 May
The U.S. Army Soldier Weapons Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., has ordered three prototypes of a first-of-its-kind lightweight .50-cal. machine gun that fires with less recoil force and can be carried more easily in rough terrain than the Army's current .50-caliber weapon, service officials said.
Made by General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products, the 38-pound gun weighs less than half as much as the 82-pound M2 and incorporates a host of technologies designed to improve accuracy. (General Dynamics) Dubbed LW for lightweight and made by General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products (ATP), the 38-pound gun weighs less than half as much as the 82-pound M2 and incorporates a host of technologies designed to improve accuracy.
"The gun uses what is called impulse averaging, so it doesn't come to a hard stop. With an M2 today, you would have to take your eye away from the sight because it would shake," said U.S. Army Col. Carl Lipsit, program manager for soldier weapons at Picatinny.
For several years now, the Army has been working with industry in an effort to develop lightweight .50-caliber weapons. The LW .50-cal. is intended to be mounted quickly on light vehicles' Common Remote Weapons Station, a turret controlled remotely by soldiers with a joystick and video screen. The M2, a combat fixture for 70 years, will not be replaced, just added to, said Lt. Col. Mike Ascura, product manager for crew-served weapons at Picatinny.
"We've done a market survey of the arms manufacturers to look and see what is available. It will still be a crew-served weapon with a tripod. It will be man-portable," he said.
The Army has ordered three prototypes from GD ATP for testing, which could lead to orders for thousands of the weapons.
The LW 50 has 250 pounds of recoil force, one-quarter that of the M2; has fixed head space and timing; and fires 200 to 300 rounds per minute up to 2,000 meters, Army and GD ATP officials said.
The gun was recently test-fired by Special Operations Forces (SOCom).
"We conducted a 10,000-round early user assessment with SOCom forces at a test center in Yakima, Wash.," said Bob Cavoretto, GD ATP's senior program manager for advanced crew-served weapons.
In coming months, SOCom and Army evaluators will test the three prototype LW 50s at a GD ATP facility. The company will refine the design to incorporate lessons and customer input.
"This contract gets us started to develop a weapon design. The intent is to submit a follow-on proposal which would go in during the early quarter of next year to support government development," he said.
More prototype testing is slated for Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., by 2010.
Low-rate initial production is scheduled for 2011, Ascura said.
When you develop something, there is chance you can come up with something very good but there is also a chance you can fail completely as proven in the past.
Singapore already has an excellent, proven (20 yr-old) .50 HMG design that is already being used by many countries.
The CIS 50. It has replaced nearly ALL M2 Brownings in Singapore on land, sea and air.
It is lightweight and dual feed - meaning you can feed 2 different types of ammo and switch between the 2 with the flick of a switch.
Its QCB does not need head space adjustment etc...
So why waste time and money when the US can buy/build this and have the new guns by next year instead of waiting another half decade or more?
The same problem like with every country which has a countable expertise and industry (Or wants to get this).
The syndrome not to buy good off the shelf solutions is strong in such countries.
The same problem like with every country which has a countable expertise and industry (Or wants to get this).
The syndrome not to buy good off the shelf solutions is strong in such countries.
Of course, just that lately US seem to have more success with big ticket items and the small arms area had met with more failures than success like caseless, OICW, XM8, XM312 etc etc etc. Terrific waste of time and money.
I wouldnt consider the XM8 a failure at all. It performed 600% better on the sand test than the M4.
But about the .50 machine gun, what i cant understand is how the hell is being so hard to create a new...machine gun. I mean, its a machine gun that needs to be better than another machine gun created almost 90 years ago! They would just need to take a look on the Singapore CIS and other recent .50 MGs and voilá!
I wouldnt consider the XM8 a failure at all. It performed 600% better on the sand test than the M4.
But about the .50 machine gun, what i cant understand is how the hell is being so hard to create a new...machine gun. I mean, its a machine gun that needs to be better than another machine gun created almost 90 years ago! They would just need to take a look on the Singapore CIS and other recent .50 MGs and voilá!
I wish I could answer your question but I can't. The XM312 failed but the Army still wants to try again but what the hell do they expect to get out of this?
If the new LW50MG only has a rate of fire of 200-300 rounds per minute like the failed XM312 did then they will just get the same results as last time so why would they wast their time and money on a new weapon that is no different than the previous XM312.
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"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
I wouldnt consider the XM8 a failure at all. It performed 600% better on the sand test than the M4.
XM8 wasn't adopted, this = money and time wasted = failure.
Even if the XM8 had succeeded in being adopted, they would've just spent a ton of money to re-invent a so-so assault rifle when there are at least a dozen existing rifles that could match it - including piston-drive M16s.
Same situation with this .50 calibre project. They are going to spend a ton of money and time, and then come up with something quite ordinary, if at all.
If they can make a very good .50 cal machine with 1920s technology then why can't they make an even better .50 cal machine gun with 21st century technology?
________________
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
XM8 wasn't adopted, this = money and time wasted = failure.
Even if the XM8 had succeeded in being adopted, they would've just spent a ton of money to re-invent a so-so assault rifle when there are at least a dozen existing rifles that could match it - including piston-drive M16s.
Same situation with this .50 calibre project. They are going to spend a ton of money and time, and then come up with something quite ordinary, if at all.
Reinvent a so-so rifle? I've never heard about the G36 being considered so-so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-15 Eagle
If they can make a very good .50 cal machine with 1920s technology then why can't they make an even better .50 cal machine gun with 21st century technology?
Because the current DoD acquisition system doesnt reward results, but lenghty and ineffective process. Funny how long ago, without the aid of super computers, they would design a fighter in one third or quarter of the time they took with the F-22.
The new LW50MG will only have a rate of fire of 230 rounds per minute. This weapon will be no different than the XM312 peace of crap. I don't get it the main reason why the XM312 is dead is because of the low rate of fire and it did not impress the troops. And now they want to waste their time and money AGAIN on the same kind of weapon that is not suitable to replace the M2. I'm almost speechless that if it did not work the first time then what makes GD think it will work this time??? Clearly the Army and GD did not learn their lesson and it looks like they will have to learn it again....
Sorry if I seam a little mad I just don't understand why their doing this when they can just make more M2s that is the best HMG in the world and not waste what little money the Army has on a weapon that does not work.
________________
"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
I don't get it the main reason why the XM312 is dead is because of the low rate of fire and it did not impress the troops. And now they want to waste their time and money AGAIN on the same kind of weapon that is not suitable to replace the M2. I'm almost speechless that if it did not work the first time then what makes GD think it will work this time??? Clearly the Army and GD did not learn their lesson and it looks like they will have to learn it again....
