This is a discussion on SCAR-L canceled! within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; In a surprising reversal that follows years of effort to design a one-of-a-kind commando rifle, the U.S. military's Special Operations ...
In a surprising reversal that follows years of effort to design a one-of-a-kind commando rifle, the U.S. military's Special Operations Command has abruptly decided to abandon the new SOCOM Combat Assault rifle – the "SCAR," as the rifle is commonly known – in favor of previously-fielded carbines.
Details provided exclusively to Military.com reveal that SOCOM, the Tampa-based command that oversees the training and equipping of SEALs, Green Berets, Air Force Special Tactics Teams and Marine SOC groups, will stop purchasing the 5.56 mm Mk-16 Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and might require all units who now have them to turn the new weapons back into the armory.
"The Mk-16 does not provide enough of a performance advantage over the M-4 to justify spending USSOCOM's limited … funds when competing priorities are taken into consideration," officials at USSOCOM said in an email response to questions from Military.com. "Currently, three of USSOCOM's four components receive the 5.56 mm M-4 from their parent service as a service common equipment item." (Naval Special Warfare Command is the only component that does not purchase its weapons with Navy funds.)
SOCOM said it will instead purchase additional Mk-17 variants that use the heavier 7.62 mm round, more Mk-13 Enhanced Grenade Launchers, and a newly-designated Mk-20 Sniper Support Rifle. (Industry observers say the Mk-20 is basically the Mk-17 with longer barrel and other sharpshooter enhancements.)
News of the cancellation of the Mk-16 variant of the SCAR is a major reversal for a command that spent six years and millions of dollars fielding a rifle specifically made for use by special operators. It was the first rifle since the M-16 that was competed, tested, and built from the ground up for the military.
This cancellation will certainly be poorly received by program advocates who touted the weapon's mission flexibility, better gas piston operating system, and performance in dusty environments as clear advantages over the current M-4.
Elaine Golladay, spokeswoman for FNH-USA, the weapon's manufacturer, declined to comment on the cancellation for this report.
Ironically, the company announced May 4 that it had passed the final hurdle from SOCOM's weapons buying office to go into full production and fielding of both the Mk-16 and Mk-17. It is unclear if SOCOM had made the decision to cancel their buy of the Mk-16 when FNH-USA issued that announcement.
Additionally, sources tell Military.com that SOCOM is leaning toward requiring that all Mk-16s currently fielded be returned as retaining limited numbers of them would complicate training and logistics support.
Officials with SOCOM said the services have so far fielded 850 Mk-16s and 750 Mk-17s throughout the SOF community, but did not specify which units got what rifle. As of last count, Military.com reported Army Rangers, most SEAL teams and Naval Special Warfare Combat-Craft Crewmen had received a mix of Mk-16s and 17s. Original program documents from SOCOM show a requirement of over 120,000 Mk-16s and nearly 40,000 Mk-17s.
It is unclear how many Mk-17 rifles SOCOM will buy. The command budgeted $3 million in fiscal 2011 to purchase SCAR variants and had an additional "unfunded requirement" of $1.6 million for SCAR.
"The Mk-17 fills the existing capability gap for a 7.62 mm rifle," officials said. "USSOCOM is in the process of determining the exact quantities of the Mk-17, Mk-13 and Mk-20 variants that will be purchased."
In all seriousness I was really putting my hopes on the SCAR to replace the 40 year old AR-15/M4/M16 design with something newer and better. Now that the SCAR has been canceled it looks like the US will use the same old AR-15 for the nest 40 years because someone in the DoD has contracts with Colt and is scared at the thought of a new rifle.
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"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
In all seriousness I was really putting my hopes on the SCAR to replace the 40 year old AR-15/M4/M16 design with something newer and better. Now that the SCAR has been canceled it looks like the US will use the same old AR-15 for the nest 40 years because someone in the DoD has contracts with Colt and is scared at the thought of a new rifle.
You have to look at the reason why SOCOM said they weren't willing to buy any more more of the SCAR-L, though - because it didn't offer a significant enough performance advantage over the M-4. Remember when you're talking about replacing ALL the M-4s and M-16s in American service, you're talking about an extremely large weapons buy, so why would they do this unless there was a significant advantage to the new rifle? SOCOM have been using the SCAR-L so they're in a position to know how effective it's been... I can see why it might seem frustrating but you have to consider the benefits of the new rifle versus the cost of such a large buy. Until there's some transformational changes in small arms technology, I can see why they'd consider the benefit of replacing all of their service rifles with another conventional 5.56mm AR to be pretty negligible (thinking in large-scale terms).
They're still planning on acquiring something like 5,000-6,000 of the SCAR-H, aren't they?
On a related note, why did they cancel the M8? It's very modular and although a copy cat of the GC36, would of been good to replace the M4's and M16's.
On a related note, why did they cancel the M8? It's very modular and although a copy cat of the GC36, would of been good to replace the M4's and M16's.
As Bonza stated, one has to consider the impact of a large (very large...) weapons purchase, relative to the advantages/improvements/etc of the new weapon compared to the old one.
If Weapon A is the current service weapon, and Weapon B is the "future" service weapon, carrying out a successful transition from A to B is more complicated, time consuming, and expensive than simply ordered nn examples of Weapon B to replace nn examples of Weapon A.
For instance, a training system and schedule has to be established to not allow train new recruit intakes on the new weapon, it will also have to transition current personnel onto the new weapon as well. That can be an even more difficult and time consuming task given that active duty personnel are already on duty, conducting their respective MOS tasks. In order for them to receive the required training and tested for qualification, they need to be freed from their normal duty commitments for however long it would take to conduct the transition training in operating and maintaining the new weapon. Further, the training establishment would also need sufficient time to actually select and train the trainers sufficiently so that they can be sent out to teach other personnel. Add onto that, while the weapons are being transitioned, an entire logistical support system needs to be formed to support the new weapon, providing for maintenance, repair and replacement of faulty weapons in addition with continued ongoing support of the current service weapon while it is being replaced.
To carry out a large-scale replacement of something as ubiquitious as the main service rifle, it is a very significant task. This in turn means that unless there is a significant advantage that the new weapon has over the previous/current design, it likely means such a change is more of a hassle and expense than it is worth.
-Cheers
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"I'm doing the same thing I do every night, Pinky..." comment from one lab mouse to another.
Funny how they spend billions on new jets and ships but they can't buy a new rifle to replace a 50 year old design.
Why are you repeating the same post you made just yesterday? You know the forum rules regarding post content and one liners. Instead of repeating yourself, why don't you address some of the points raised about the benefits versus the costs of the new rifle, about the problems of transitioning the logistics chain and deployed personnel etc? It's not as simple as just saying "this rifle is new and better and therefore we're going to buy hundreds of thousands of them", you know that.
Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes the allegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56 version of the SCAR rifle and reconfirms USSOCOM's decision to acquire the full FN SCAR family of weapons, including the 5.56mm rifle.
The FN SCAR family of weapons consists of the 5.56mm SCAR rifle, 7.62mm SCAR® rifle and 40mm LV Enhanced Grenade Launcher Module (respectively designated as MK 16, MK 17 and MK 13 by USSOCOM). These three components were developed by FN Herstal in close cooperation with USSOCOM and have each met all the operational and fielding tests required by the program. This resulted in the notification by USSOCOM last May that the full SCAR system entered into Milestone C phase, allowing production and deployment of the full range of SCAR weapons. The 5.56 version will be part of USSOCOM's inventory.
The choice between the 5.56 and the 7.62 caliber will be left to the discretion of each constitutive component of USSOCOM's Joint Command (e.g. Seals, Rangers, Army Special Forces, USMC, AFSOC) depending on their specific missions on today's battlefield.
Edit: I'm confused is the SCAR-L canceled or not?
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"The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing."
-- Albert Einstein
Last edited by F-15 Eagle; July 7th, 2010 at 06:17 PM.
The problem is that Army projects just don't get the kind of support in Congress that big ticket items like jet fighters, ships, etc have. They don't involve enough money, jobs, kickbacks, etc for congress to care much about.
M8 Buford AGS - cancled.
RAH-66 - cancled.
LOSAT - cancled.
EFOG-M - cancled.
Crusader - cancled.
SADARM - cancled.
BAT - canceled.
120mm STAFF - cancled.
XM8 Rifle - cancled
OICSW - cancled.
OICW - canceled.
Advanced Combat Rifle - canceled.
Every attempt to get a new handgun to replace the M9 Berretta - cancled.
FCS - canceled.
These are just the few programs I could pull off the top of my head.
SCAR-L canceled! 
What? SCAR-L now NOT canceled? 
