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RussianLand Forces Thread

This is a discussion on RussianLand Forces Thread within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Quite shocking to be honest, but Russia is currently testing two Italian Centauro fire support vehicles, carrying a 105mm main ...


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Old May 12th, 2012   #76
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Quite shocking to be honest, but Russia is currently testing two Italian Centauro fire support vehicles, carrying a 105mm main gun, 125mm main gun, and is waiting on the delivery of another Centauro with a 120mm gun, and a Freccia APC with a 30mm gun.

This would be a much larger purchase in terms of its effect on the Russian Army, then the Lynx MRAP. After all the Lynx is the light MRAP, that is meant to work together with the Taifun MRAPs, and Tigr armored cars. The Freccia on the other hand is a whole family of combat vehicles on the same chassis. It's a direct competitor to the Bumerang program being developed right now as the next family of medium wheeled vehicles for the Land Forces. It would mean that the already complex model for two types of medium brigades, one on wheeled vehicles, and one on tracked, would get even more complex with some wheeled brigades using domestic vehicles, and some using Italian imports. Finally there is the issue of time tables. None of these brigades would be re-armed instantly. So for a considerable period of time the land forces medium brigades would be of 7 different types" MT-LB, BTR-80/82, BMP-2, BMP-3, Freccia, Bumerang, and Kurganets-25 (the new medium tracked chassis). Light brigades are already a mess using Tigr armored cars, UAZ un-armored cars, and Lynx MRAPs (also currently testing Scorpion light armored cars). A very regrettable state of affairs considering that one of the original points of the reform was to reduce the multitude of different platforms in service to several main types.

There is some speculation that Centauro and Freccia are being lobbied by Kamaz, as a competitor to the GAZ development of the Bumerang, and that the current trials are not indicative of an actual intent to purchase the vehicles, but similar rumors surrounded the purchase of the Lynx MRAP, which was also originally a Kamaz project.

NEWSru.com ::
u_96: "
bmpd - Centauro
”енис œок€ƒˆин - Ÿ€икƒпили по‰ƒпа‚Œ
http://vz.ru/economy/2012/5/12/578510.html
http://lenta.ru/news/2012/05/12/centauro/

Also an update, what was reported as Tornado-G deliveries to South MD units was actually 2B26 Grad MLRS remounted on the Kamaz chassis. The Tornado-G is still undergoing state trials, with deliveries to start sometime this year.

bmpd -
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Old May 12th, 2012   #77
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The Centauro is the only selling part of it's family, the other vehicles are mostly only prototypes and the other ones that like the Freccia enter service do so only in Italy.
Russia has to open (and probably will open) their country for more imports of arms to get the best possible equipment they can afford for their money. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union the Russians did have only very few competition between their arms and vehicle manufacturers. It's good if they open up.
A completely different point is how probable it is that the Russians will buy the Italian Centauros (and Freccias). In case of the Lynx the Russian industry did not have a good competitor. The Centauro on the other hand is not alone and has to prove itself against the Bumerang project, older vehicles already in service, the Russian patriotism and against the Russian politics. I would doubt that it will enter service in the Russian Land Forces.
That the Freccia or other vehicles of this familty will be introduced in the Russian Army seems to be even more improbable IMO. If the Russians would open up their procurement to such a degree that they would like to prefer Freccia and Centauro above their own designs, then it seems to be possible that also other Western vehicle families could be tested - then the Freccia (and the Bumerang) would have to compete against vehicles like the AMV, Boxer or Pirhana family.
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Old May 15th, 2012   #78
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Haven't visited these forums for quite some time.

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I suppose it remains to be seen. I don't disagree with your assessment. To be honest I really wish they would show object 195 to the public. After all the project is no longer MoD funded, and UVZ is still supposedly completing the development in hopes of securing an export contract. It would certainly give us a very good idea of what to expect from the Armata.
I'd say it's highly unlikely, that government would agree to put Obj. 195 on export, due to various reasons. It's just too advanced (which also translates into being expensive). UVZ would be required to create a down-graded version of that vehicle, what Armata already will be, de-facto.

Remember, that the main reason for not putting Obj.195 into production was it's price combined with unreadiness of MIC to produce such complicated vehicle in large numbers, which required very large funds to upgrade production capabilities.
As a result it was decided that there's no need in a tank that requires such large investments into both industry and the tank itself.

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Do you know what the design philosophy for the MBT is? Tank v Tank combat? Infantry support? Will it be designed with urban combat as part of its mission parameters?
In addition to Feanor's answer - high level of autonomy is one of requirements for perspective MBT (both Obj. 195 and Armata). Crew should be able to stay in tank for prolonged period of time, without leaving it. (in the open unofficial sources - up to 2 days without leaving the vehicle).
This requirement is directly related to the capability to conduct operations in the hostile environment (irradiated, poisoned, infected, etc)
I would say it corresponds with the current Doctrine.
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Old May 15th, 2012   #79
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Originally Posted by Knjaz View Post
In addition to Feanor's answer - high level of autonomy is one of requirements for perspective MBT (both Obj. 195 and Armata). Crew should be able to stay in tank for prolonged period of time, without leaving it. (in the open unofficial sources - up to 2 days without leaving the vehicle).
This requirement is directly related to the capability to conduct operations in the hostile environment (irradiated, poisoned, infected, etc)
I would say it corresponds with the current Doctrine.
It'll be interesting if they come through on the full family of heavy tracked vehicles. The thing is that right now the Land Forces operate the following heavy tracked chassis:

Heavy APC (BMO-T)
Rocket-Flamethrower (TOS-1A)
Auto-loader for above (TZM)
MBT (T-72/T-80/T-90)
SP Arty 152mm (2S3, 2S19)
Bridge-layer (I forget the index)
Heavy SAM (S-300V)
Armored Recovery Vehicle (BREM-1)
Engineer Vehicle (IMR-2)

I think that's all. In addition they want a heavy IFV for the new heavy brigades. But so far the only vehicles announced on the new chassis are the IFV, the tank, and the ARV. Which to me seems problematic, because as of right now the TZM and TOS-1A are still in production with T-72B chassis no less (T-90A for Kazakhstan). The BREM-1M is also still in production, as is the BMO-T. So they won't be leaving service any time soon. And there isn't a replacement for the Msta-S in development right now, not since the MoD has decide to opt out on the Coalition-SV project. And the Msta-S is still in production. They've even completed development of a new Msta-M variant, which has yet to enter service. I doubt they will want to transplant the existing Msta-M or S variant onto a new chassis, so it's likely that it will serve alongside the new Armata, despite having a chassis that's derived from T-80 and T-72 combined. The S-300V4 is in production right now with a chassis also derived from the T-80.

In other words there will be a large number of vehicles on heavy tracked chassis that will not be quickly replaced with an Armata equivalent. I think that largely defeats the purpose of having a unified heavy tracked chassis.
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Old May 16th, 2012   #80
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Russia Testing Italian Tank

Russia is testing Italy's Centauro wheeled tank and considering building it under license, a representative of the Oto-Melara company which makes the tank said on Saturday.

"The first two machines with 105-mm and 125-mm guns are on trial at a Moscow Region proving ground," he said.
Two more Centauros with 120-mm and 30-mm guns will also join the trials in another six weeks. "The tanks will take part in laboratory, driving and firing trials," the Oto-Melara representative said.
When the trials are complete at the end of this year, Russia will consider creating a joint venture for production of the tank with an enterprise from the Russian military-industrial complex, he said.
Russian truck maker Kamaz in Naberezhny Chelny could be involved in the deal, according to a source in Russian arms sales holding Rosoboronexport.
Commenting on the report that Russia is considering building Centauro tanks under license, Yury Borisov, first deputy head of the military-industrial commission, said Russia will only buy foreign weapon models on a one-off basis to study the manufacturing technology and then set up its own production.
A number of military experts earlier said licensed production of those machines in Russia is unlikely.
Russia signed a deal with Italy in December for the semi-knocked down assembly of 60 Lynx light multirole armored vehicles (LMV) from Iveco, Deputy Defense Minister Alexander Sukhorukov said in January.
Oto-Melara, part of the Italian Finnmeccanica group, is part of the CIO joint venture with vehicle manufacturer Iveco to make military vehicles.
Italy already has 400 Centauros in service. The 24 ton tank has a four-man crew, top speed of 100 km/h (60 mph) and range of 800 km (500 miles). It has a main gun and two 7.62 mm machineguns.
http://militaryparsi.ir/en/Defence-N...lian-Tank.html
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Old May 24th, 2012   #81
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An interesting update, South MD will receive 50 Lynx MRAPs for recon units, and 10 Tigr-M. At a glance this looks like a scale back of the Tigr-M in favor of the Lynx, this is deceptive. The numbers here mentioned likely don't include units going to the SpetzNaz GRU, as the total number of Lynxes to be procured is supposedly 150. The numbers of the Tigr-M here mentioned similarly don't include the units going to SpetzNaz. Also these numbers don't include the Tigr vehicles going to other military districts.

There is also a number of them being purchased in non-standard configurations, and that are definitely not going to recon units, including at least 10 brand new EW vehicles on the Tigr chassis, and an unspecified number of Grusha UAV carriers on the Tigr base. Also likely but not confirmed are deliveries of SatCom vehicles, and radiostations based on the Tigr chassis. So realistically we can expect anywhere between 25 and 200 Tigr armored cars to be handed over this year.

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Old June 6th, 2012   #82
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Hey everyone, new to the forums here.

I've been doing a lot of digging and research lately on the BTR-90, and while I know future purchases of the vehicle were rejected by the MoD, what actually happened to the program itself? Seems like it just about dropped off the face of the earth news wise once those announcements were made.

Are they still producing units as part of the 2007-2015 plan, or for export, or is production completely ceased altogether? and did the army actually get any units save the small early batch, did they all go to the MVD, or alternatively are just rotting away somewhere in storage?

All the news sources seem pretty vague on these things, save the refusal of purchase and limitation of export potential.
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Old June 7th, 2012   #83
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Originally Posted by TGracchus View Post
Hey everyone, new to the forums here.

I've been doing a lot of digging and research lately on the BTR-90, and while I know future purchases of the vehicle were rejected by the MoD, what actually happened to the program itself? Seems like it just about dropped off the face of the earth news wise once those announcements were made.

Are they still producing units as part of the 2007-2015 plan, or for export, or is production completely ceased altogether? and did the army actually get any units save the small early batch, did they all go to the MVD, or alternatively are just rotting away somewhere in storage?

All the news sources seem pretty vague on these things, save the refusal of purchase and limitation of export potential.
The Army didn't get any. The MVD might have received a very small batch, but they were never sighted so it's unlikely. No serial production was ever started. One of the reasons for the program getting shut down was that the cost of starting up production of the BTR-90 was fairly high, and the performance meant that it was not going to be the next-gen APC for the Army or MVD.

At least two prototypes were produced, one with a 2A42 cannon, and one with the Bakhcha-U module, and they're still occasionally displayed at arms expos. Probably several more were used up in trials. I'm not sure there ever were any more then that.

The BTR-90 program became part of the technological basis for the Gilza program, which later turned into the Bumerang program, which is the current next-gen wheeled platform under development.
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Old June 21st, 2012   #84
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Felin

Looks like Russia is seeking to purchase FELIN future soldier kits from France.

Russia in talks with France on 'future soldier' gear | Defense | RIA Novosti

As always, plans have been announced to create an analogous system.

One Russian commentator has noted that future soldier gear such as FELIN are more suited to small unit special forces action and I tend to agree.. IMHO it would be more practical for Russia to focus on more mainstream gear such as modern scopes and digital radios for the individual soldier. Thoughts?
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Old June 21st, 2012   #85
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I was under the impression that FELIN had already been bought in small number of SpetzNaz use.

There are competing domestic projects, including a Permyachka-2 set, and some formal state-procurement related program for future individual tactical gear, with an ominous 2015 "completion" date.

On another interesting note, Russia has expressed interest in acquiring 500 Patria AMVs from Finland.

bmpd -
*

However it's that number is downright tiny, given the needs of the Russian Army (enough for ~2 motor-rifle brigades if that), and given that the Bumerang project is still proceeding, it's unlikely they will scrap it in favor of an imported variant, especially given that they intend to develop a whole family of vehicles rather then just an APC.
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Old June 22nd, 2012   #86
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Does somebody know the current size of the Russian ground forces? Some years ago they had about 360.000 soldiers, I wonder how many of them are left today.
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Old June 23rd, 2012   #87
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Was that figure 360.000 fighting personel, or totaly within its branch?
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Old June 24th, 2012   #88
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To be honest I don't know. I think this figure didn't include civilian employees as the total strength of the armed forces would have been to high then. Because of this I suppose there were 360.000 soldiers in the army some years ago. Now they probably have about 300.000, but I'd like to know the exact number.
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Old June 29th, 2012   #89
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RIAN has published an article today regarding a new armored infantry vehicle that is to be produced as a result of a French-Russian project within the next 18 months (can't post link, still to small for that :P). Does anyone have any more info on it?

Seems that recently Russia is reaching out more and more for military equipment (or at least there seems to be a significant increase in such "projects"). Is it due to an internal competition between manufacturers trying to get a slice of the pie as the Boomerang and other projects might find them cold in the rain, an attempt to get access to new technology or just that Russian military industrial complex is just unable to satisfy the current demands? (There is also the alternative of the good old "money for the right people").

Also, it seems that Russian will resume supplies to Egypt for previous contracts.
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Old June 30th, 2012   #90
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Speculative renderings of the next generation tracked and wheeled armored vehicles under development for the Russian ground forces have appeared online.

bmpd -

Laid out are pictures of a Kurganets tracked and Bumerang wheeled command vehicles, as well as an EW complex on the Bumerang platform. Posters have noted the Bumerang's similarity to the Finish Patria AMV and Swiss MOWAG Piranha.

Personally, I find the Kurganets IFV to be similar to the prospective Ground Combat Vehicle under development in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GC...ng_Vehicle.jpg
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