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RussianLand Forces Thread

This is a discussion on RussianLand Forces Thread within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by alexkvaskov Does the MRL system have nuclear munitions? Iskanders would be used for pinpoint tactical nuclear strikes ...


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Old October 10th, 2012   #136
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Does the MRL system have nuclear munitions? Iskanders would be used for pinpoint tactical nuclear strikes against command posts and assembly areas, whereas the MRLs would be used in a conventional role for area bombardment. Regarding the budget situation, they'll probably end up retaining both systems, and won't have enough money to deploy and upgrade the systems in desired numbers.
To the best of my knowledge there were no nuclear munitions produced for the Iskander so far. So that remains more of a hypothetical. The Tornado-S has no nuclear munitions at this time, and iirc neither does the current Smerch.
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Old October 18th, 2012   #137
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Russia it testing the German Boxer APC. Two of them are undergoing trials in Russia right now, with potential local production. This follows the earlier testing of Centauro and Freccia Italian APCs, and tank destroyers.

bmpd -
*
Lenta.ru:

There are several possible explanations. One of them is that Russian MoD wants to take a look at popular foreign platforms, and learn from them. Another is that this is an attempt to pressure domestic companies to lower prices, and improve quality. Of course the last option is that they really are considering scrapping the domestic Bumerang program, and settling for an imported vehicle.

EDIT: The MoD has bought 22 German field camps, for 9.8 bln roubles (~300 mln USD). They bought two previously and have been using them. It looks like they liked it. Out of the current contract, 4 have already been delivered to Ashuluk, and two more are due there before year's end. A total of 12 will be deployed to Ashuluk.

http://twower.livejournal.com/900075.html

This might mean a fairly large purchase of MAN trucks by them as well, as at least a pair of those trucks came with one of the earlier purchased field camps.

Last edited by Feanor; October 23rd, 2012 at 06:28 PM.
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Old November 10th, 2012   #138
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Some more scale models of the Bumerang and Kurganets vehicles, with the Bumerang bearing an uncanny resemblance to modern Western APCs, such as the Patria AMV, Boxer and Piranha.

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Old November 11th, 2012   #139
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Originally Posted by alexkvaskov View Post
Some more scale models of the Bumerang and Kurganets vehicles, with the Bumerang bearing an uncanny resemblance to modern Western APCs, such as the Patria AMV, Boxer and Piranha.

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There's more here: Аванпроекты
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Old November 19th, 2012   #140
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Russian Military Police

new Russian Military Police units getting closer to full operations

article reads its main function is to fight hazing and military theft. Very pleased with the goal here as these are two of the largest stumbling blocks to a new, more professional Russian military

to Feanor (or others): do you know if the military police is limited to a specific service (eg the Army) or will it also deploy as part of other units like the Navy?
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Old November 21st, 2012   #141
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The military police looks like it will replace the military commandants, and will work with the military procuracy the same way that police does in the civilian world. In other words it would be a structure outside of all the services.

In other news, the Volk armored car is going to start state acceptance trials early next year. For me personally this is somewhat disheartening. The Land Forces are already getting the Tiger, and the Lynx, and UAZ Gusar. There is no need for another type.

Lenta.ru:

EDIT: South MD just took delivery of a bucket-full of arty pieces and support vehicles to them. The numbers listed are as follows:

40+ Msta-S
20+ Kornet ATGMs
70+ Tornado and Grad systems (at least 24 are Tornado-G systems, 18 in 20th MRB, and 6 to an MRB in Chechnya)
20+ Hosta SP Arty/Mortars
?? Iskander missile units

Allegedly all the units delivered have GLONASS navigation and telecoded digital communication equipment. The Msta-S are equipped with the automatic fcs.Also delivered were unspecified quantities of arty command posts, counter-battery radars, mortars, arty recon vehicles and other equipment.

http://www.lenta.ru/news/2012/11/22/artillery/

It really looks like they're not waiting for next-gen systems when it comes to re-equipping South MD.

Last edited by Feanor; November 22nd, 2012 at 04:00 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #142
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Originally Posted by Feanor View Post

Lenta.ru:

EDIT: South MD just took delivery of a bucket-full of arty pieces and support vehicles to them. The numbers listed are as follows:

40+ Msta-S
20+ Kornet ATGMs
70+ Tornado and Grad systems (at least 24 are Tornado-G systems, 18 in 20th MRB, and 6 to an MRB in Chechnya)
20+ Hosta SP Arty/Mortars
?? Iskander missile units

Allegedly all the units delivered have GLONASS navigation and telecoded digital communication equipment. The Msta-S are equipped with the automatic fcs.Also delivered were unspecified quantities of arty command posts, counter-battery radars, mortars, arty recon vehicles and other equipment.

Lenta.ru:

It really looks like they're not waiting for next-gen systems when it comes to re-equipping South MD.
These Hosta's are another batch on the top of the one delivered earlier this year, correct? As well, has the 155mm Msta variant entered service with any units yet?

IMHO it's a good idea for them to rearm the district the best tech available right now, as even that is pretty good relative to what some of the other MD's are using. Supposedly, over 80% of the comms gear in service in the south is modern, and will hit 90% next year. They're really rearming the South MD, sure makes me why.
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #143
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Sorry for the off-topic question here, I was wondering, how reliable is warfare.ru as a source?
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #144
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These Hosta's are another batch on the top of the one delivered earlier this year, correct?
I don't know. Maybe not. This article seems to list a very large number of systems, so I suspect it's a summary of everything this year. Then again a total of 36 Hosta's were ordered last year. And they're being deployed in replacement of btln mortars, 6 per MRBtln. So 36 of them re-arms 2 MRBdes. Given that they should only be re-arming South MD (well and the one experimental brigade in Central MD) I don't see why they need more then that. My guess is total Hosta numbers for this year will be 36 again.

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As well, has the 155mm Msta variant entered service with any units yet?
Not to the best of my knowledge. Why would it? It was meant as an export variant. Russia isn't switching over to NATO standard munitions. The 120mm systems are meant to be able to fire mortar rounds, and iirc they're still compatible with the 122mm munitions.

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IMHO it's a good idea for them to rearm the district the best tech available right now, as even that is pretty good relative to what some of the other MD's are using. Supposedly, over 80% of the comms gear in service in the south is modern, and will hit 90% next year. They're really rearming the South MD, sure makes me why.
It's obvious why. Most of Russia's major conflicts have occured in that area. With the exception of the issue of Tadjikistan, Russia has pretty much only fought there.

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Sorry for the off-topic question here, I was wondering, how reliable is warfare.ru as a source?
Sort of reliable. They have an excellent database of units, and their equipment. But their total numbers of equipment are often off, or plain guesses. I'd cross reference them if you can. What specifically were you wondering about?
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #145
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Given that they should only be re-arming South MD (well and the one experimental brigade in Central MD) I don't see why they need more then that. My guess is total Hosta numbers for this year will be 36 again.
So they don't plan on upgrading 2S1's in any of the other MDs?


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It's obvious why. Most of Russia's major conflicts have occured in that area. With the exception of the issue of Tadjikistan, Russia has pretty much only fought there.
I can understand that, but the rearmament drive has been much more extensive than what's necessary for mere counter insurgency, then again the Americans spend trillions fighting guys in Toyota trucks with AK47s


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Sort of reliable. They have an excellent database of units, and their equipment. But their total numbers of equipment are often off, or plain guesses. I'd cross reference them if you can. What specifically were you wondering about?
Artillery piece numbers, by type.
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #146
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So they don't plan on upgrading 2S1's in any of the other MDs?
It's not a 2S1 upgrade or replacement. It's true that they rebuild 2S1s to make them, but in the TO&E they replace the 2S12 Sani towed 120mm mortar. The 2S34 is a btln mortar, with a battery of six deployed to each motor-rifle btln.

In the new universal platforms there are 120mm SP mortar/arty systems planned on every type of chassis, except maybe light wheeled chassis. The plastic models they unveiled showed the Kurganets and Bumerang with 120mm mortars that looked similar to the Vena system. The current 2S1s will probably disappear entirely in the new force orgs.

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I can understand that, but the rearmament drive has been much more extensive than what's necessary for mere counter insurgency, then again the Americans spend trillions fighting guys in Toyota trucks with AK47s
Not all the conflicts were counter-insurgency. Not the Georgian Civil War, not the initial push through Chechnya (first and second time), not the Armenia-Azeri conflicts, and not the war in Georgia in '08. In particular is the relatively poor performance of line arty units in the '08 war that probably made them speed up the re-armament with what's available instead of waiting for the next-gen platforms.

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Artillery piece numbers, by type.
Uh. I have no idea. I doubt they're accurate. They're probably guesstimates. Nobody really knows (except the MoD, and even that's questionable) how many Soviet-era arty pieces are still in storage, and how many have been recycled, or disposed of. There's also the question of what counts as being in inventory... there's tons of Soviet-era gear that's rusting in rot-lots, and there's also tons of it simply abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Every once in a while the Russian blogosphere published photos of abandoned military bases with equipment still in them.

And to be honest it's not like it's impossible to refurbish the gear and put it back in service. It's just that there's no reason to. What arty pieces were you actually interested in? And for what purposes? What I mean is, what's the relevance of total numbers to you?
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Old November 22nd, 2012   #147
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It's not a 2S1 upgrade or replacement. It's true that they rebuild 2S1s to make them, but in the TO&E they replace the 2S12 Sani towed 120mm mortar. The 2S34 is a btln mortar, with a battery of six deployed to each motor-rifle btln.
Ah, that makes more sense; seeing as a 2S34 has much greater combat capabilities than a simple towed mortar, they improve capabilities while reducing the number of systems in service.

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In the new universal platforms there are 120mm SP mortar/arty systems planned on every type of chassis, except maybe light wheeled chassis. The plastic models they unveiled showed the Kurganets and Bumerang with 120mm mortars that looked similar to the Vena system. The current 2S1s will probably disappear entirely in the new force orgs.
That makes perfect sense, having more IFV and APC platforms with arty modules, but the Bumerang and Kurganets probably won't enter service in meaningful numbers for some time yet, so it's a stopgap; an effective one at that, seems the need for modern arty was really pressing if they decided not to wait for the new platforms.

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In particular is the relatively poor performance of line arty units in the '08 war that probably made them speed up the re-armament with what's available instead of waiting for the next-gen platforms.
Specifically, what were some of the complaints the MoD/commanders had?

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Uh. I have no idea. I doubt they're accurate. They're probably guesstimates. Nobody really knows (except the MoD, and even that's questionable) how many Soviet-era arty pieces are still in storage, and how many have been recycled, or disposed of. There's also the question of what counts as being in inventory... there's tons of Soviet-era gear that's rusting in rot-lots, and there's also tons of it simply abandoned in the middle of nowhere. Every once in a while the Russian blogosphere published photos of abandoned military bases with equipment still in them.

And to be honest it's not like it's impossible to refurbish the gear and put it back in service. It's just that there's no reason to. What arty pieces were you actually interested in? And for what purposes? What I mean is, what's the relevance of total numbers to you?
Towed and self-propelled 122 and 152mm pieces. There is a indeed a lot of gear out there, rusting away, some of which is in very poor condition and not fit for reconditioning. The problem it seems is lack of personnel for the thousands of pieces in serviceable condition that are in storage.

Regarding why I need the numbers, it's that I've been trying to get a clearer picture of the Russian armed forces in general, to better my understanding of their capabilities, force orgs and deployed equipment.
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Old November 23rd, 2012   #148
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On red-stars.org there are some articles on the Russian ground forces. One of them mentions that in early 2012 there were about 600 Msta in service.
This site has always been quite reliable, as far as I know.
I would also like to know how many artillery pieces are still in service. According to warfare.ru there are 950 Akatsiya SPH left. This could be true, as an older article on wikipedia claimed that the number was 1400 several years ago.
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Old November 23rd, 2012   #149
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Ah, that makes more sense; seeing as a 2S34 has much greater combat capabilities than a simple towed mortar, they improve capabilities while reducing the number of systems in service.
I don't think they're reducing the number of systems. One of the alleged benefits of the 2S34 was a high degree of automation. So the way I understand it, it's a 1 for 1 replacement for btln 120mm mortars.

Quote:
That makes perfect sense, having more IFV and APC platforms with arty modules, but the Bumerang and Kurganets probably won't enter service in meaningful numbers for some time yet, so it's a stopgap; an effective one at that, seems the need for modern arty was really pressing if they decided not to wait for the new platforms.
Well the point is that the 2S1 is mostly in service with light units as it stands. It's not likely to be replaced by another MT-LB chassis vehicle.

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Specifically, what were some of the complaints the MoD/commanders had?
Poor situational awareness, slow response times, inability to effectively suppress Georgian arty due to a lack of modern anti-battery radars. Speaking of those, a handful of brand new Zoopark-1 counter-battery fire radars were recently delivered to East MD, which I'm assuming means that South MD has been saturated since '08.

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Towed and self-propelled 122 and 152mm pieces. There is a indeed a lot of gear out there, rusting away, some of which is in very poor condition and not fit for reconditioning. The problem it seems is lack of personnel for the thousands of pieces in serviceable condition that are in storage.
They're basically getting ditched. The VDV will probably keep something towed airdroppable, but even that may change if they get an upgraded Nona-S variant on the BMD-4M chassis. Or some airdroppable variant of the Vena. The new force org leaves literally no room for towed systems. Even 82mm mortars are planned for mounting on Tiger chassis.

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Regarding why I need the numbers, it's that I've been trying to get a clearer picture of the Russian armed forces in general, to better my understanding of their capabilities, force orgs and deployed equipment.
The giant storage of towed guns mostly has no relevance to this whatsoever. I'd consider looking at actual reserve-storage bases, that could get activated into real units. The obscene quantities in long term storage/rot lots/abandoned aren't going anywhere, unless some desperate export customer is found. And even then the numbers aren't likely to exceed double digits, where as total numbers in storage are probably in the 5 digits area.
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Old November 23rd, 2012   #150
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On red-stars.org there are some articles on the Russian ground forces. One of them mentions that in early 2012 there were about 600 Msta in service.
This site has always been quite reliable, as far as I know.
I would also like to know how many artillery pieces are still in service. According to warfare.ru there are 950 Akatsiya SPH left. This could be true, as an older article on wikipedia claimed that the number was 1400 several years ago.
The definition of in-service is very fungible. It's not clear what they could mean by that. It could be numbers in actual units, be they active or mobilizational reserve, they could mean numbers in units + numbers at central storage. It could mean some nominal roster of how many arty pieces they're supposed to have.

EDIT: A quick update Artillery Brigade 291 in Ingushetiya (South MD) took delivery of 10 Khrizantema ATGM carriers. In the near future all the Shturm-S in that unit will get replaced with Khrizantema.

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/391761.html
http://structure.mil.ru/structure/ok...1487276@egNews

Also the Iskander deliveries went to 1st Missile Brigade in South MD. Most likely 6 units were delivered with associated support vehicles.

Last edited by Feanor; November 23rd, 2012 at 04:14 PM.
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