Are pistol caliber sub-machine guns still used by militaries?
This is a discussion on Are pistol caliber sub-machine guns still used by militaries? within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; I was wondering if a pistol caliber smg is still in use by any armies?
Is the Kriss smg a ...
SMGs have become less popular as advances in soft body armor have been made. I know we haven't issued a SMG since about Korea. With the size of 5.56mm carbines there really isn't a reason to carry one, unless that is you want to limit penetration in congested areas.
Even in American Police Dept's SMGs are pretty much kept locked up while 5.56mm weapons are issued.
For combat they are a pretty poor choice, other then special OPs type stuff where sound suppression is required.
Most specialist police / military units are moving away from 9mm as the primary and secondary calibre of round used in the urban environment. Traditionally the MP5 family of weapons was the benchmark, and most popular, whether in A3, A5, K, or SD guise. Secondary weapons tended to be a 9mm pistol and (if designated for role) shotgun for breaching. It was common for pistol and SMG’s to be of the same calibre, the rounds carried however would be varied depending on the weapon of choice / role (sub-sonic, hollow-point, full-metal jacket etc). You would always select a sub-sonic round for the MP5SD for example.
Since the early 90’s, due to advances in body armour, narcotics impact on targets ability to fight-on when shot, and the need for greater stopping power, units have moved towards 5.56mm (Sig550, M4, HK53) or even 7.62mm (G3K). Sidearm calibres have or are changing with the good old .45 gaining in popularity again.
Dont the Russian Spec ops/interior ministry use 9mm caliber sub sonic ammo precisely because of its armour peircing qualities?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Dont the Russian Spec ops/interior ministry use 9mm caliber sub sonic ammo precisely because of its armour peircing qualities?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, along with U.S military special covert units, there is sub sonic 9mm ammunition that will penetrate body armor.
Back around 15 years ago you could buy 9mm ammunition in the U.S over the counter called Eagle Black Talon produced by Winchester that could penetrate ballistic armor, because of this it was pulled from the civilian market due to the potential hazard that our law enforcement officers could face.
Back around 15 years ago you could buy 9mm ammunition in the U.S over the counter called Eagle Black Talon produced by Winchester that could penetrate ballistic armor, because of this it was pulled from the civilian market due to the potential hazard that our law enforcement officers could face.
what the hell were they thinking in the first place... nice name tho
Yes, along with U.S military special covert units, there is sub sonic 9mm ammunition that will penetrate body armor.
Back around 15 years ago you could buy 9mm ammunition in the U.S over the counter called Eagle Black Talon produced by Winchester that could penetrate ballistic armor, because of this it was pulled from the civilian market due to the potential hazard that our law enforcement officers could face.
I'm assuming you mean soft kevlar body armour, not SAPI plates? Can't imagine any subsonic 9mm round generating enough energy to do that.
French Navy troops still use SMG's like MP5 and combat shotguns when they go onboard vessel, because a 5.56 bullet can penetrate through the thin wall of a ship, and cause extensive damage to critical installations.
However there is always a teammate who carries a 5.56 rifle during those visits, beside his comrades using SMGs.
If you are concerned about penatration you can use frangible ammo for 5.56mm or hatton for shotgun.
Let us no forgetting the HEAVY administration in France that will create tons of paper and waste lot of money just to equip visitex teams with frangible ammunition, instead of regular "we are used to issue" ammos.
Commando units can afford this, because they've got "cash programms", bypassing the tresory, but for simple navy rifleman...
The RAAF's "Air Field Defence" guards (Adgies as they're known) have started using 9mm MP5's in their "flightline security" roles.
For what reason I cannot fathom (I guess it's part of their whole "we're elite" too mindsets!), however there you go...
Australian Army elements also use 9mm MP5's and MP5K's in CPP roles (close personal protection) including Military Police (who have primary responsibility for this role within the Australian Army) as do obviously specwarrops elements.
The Army's Counter-Terrorism units, TAG-E and TAG-W (TAG = Tactical Assault Group and E and W refers to East coast and West coast of Australia) also make heavy use of the MP5 series of weapons.
RAN Clearance Diving Teams (CDT's) also make use of them for certain roles.
The RAAF's "Air Field Defence" guards (Adgies as they're known) have started using 9mm MP5's in their "flightline security" roles.
For what reason I cannot fathom (I guess it's part of their whole "we're elite" too mindsets!), however there you go...
Australian Army elements also use 9mm MP5's and MP5K's in CPP roles (close personal protection) including Military Police (who have primary responsibility for this role within the Australian Army) as do obviously specwarrops elements.
The Army's Counter-Terrorism units, TAG-E and TAG-W (TAG = Tactical Assault Group and E and W refers to East coast and West coast of Australia) also make heavy use of the MP5 series of weapons.
RAN Clearance Diving Teams (CDT's) also make use of them for certain roles.
That's about it for Australia.
surprised the Aussies haven't moved over to mp-7 for Military police and CCP roles. the CCP seems to be done by MP-7 in the UK
