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Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks

This is a discussion on Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; (please don't just vote for your country, vote responsibly)...


View Poll Results: Pakistani vs Indian tanks- who has the edge?
Pakistan 21 58.33%
India 11 30.56%
Same 0 0%
There isn't going to be war so I don't care 3 8.33%
Other 1 2.78%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 9th, 2003   #1
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Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks

(please don't just vote for your country, vote responsibly)
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Old April 9th, 2003   #2
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Here's my two cents. Pakistan has the edge. India isn't even upgrading it's T-72s even though there was reports of them doing so. Pakistan is upgrading it's T-55s into Al-Zarrars, which seem to be pretty good tanks. Than Pakistan has it's T-84s from Ukraine that are excellent. They can go one-on-one with India's T-90s.
Than Pakistan has the Al-Khalid. India has Arjuns, but according to the reports, India will only have 124 of them by 2005 ($5mn each!). At that time, Pakistan would have 300 Al-Khalids.

India may have the number advantage, but that's it.
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Old April 12th, 2003   #3
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First of all the Al-Zazzar hasn't even been released, plus if brings the tanks at the level of the Al-Khalid. India will have a definitive edge. Take a look at this...

Quote:
Al-Khalid
Powerplant: Ukrainian 6TD 1200hp
Maximum Speed: 37 mph
Weight: 48 tons
Armament: one 125mm smooth bore gun
one 12.7mm machine gun
one 7.62mm machine gun

Quote:
T-72
Designations T-72S (export), SMT M1988
Date of Introduction 1985

Speed (km/h)
Max Road 60
Max Off-Road 45
Average Cross-Country 35
Protection
Armor, Turret Front (mm) 520/950 against HEAT
Applique Armor (mm) Side of hull over track skirt, turret top
Explosive Reactive Armor (mm) Kontakt or Kontakt-5 ERA
Active Protective System Arena available
Mineclearing Equipment Roller-plow set, and plows available
Self-Entrenching Blade Yes
NBC Protection System Yes
Smoke Equipment Smoke grenade launchers (8x 81-mm left side of turret), and 32 grenades. Vehicle engine exhaust smoke system.
ARMAMENT
Main Armament
Caliber, Type, Name 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A46M/ D-81TM
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 4-6/2 in manual mode
Loader Type Autoloader (separate loading) and manual
Ready/Stowed Rounds 22/23
Elevation (°) -6 to +14
Fire on Move Yes, up to 25 km/h. Depending on the road and distance to the target, most crews may halt before firing.
Auxiliary Weapon
Caliber, Type, Name 7.62-mm (7.62x 54R) Machinegun PKT
Mount Type Turret coax
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 2,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 1,000
Night 800
Fire on Move Yes
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 250 practical, 600 cyclic in 2-10 round bursts
Caliber, Type, Name 12.7-mm (12.7x108) AA MG NSVT
Mount Type Turret top
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 2,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 1,500/1,000 antiaircraft
Night N/A
Fire on Move Yes
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 200 practical, 600 cyclic in bursts
ATGM Launcher
Name 2A46M
Launch Method Gun-launched
Guidance SACLOS, Laser beam rider
Command Link Encoded infrared laser beam
Launcher Dismountable No
FIRE CONTROL
FCS Name 1A40-1
Main Gun Stabilization 2E42-2, 2-plane
Rangefinder TPD-K1M laser rangefinder
Infrared Searchlight Yes
Sights w/Magnification
Gunner
Day TPD-K1, 8
Field of View (°) 9
Acquisition Range (m) 3,000 with LRF, 5,000 without
ATGM/Night 1K13-495 5.6x (8x ATGM)
Field of View (°) 6, 40 min (5 ATGM)
Acquisition Range (m) INA
Commander Fire Main Gun No
MAIN ARMAMENT AMMUNITION
Caliber, Type, Name
125-mm APFSDS-T, BM-42M
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 3,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 2,000-3,000
Night 850-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) 590-630 at 2,000 meters
125-mm Frag-HE-T, OF-26
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 5,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 850-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) INA
125-mm HEAT-MP, BK-29M
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 3,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 850-1300
Armor Penetration (mm) 650-750
125-mm HEAT, BK-27
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 3,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 850-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) 700-800
Other Ammunition Types Giat 125G1 APFSDS-T, Russian BM-42
and BM-32 APFSDS-T. Note The Russians may have a version of the BM-42M with a DU penetrator.
Antitank Guided Missiles
Name AT-11/SVIR
Warhead Type Shaped charge (HEAT)
Armor Penetration (mm ) 700 behind ERA/800 conventional
Range (m) 4,000
Name AT-11B/INVAR
Warhead Type Tandem Shaped charge (HEAT)
Armor Penetration (mm ) 800 behind ERA /870 conventional
Range (m) 4,000
Right now let's say the T-72 has a cross country speed of 35-46mph vs the Al-Khalid's 38mph. Since the T-72 upgrade would provide night vision, and significant electronic upgrades. I believe the electronics and weapon suite would be better for us, cause we could get it from Russia, and Israel. Russia is master of these tanks, they know the T-series inside out, and Israel is pretty good in upgrading these tanks too. I didn't include China cause they keep on making tanks that are basically the T-72, in my opinion its called failure. You don't need a T-80,84,90,98,99 to take on a T-72. Since the T-72 will be upgraded at the level of the T-90S. Take a look at this...

Quote:
T-90S
Dimensions
Length 9.53 - 6.86 meters
Width 3.78 meters
Height 2.225 meters
clearance 0.47 meters
Weight 46.5 - 50 metric tons
Armored volume 11.04 m3
turretvolume 1.85 m3
Crew 3
Engine 840 hp V-84MS diesel
1,000 hp V-84KD turbo-supercharged diesel
1,000 hp V-85 diesel
1 kW AB-1-P28 auxiliary power unit
Max Road Speed 65 km/h
Max cross-country Speed 45 km/h
Power/Weight 18 - 20.0 hp/tn
Ground Pressure 0.938 kg/sq.cm
Range 550 - 650 km
Obstacle negotiation
Fording depth 1.2 m on the move/5 m with OPVT (snorkel)
Trench width 2.8 m
Vertical obstacle 0.8 m
Maximum gradient 30°
Weapons
Main Weapon 125mm 2A46M-2 smoothbore
Stabilization 2E42-4 Zhasmin
Rate of fire 6-8 rounds/min
Ammunition 43 rounds (22 in carousel)
Ammunition Types APFSDS, HEAT, HEF
ATGM through 125mm 9M119M Refleks-M (AT-11 Sniper-B)
Machine Guns Coaxial PKT 7.62mm (2000 rounds)
Remotely-controlled AAMG mount Utjos NSVT 12.7mm (300 rounds)
Smoke Screens 12 902B 82mm mortars with 3D17 smoke grenades
smoke discharger
Equipment
Night Vision TO1-PO2T Agava-2 TI (target id range 2.5 km)
TPN-4-49-23 Buran-PA (target id range 1.2/1.5 km)
Fire Control 1A45T Irtysh computerized system with 9S515 missile guidance system
Onboard sights
Commander PNK-4S sight includes TKN-4S Agat-S day/night sight (target id range 800 m (day)/700 m (night))
Gunner 1V528-1 ballistic computer
1A43 rangefinder/sight
1G46 laying device
DVE-BS wind gauge
Driver TVN-5 IR night viewer
Radio R-163-50U
R-163-50U + R-163-50K (T-90K)
Navigation TNA-4-3 (T-90K)
Jammers Shtora-1 EOCMDAS
Dazzle painting
Other NBC, 3ETs13 Inej auto-fire-fighting equipment,
self-dig-in blade,
air conditioning,
KMT-6 mine clearing equipment (optional)
Front & side armor laminated front, side and top armor behind Kontakt-5 ERA
Front armor rating, mm RHA vs APFSDS: 550 mm + 250-280mm with Kontakt-5 = 800-830mm
vs HEAT: 650 mm + 500-700mm with Kontakt-5 = 1,150-1,350mm
The T-90S has max speed of 50mph, and is superior to the Al-Khalid in any way. This means the upgrade T-72S will equal the T-90S, and also there is a possibility of getting 1000 T-90S. The only thing not initiating this deal is the Arjun, its a good tank but the Army loves it but its a little pricey. If the Arjun is selected, we have a definitive advantage, if not then we still have an edge over Pakistan. Quit the dreaming folks we all know that the T-90S can defeat any T-80UD which is Pakistan's best tank. Here's the specs on the Arjun...

It looks like Bharat-Rakshak has a error of its speed, 72km/h equal 55mph. Even if it was 45mph its superior to Al-Khalid.

Quote:
Arjun MBT MK1
Weight 59 tons (58.5 tonnes)
Length (gun forwards) 10.19m
Width (over tracks) 3.5m
(w/ skirts) 3.85m
Height (w/o 12.7mm AAMG) 2.32m
Engine 1400 HP MTU 838 Ka 501Diesel
Transmission Semi-automatic with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears.(also reported as ZF automatic)
Fuel 1610 ltrs
PERFORMANCE
Max Speed 72-70 kph (55 mph)
Cross Country Speed 40 kph
Cruising Range 200 km (120 miles)
Ground Pressure . 84 kg/cm Square
Ground Clearance .45m
Slide Slope: 60%
Climbing Gradient 35°
Trench 2.43 m (also given as 3m)
Vertical Obstacle .9m
Ford 1.4 m
ARMAMENT
Main Gun 120mm, stabalized w/ MRS (APFSDS, HE, HEAT, HESH and smoke)
12.7mm AA Gun (probably NVST)
7.62mm Coax (probably PK-T)
2 X 9 Smoke Grenade Launchers
LRF Range 10 km
Sights Thermal (Max Rng 5.5 km)
Active and Passive
Defensive Systems 'Arena' a possibilty, probable Laser Warning System
Pakistan's Most powerful tank....

Quote:
T-80U
Designations T-80U SMT (Soviet Medium Tank) M1989
Date of Introduction 1987
Current Using Countries China Cyprus Pakistan Russia South Korea Ukraine
Description
Crew 3
Combat Weight (mt) 46.0
Chassis Length Overall (m) 7.01
Height Overall (m) 2.20
Width Overall (m) 3.60
Ground Pressure (kg/cm 2 ) 0.92
Automotive Performance
Engine Type 1250-hp Gas turbine (multi-fuel), diesel on T-80UD
Cruising Range (km) 335 km/600 km with extra tanks
Speed (km/h)
Max Road 70
Max Off-Road 48
Average Cross-Country 40
Max Swim N/A
Fording Depths (m) 1.8 Unprepared, 5.0 w/snorkel, 12.0 with BROD-M system
Radio R-173, R-174 intercom
Protection
Armor, Turret Front (mm) Against 120-mm ammunition
Applique Armor (mm) Side of hull , over track skirt
Explosive Reactive Armor (mm) Kontakt-5 2nd Generation ERA
Active Protective System ARENA is available
Mineclearing Equipment Roller-plow set and plows available
Self-Entrenching Blade Yes
NBC Protection System Yes
Smoke Equipment Smoke grenade launchers (4x 81-mm each side of turret), and 24 grenades. Vehicle engine exhaust smoke system.
ARMAMENT
Main Armaments
Caliber, Type, Name 125-mm smoothbore gun 2A46M-1
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 7-8 (lower in manual mode)
Loader Type KORZINA separate-loading autoloader, and manual
Ready/Stowed Rounds 28 in carousel/17 stowed (manual loaded)
Elevation (°) -4 to +18
Fire on Move Yes (gun rounds and ATGMs)
Auxiliary Weapon
Caliber, Type, Name 7.62-mm (7.62x 54R) Machinegun PKT
Mount Type Turret coaxial
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 2,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 800
Night 800
Fire on Move Yes
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 250 practical / 650 cyclic, 2-10 round bursts
Caliber, Type, Name 12.7-mm (12.7x108) AA MG NSVT
Mount Type Turret top
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 2,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 1,500
Night 800-1,300
Fire on Move Yes
Rate of Fire (rd/min) 210 practical/ 800 air targets in bursts
ATGM Launcher
Name 2A46M-1 tank gun
Launch Method Gun-launched
Guidance SACLOS, Laser-beam rider
Command Link Encoded infrared laser-beam
Launcher Dismountable No
FIRE CONTROL
FCS Name FCS 1A42
Main Gun Stabilization 2342, 2-plane
Rangefinder Laser
Infrared Searchlight Yes
Sights w/Magnification
Gunner
Day 1G46/PERFECT, 3.6/12x
Field of View (°) INA
Acquisition Range (m) 5,000 (70%P-hit for ATGM)
Night AGAVA-2
Field of View (°) INA
Acquisition Range (m) 2,600 (gun rounds only)
Commander Fire Main Gun Yes
MAIN ARMAMENT AMMUNITION
Caliber, Type, Name
125-mm APFSDS-T, BM-42M
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 3,000-4,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 2,000-3,000
Night 800-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) 590-630 at 2,000 meters
125-mm HE-Shapnel Focused-fragmentation, Ainet
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 5,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day 4,000
Night 800-1,300
Tactical AA Range 4,000-5,000
Armor Penetration (mm) INA
125-mm Frag-HE-T, OF-26
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 5,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 800-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) INA
125-mm HEAT-MP, BK-29M
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 4,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 800-1300
Armor Penetration (mm) 650-750
125-mm HEAT, BK-27
Maximum Aimed Range (m) 4,000
Max Effective Range (m)
Day INA
Night 800-1,300
Armor Penetration (mm) 700-800
Other Ammunition Types Giat 125G1 APFSDS-T, Russian BM-42 and BM-32 APFSDS-T. The Russians may have a version of the BM-42M with a DU penetrator.
Antitank Guided Missiles
Name AT-11/SVIR
Warhead Type Shaped charge (HEAT)
Armor Penetration (mm) 700 (RHA) behind ERA/800 conventional
Range (m) 5,000
Name AT-11B/INVAR
Warhead Type Tandem shaped charge
Armor Penetration (mm) 800 (RHA) behind ERA /870 conventional
Range (m) 5,000
Some right see that the T-80U is a little more faster then the T-90S but the T-90S has a better weapons suite. Plus I don't believe Pakistan won't be getitng all the features cause Russia won't transfer that to them.
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Old April 12th, 2003   #4
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bhaRAT, [NOTE FROM ADMIN: Please watch your lingo, don't distort other members username]
you claim al-khalid is a failure. how is this true when Pakistan is already producing them in large numbers? pakistan will have 400 of them by 2005. India will only have 124 Arjuns by 2005
So it seems to me Arjun is the failure. india spent more time and money on Arjun, but they are still lagging behind pakistan
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Old April 12th, 2003   #5
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Look at it thise way China produced 5 different tanks that are basically equal the T-72, come on, you're telling me it isn't a failure. What about the Patriot, its said to be an ATBM, but its crap, but they still produced it. Just cause a product is being produced doesn't mean its a success. Hey provide the source about the 400 Al-Khalid going to be mass produced. Let me tell you something, it better be neutral.
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Old April 13th, 2003   #6
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Bharat.........I think India has the older version of the T-72 & not the current export version. The older T-72s do not have Konkaht ERA and lack the electronic capabilities of modern tanks.

The T-90S is essentially a heavily upgraded T-72M.
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Old April 15th, 2003   #7
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Lets just put it this way!

It all depends how good and well trained you are to control the damn
machine. You could be inside M1A1 Abrams but if you do not know how to make the damn thing work than you will be an easy target.

So none of the Indian or Pakistani are good in my opinion.

Only well trained tank crew can show which tank has the edge in a battle.
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Old April 15th, 2003   #8
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Why do you think that neither the Pakistanis and Indians are well-trained enough? I get it, only you Americans are smart enough to make use out of your military. Everyone other country is just full of a bunch of idiots that run around shooting their weapons up camels butts for fun. Pakistan has a very well trained military and I bet if they were given access to the same technology as Americans and had time to train themselves they'd end up kicking your pompous ass because you'd rely too much on your superiority complex than some real skills.
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Old July 26th, 2005   #9
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Re: Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks

How on earth did Pakistan got majority of votes .

Al-zazzars are are nothing but T-55s covered with ERA. Indians are selling these junk as scrap metal . It does not mean that if you bring a crap machine fro junkyard, cover it with ERA and it becomes a brand new tank . This is a desperate Pakistani effort to maintain its numbers , since its meagre budget would not allow much marketing .

Al-Khalid is a rejected Chinese Type-90 tank with Ukranian engine . I do not find much about its capabilities in neutral sources . Since it has got a gas-turbine engine which are known as fuel guzzlers , so its range is limited .
And if Al-Khalid is such a super tank then why Pakistan is buying more t80s ??

T-80 is a Russian tank marketed by Ukraine . Its engine and other problems led to the manufacture of T90 , how can these T80s going to beat T90s ?


And about tank's active or passive defence , I think Pakistan has got nothing . Pakistan's tanks has got nothing like Arena type defence suites or electronic jamming capability (which India has got from Russia, Israel, France).


Then how Pakistani tanks are having an edge against Indians ???
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Old July 26th, 2005   #10
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Re: Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks

ArjunMK1, we know you're very patriotic, but here we try to keep that to ourselves and look at issues objectively. From your post, clear ignorance of weapons systems is glaring; in this case, the Al-Zarar and Al-Khalid Pakistani tanks. Please read up on these issues and then make a case. There have been exhaustive discussions on MBTs here at DT, so if you don't mind searching a bit, I'd suggest you read them up carefully.

Al-Zarar has 55 modifications to it while Al-Khalid is Pakistan's indigenous MBT. India bought T-90s from Russia to counter Pakistani Al-Khalids and T-80UDs because its own Arjun MBT failed even after 25 years of R & D to meet its army's requirements. Pakistan only bought a limited number of T-80UDs to fill the gap in its MBT forces with a hi-tech MBT while Al-Khalid was still in development phase. That is no longer the case!
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Old July 26th, 2005   #11
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Re: Pakistani tanks vs Indian tanks

Check this thread:
Which is the World's Best Tank??

Also, there is thread dedicated to Arjun and Al-khalid somewhere in the Land Forces forum.
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