Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

[Soner1980]

Undersecretariat for Defense industries website announced that Pakistan will join Turkish MBT project to develop state of the art Turkish Battle Tank.

After Otokar, FNSS, MKEK, ASELSAN and HAVELSAN, the Pakistani firm producing the Al Khalid MBT will transfer the technological support for the production of advanced passive armor.

The Al Khalid, known for it's unique feature of automatic target tracking system used by the Tank is from the French MBT Leclerc. No other tanks have this feature. I also know that about 100 delegation large, Turkish engineers, politicians and businessmen traveled to Pakistan to discuss about defensive cooperation.

It is clear that Turkey would develop it's MBT with Pakistani assistance.

 

[SABRE]

Turkish defence officials have visited Pakistan in past few months & also the vice versa, I thought they were discussing small weapons guns, rockets, launchers etc. But this is some what bigger than that.

Anyways, do u have link to the news? also do u have details on next Generation Turkish tank? what are Turkies requirement? etc .

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

I remember a project presented by GIAT industries (the manufacturer of the Leclerc MBT) for the next Turkish MBT.
It was basically a Leclerc with a lot of enhancements like full 360° protection against RPG type projectile (with full composite armoured side skirts), an electronic warfare suite with laser detector and jammers, and a remote weapon station.
This tank was likely to be build in Turkey with the cooperation of GIAT by I don't know the current status of the programm.

 

[Skywalker]

I read also rumors in some other Forums that Pakistan sell Cruise-Missile Know-How to Turkey.

 

[Big-E]

Why doesn't Turkey just buy production rights to the Al-Khalid? She's a match for the Leopard 2, probably better than something Turkey is going to come up with.

 

[Soner1980]

About the offer from GIAT, yes European firms are very serious, no jokes but the damn EU politicians don't want to do good for us. First the worst of it: The so called Armenian Genocide (what has never hapened) and the Cyprus thing.

If France want that Turkey do for a 'big' business, than France must be in the same way with Turkish politics or else there will be a breakdown in the production line and Turkey changes to another product like the French ATGM Eryx wich has been cancelled and Turkey is now looking to built indigenous variant.

Till then, Turkey bewares of to buy (or to do business) something from EU countries and besides European high quality products, Turkey chooses to buy or manufacture weapons and use to all threats like the EU supported PKK/KONGRA-GEL and the DHKP-C terrorists. EU countries banned to use EU origin weapons to guerilla's. (because the rebels are the pions of EU imperialism I think, we shall use weapons with EU origin against EU in case of a war...)

The EuroCopter lobbied for Turkey to slam the law article that calling the Armenian Genocide does not exist, brings you to a penalty of some 40.000 euro and 1 year jail. Damned. Therefore the ATAK (Turkish Gunship project) to co-produce 90 gunships has been postponed. I think Turkey chooses the Italian Mangusta or the Rooivalk (translated from NL = Red Valk or Falcon??) Because the big offer from Eurocopter for the jointly manufacture of the Tigre.

About the Pakistani arms dealers & technicians, yes there was told that it was only small arms. to camoflage the project and therefore Turkey also produces rifles, howitsers and rockets. Vice versa to Pakistan. For both countries producing small arms is like buying candy in the shop. But building MBT's armor is a very new technology to Turkey. Turkey does not exist of the Technology to built composite armor. Even Pakistan has aquired composite armor plating in the mid 1990's when the tank plant in Taxila. The Pakistani's got the Type-85 from China and have made big advances like composite armor plating, thermal sights, auto loader, 125mm gun, etc.. The Al Khalid is far better than the original Type-85II now (The First was also called Type-85IIAP). US$20 million were reportedly spent on the indigenous development of the Al-Khalid tanks over a period of eight years. Heavy Industries Taxila started production of Al-Khalid in November 2000.

The technology to produce MBT is also 'fresh' in Pakistani technicians' brains. So, like 1990's guided 227mm MLRS rocket transfer (for the M270 MLRS), this time is to transfer bigger technologies to Turkey, and Turkey also want to transfer tech to Pakistan. Pakistan has been a close ally, often called brothers because the Turkish Air Forces help in 1971 in the Indo-Pakistani war.

Eneough today, let's wait for your reply now...

 

[Soner1980]

Maybe it will happen, but with NATO standard version in Turkish hands...

Why doesn't Turkey just buy production rights to the Al-Khalid? She's a match for the Leopard 2, probably better than something Turkey is going to come up with.

 

[SABRE]

About the Pakistani arms dealers & technicians, yes there was told that it was only small arms. to camoflage the project and therefore Turkey also produces rifles, howitsers and rockets. Vice versa to Pakistan. For both countries producing small arms is like buying candy in the shop.

I dont think Pakistan hides/camoflage technology it already has officially displayed. It has been shown in past three IDEAS. Keeping it open would also help in the export department.

Perhaps the Turkey dint want to spread the news till an agreement was reached.

The Pakistani's got the Type-85 from China and have made big advances like composite armor plating, thermal sights, auto loader, 125mm gun, etc.. The Al Khalid is far better than the original Type-85II now (The First was also called Type-85IIAP)

Little correction. It was Type-90II not Type-85II. I think you are confusing ur self with T-80ud & T-84 Pakistan bought from Ukrain.

Pakistan wanted to start building tank from the start. But the helping partner China said it would take long time to go through the process & by than India would be done with Arjun. Instead they said to take an already developed tank "as a base" & build on it & put it through the evolution process in a way that the other tank is removed from the base. China had developed T-90 & T-90II but they were not satisfied with it & starting working on T-98. However, Pakistan choose left out T-90II as a base.

The T-90II also had an issue with engine. Its engine did not satisfiy the Pakistan army in desertic conditions. But an unllikely country decided to join hand. Ukrain sold their diesel engines which were designed to perform in desert & hot conditions.

Today the T-90II is almost gone from the base.

The first batch of Al-Khalid was of basic version. These were known as Phase-3 tanks. But the ones built from 2002 & on wards are Phase-4 tanks with all the high-tech equipement.

 

[BilalK]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.

 

[SABRE]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.

I think the Al-Khalid II is the Phase-4 version (already in production & induction) for which Pakistan has developed new avionics & also bought technology from French & Germans (no official confirmation on this though)

 

[BilalK]

I think the Al-Khalid II is the Phase-4 version (already in production & induction) for which Pakistan has developed new avionics & also bought technology from French & Germans (no official confirmation on this though)

From what I've been told the Al Khalid II will be in production sometime in 2009 and be inducted in large numbers from 2012. I've heard that it will be in the league of T-98/99 and use German, French and newer Chinese technology. It will be the mainstay of the Pakistan Army for years to come. This is not official information though, but I got it from a well informed defence analyist who works closely with the gov't.

However basic point is, the Al Khalid II will be many folds better than the current Al Khalid; in fact the project name is Al Khalid II - the actual name of the tank is likely to be different. IMO Pakistan and Turkey could be developing a new state of the art tank - which to Pakistan will be Al Khalid II.

Should also add, a lot of Pakistan's requirements are startingly similar to those of Turkey's; requirement of new advanced attack helicopters, new transport helicopters, APCs, artillery, aircraft, etc.

 

[beleg]

I'd like to add a few comments of my own to this thread,

We all know because of political and economical reasons the first Tank tender had failed in 2000, despite the fact that Leopard 2 had won the competition.

Meanwhile Turkey started 2 simultaneous projects,

*Modernisation of M-60s by Israel to similar configuration of M-60 Sabra
*Modernisation of Leo1A1s with advanced FCS but same body.

The first deal with Israel also brought the technology of 120mm smoothbore gun and the Knight fire control system. Meanwhile Aselsan was developing its own fire control system named Eagleeye.

After these projects started and Leo2A4s acquired as stop gaps Turkey decided to go on with a nationalised tank project with technical aissistance from a foreign company. although the local company to build the tanks are still not selected, technical support and assistance will be sought from

* Agency for Defence Development [S. Korea],
* GIAT Industries [France],
* Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH & Co. KG [Germany], and
* Rheinmetall LandSysteme GmbH [Germany].

So we can clearly expect the tank to have European features ,not Russian or Chinese or Pakistani. The tank most likely will have the same gun whose tech was bought during Sabra modernisation, MTU&Renk or similar power pack to reduce logistical problems, a new generation Aselsan Fire control system and other Aselsan electronics (with netcentric warware capability) based on Aselsans own knowledge and know how gained by Knight tech transfer.

The main problem in a Turkish tank design would be acquiring state of the art armor technology.Thus it is always a possiblity that only an armor transfer is possible and necessary. Such transfer from Pakistan could give the project a kick start that it needs, since R&D ing a proper armor would take decades.

The recent issue of S&H stated that Pakistani officials were interested in the Aselsan electronics and FCS for their Al Khalids and a deal could be soon signed to provide the systems to Pakistan. Perhaps there were talks about exchanging such technologies.

We have to wait for a while longer to see the path of this project..

 

[Soner1980]

I am with your opinion Beleg.

The Savunma Sanayi Müstesarligi (Defense Secretariat of Turkey) announced it from the news agencies (look http://gbulten.ssm.gov.tr/arsiv/2006/06/19/gun.htm in Turkish) and I have understand that the armor technology would be supplied by Pakistan. That Turkey will join the Al Khalid II project, yes it is possible or else Turkey is able to design it's own, only the armor tech is missing in 'Tech. inventory' of Turkey to produce a main battle tank.

Like Beleg wrote, Turkey is now been transfered by our strategic partner Israel for a new 120mm smoothbore compact tank gun that has almost the penetrating capability with the M256 120mm SB TG, but with the capability to fire the LAser Homing Anti Tank (LAHAT) missile.

And ofcource, the project is aimed for after 2010 mass production to get rid of the obsolete nearly 3000 M48A5T1/T2. The M60 series will be upgraded to the Sabra Mk.2 equivelant with minor differences, Leo-1A1A1 to the Leo-1 Volkan.

Turkey has the electronic technology and the hull building plant. After the composite armor plating technology transfer and initial production of the TR MBT project, year 2012, we Turks, want to see our first National MBT and Long range missiles on 30 august and 29 october Military parades with flying Turkish JSF over the parade terrain, and new Turkish built (ATAK project) gunships to show what we can...

 

[tphuang]

Also do not forget that now Pakistan is gearing towards development of the Al Khalid II program; the new tank will be based off the Al Khalid, but will on the level of the Chinese T-98/99. The 'Al Khalid II' will form the mainstay of the Pakistan Army from 2012 - it is possible that this is the tank Pakistan and Turkey may be developing together, for both nations.

Turkish-Pakistan relations will definitely increase over time.

at the level of T-98/99? Do the developers know the capabilities of T-98/99? You should visit the SDF's T-99 thread, we have someone who claims to work close to the project. I didn't get an idea of how much money China spent developing some of the components on T-99 until reading what he wrote. I doubt Pakistan has the same development capability or the financial backing.

 

[Soner1980]

at the level of T-98/99? Do the developers know the capabilities of T-98/99? You should visit the SDF's T-99 thread, we have someone who claims to work close to the project. I didn't get an idea of how much money China spent developing some of the components on T-99 until reading what he wrote. I doubt Pakistan has the same development capability or the financial backing.

I think Pakistan have transfered tech from European countries like France or Germany, sure they will, maybe better than Type-98G because China has an arms embargo and must find out by it self.

China's Type-98 or the Type-98G/99 is a very good tank that can match the M1A2 abrams in combat capability, only the survival ratio when armor is penetrated is very low (engine compartiment especially and the fuel depot), but also this will be worked out by the time I think. You can built a tank in 3 month, but training highly experienced tank crews can take years...

 

[Big-E]

China's Type-98 or the Type-98G/99 is a very good tank that can match the M1A2 abrams in combat capability,

A match for the M1A1 maybe...

 

[fightermki]

type98/99 tanks built by china are based on t-72 source sinodefence.com

its known fact that pak tanks are based on chinese tech <globalsecurity.com> so how u say its a match for m1 class of tanks dont be over optimistic., leopard2 is one of the best tank on planet now.
moreover pak tanks are not battle tested weighing just 45t shows the armour of al khalid. if it was that al khalid style tanks can have kills on m1 then pak doesnot need t80's . hope usa asks pakistan 2 give al khalid rifled gun's technology 2 them coz it can go through chobam armour of m1.
just do some research before making comments on ultra maordern weapon systems like leopard

 

[Soner1980]

T-72? Yes, so what? Only the basis is a T-72. But the systems on it are all different and more advanced. For example: The Al Khalid has a thermal viewer, the T-72 not. The Al Khalid has a computerized system to 'lock-on' to the target (French Technique for capability). The T-72 is far behind by today's standards in technology.

The hull is a look a like, or better called a longer version of the original T-72 hull.

The Turret is also brand new. So, this is enough to 'repel' your story about '...the same like a T-72'.

And meaning that the Al Khalid is slightly superior to the US M1A1 and very close to the M1A2, but far of the M1A2 SEP because of more modern electronics. The whole US army does not have a lot of SEP variant I have read somewere but most of them are M1A1, or upgraded to M1A2, and a very little portion of them are with the Special Enhencements Package.

Still, the M1A1 is a formidable MBT in the field, but it is far behind to the German counterpart: Leopard-2A5

 

[SABRE]

Again a mistake made above...It was T-90I that is in the league of T-72. Not the T-98/99 series. The T-98/99 are in the league of T-90 Russians Tanks. The T-90II Chinese was taken as a base not as a whole tank. It has significantly been modified, uograded & mordernized by HIT since the Al-Khalid development. According to HIT officials by 2010 very little of original T-90II would be left in Al-Khalid. Al-Khalid's Phase-3 version's current capability are similar to that of T-90 (Russian) while Phase-4 (with Pakistani, Chinese, French & German technology) is more advance thena Russian T-90. (Note: Saudis are interested in buying Al-Khalid Phase-4 as well).


Pakistan bought T-80ud & T-84 because there was hurrdle in the development of Al-Khalid & Pakistan seriously needed new Tanks in late 1980s & early 1990s. Al-Khalid was facing engine problems but that was solved when Ukrain joined the hands. They sold the Diesel engine for Al-Khalid but it would have still taken some time for it to be inducted. Hence Pakistan bought T-80ud & T-84 from Ukrain.
Al-Khalid's capabilities are way more than T-80 series.

 

[Soner1980]

The Phase 4 of the Al Khalid can match the Type-98G type as well I think because of the Euro technologies.

But about the armor of the Pakistani MBT, what type of composite will it be? Laminate armor like in the Leo-2A4 is not composite don't put that in 'the soup' plz.

I have seen very interesting and strange things on TRT (Turkish TV channel) when the BOREN firm has shown hardened steel with Bor or Borax element. (66% of Bor is located in Turkish soil) and with borax, you can make steel more resistent and stronger. Wood less flamamble. New armor plate? Maybe with composite, but how it will be it's not clear. The US is also experimenting wich has 13% of borax mines in US terriories and it has a ban to exploit it and pressures Turkey also to not to exploit it. It is also a new type of energy. The Brittish is experiencing with electro armor or something ???

Gentlemen, again, what type of composite is the armor of the Al Khalid? Please your answer...