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Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey.

This is a discussion on Pakistan to transfer composite armor technology to Turkey. within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by orko_8 Merkava IV is not offered for export, although some non-critical technologies are used in Sabra upgrade ...


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Old June 21st, 2006   #31
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Merkava IV is not offered for export, although some non-critical technologies are used in Sabra upgrade package, as far as I know. Besides, completely designed for solely IDF's own operational needs, Merkava series do not 100% fit into other armies' technical requirements.
isn't markava primarily designed for policing operations for urbun combat. Not sure how it would perform in actual MBT engagements!

Any thoughts
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Old June 21st, 2006   #32
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isn't markava primarily designed for policing operations for urbun combat. Not sure how it would perform in actual MBT engagements!

Any thoughts
Well, as far as I can tell, the Merkava's were originally designed for tank-on-tank combat in open terrain just like most other MBT's.
The newest design, the Mk.IV, has had major upgrades built in to the design that allows it to function in MOUT combat, whilst retaining it's already-excellent anti-MBT qualities.
It has a list of innovations that make it well suited as a tank destroyer.
These include:
1. An advanced, laser-ranging FCS, with thermal, and EO modes, and a fully-stabilized turret/main gun. The tank is network-ready, and compatible with the American computerized battle-management sytem.
2. A digital, ten-round auto-loader, with 48-round shell capacity. The ammo storage is fully shielded, and seperate from the crew compartment.
3. The full range of full-caliber ammunition, including the LAHAT guided ATGM.
4. An advanced and highly effective modular armor, and computer-enhanced 360 degree protection from ATGMs, and RPGs.
5. The unique design provides for greater protection of the crew, by locating the powerpack to the front of the tank. This enables the tank to absorb more damage than other tanks, and possibly even retain mobility after being hit. The crew compartment is over-pressurized, NBC-protected, with AC and heating. Additionally, each crew station has individual climate controls. Due to the large turret, the crew compartment seems to be quite spacious, increasing the crew's comfort during long-duration operations.
6. The powerpack is a 1500hp American-made diesel, optimized for desert climates. It provides excellent fuel economy, and mobility comparable with any other tank in it's weight class, in all terrain conditions.
7. The internal compartment in the rear allows the tank to carry up to eight infantrymen, a command element, or three litters for emergency transport.
It also provides the four-man crew with an additional escape hatch, if they must escape from the tank. Additionally, this compartment can be used to store extra fuel and ammunition for high-endurance operations.

There is no question as to whether or not the Merkava is perfectly suited as an MBT in any role. The real questions seem to be: Will Israel allow it to be exported, and how many can a country afford to buy?

Last edited by Wild Weasel; June 21st, 2006 at 04:02 PM.
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Old June 21st, 2006   #33
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You don't have to Insult people to bring your point across, Watch it!!


Insulting? Oh, i'm sorry, I didn't know analogies could be so offensive seriously come on now, I wasn't personally attacking who he was or where he came from.



"
By the way, why should Pakistan change to a rifled tank gun and get rid of the 125mm SB? The 2A46 based Chinese version is not further developed. I mean, when the gun is cleaned out of 'faults' the 125mm tank gun can also have the same accuracy as the 120mm M256. The penetrating capability is almost the same I think. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mac...enetration.htm for Projectiles armor protection. I don't know of it's authenticity but it is believeable information."




Sonner, being that most, if not all tank/round armor penetration and armor protection levels are "classified" I doubt it's too accurate.
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Old June 21st, 2006   #34
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Well I must admit that I find this discussion about Al-Khalid weary interesting... I mean here we have upgraded copy of Chinese designed tank(which lost in competition whit type99 for new PLA tank) whit engine from Ukraine and whit French FCS and some people is talking like it is most advanced tank in the world...

If Turkey buy Al Khalid they will get unproven 45t tank that has all design flaws from T-72 series, unstandardized main gun(IIRC 120mm is still NATO caliber) and inferior armor... IF they want tank in that weight class they would be better if they look at GIAT T-21 turret project on body of Ukraine T-80 tank or Israeli Merkava...
But thats joust my opinion...
Turkey is not going to buy or co-produce the Al Khalid. But only want to buy the composite armor plating technology to design and manufacture a domestic MBT in Turkey.

That will not a T-80, nor Leopard-2A6 and surely not the Merkava mk.4

The Leopard-2A4 is only to close the gap till 2012 when the first batch MBT's will roll from the industry.

Turkey has everything to produce a locally designed tank. Really everything. Turkey has developed the Volkan fire control system for the Leo-1 to upgrade to today's standards (3rd generation). Getting the Knight III FCS transfered by IMI, the Compact Tank Gun 120mm Smoothbore system, plant to produce large and heavy vehicles, electronics, etc..

The lack of composite armor plating technology makes it unable to produce a good armored MBT. The all remaining tanks in Turkish inventory will be upgraded (especially the M60 and Leopard-1 series) with the gained technology. The 3000 M48 series tanks will be all scrapped or converted to other type of vehicles (e.g. ARV, AA-Tank, Hauler, Heavy armored APC, etc.)

Some of the M48A5T2 can also be upgunned with the 120mm SB CTG and passive armor plates. But the Turkish Army will decide. We will see...
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Old June 21st, 2006   #35
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Insulting? Oh, i'm sorry, I didn't know analogies could be so offensive seriously come on now, I wasn't personally attacking who he was or where he came from.



"
By the way, why should Pakistan change to a rifled tank gun and get rid of the 125mm SB? The 2A46 based Chinese version is not further developed. I mean, when the gun is cleaned out of 'faults' the 125mm tank gun can also have the same accuracy as the 120mm M256. The penetrating capability is almost the same I think. See http://homepage.ntlworld.com/bob_mac...enetration.htm for Projectiles armor protection. I don't know of it's authenticity but it is believeable information."




Sonner, being that most, if not all tank/round armor penetration and armor protection levels are "classified" I doubt it's too accurate.
No it is just some estimations. Most tanks are all classified and the armor thickness is not 'sold' on the street. But somethimes it will 'leak' or in conflicts it will come arise. In the Gulf war, we all see what your countries Abrams did on the field with Iraqi T-72 and the Chinese Type-59 and Type-69 tanks. It was realy shooting on wooded mock-up tanks and at 3000 meters destroying a T-72 wich was still modern in the early 1990's. The T-72's armor is classified, but it is estimated that the thickness is known. Some said 280mm RHA and some 450mm RHA without ERA on it. I also doubt it because when all this is known, than Russia has to scrap it's T-90 fleet. I use it for estimation purposes only.

The Gulf War was clear that the 120mm SB gun was enough to destroy everage quality tanks in far ranges.
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Old June 21st, 2006   #36
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The Gulf War was clear that the 120mm SB gun was enough to destroy everage quality tanks in far ranges.

...and even 105mm with APFSDS-T on most occasions, as USMC M60's proved on Iraqi T-62/72's.
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Old June 21st, 2006   #37
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Shooting with old 125mm guns with loaded with poor BM-9 ammo at M1A1s is not what I would call the ultimate armor test.
Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. Saying that any T-Series tank is crap because of the bad behaviour of T-72M export models is also not very realistic.
I also don't understand the hype about the Al-Khalid. For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons) and had some, now solved, problems during its introduction.
On the other side the Al-Khalid (Developed by a country which is NOT as advanced and experienced as the western armor building countrys) shall now be the king if the hill with its 46 tons.
It may fit well into the circumstances of pak landscape and style of fighting but it is for sure not the master machine like it is called here so often.

I also don't like rifled guns for MBTs. They have some positive qualities if you use HESH rounds but for KE rounds asmoothbore is the best choice. And with the the new MPAT and HE rounds introduced by the US, Germany and Sweden there are enough possibilities.
I am sure that turkey is able to build a good MBT but as said before by some of you guys the armor is the key.
And if you want to have the newest one you really should try to get it from the western country or Israel. (BTW the Merkava Mrk.IV also has a high-tech target-tracking system but no real auto loader. The loader in it just puts out the right sort of ammo but the human loader still have to put it into the gun.)

But blaming the EU for not wanting to give you the newest toys is for sure not right. For example we would have sold you the newest Leo II with all the gimmicks the Greeks or Spanish also have. But you want pure tech. That is something we just don't earn enough money with.

PS: I know I should not go political here but saying that the Armenian Genocide never happened is if I would say that Germany never touched any jews during WWII. Just imagine how yu would react.
I get really angry if I read things like that.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #38
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Waylander ,I am not sure if the western countries want to share the armor tech or sell the know how for it. See the Korean example. They have started with K-1 ( which is M1 alike) exactly like we are trying to do now and the armor in K-1 is supposed to be weaker than its contemporaries. Now they have been working on that armor and other stuff for decades and producing K-2, which will probably have a more advanced version of the same armor.

Nobody with some sense will expect a state of the art full armor tech to be shared but i think we can handle the beginning phase with whatever we got. The deal also has to be cost efficient and even exportable since the region has alot of countries that might want to change their MBT fleets. (See the Turkish IFV exports to Asian and ME countries.) Thus its even more difficult to get western armor tech here.

And for your PS. Yes please refain from making political statements, i dont understand how western ears be deaf and eyes be blind to the Muslims that were massacred by Armenians and their Russian partners from 1887 and until 1915.. You know what, I get really angry if I read things like that too..
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #39
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Shooting with old 125mm guns with loaded with poor BM-9 ammo at M1A1s is not what I would call the ultimate armor test.
Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. Saying that any T-Series tank is crap because of the bad behaviour of T-72M export models is also not very realistic.
I also don't understand the hype about the Al-Khalid. For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons) and had some, now solved, problems during its introduction.
On the other side the Al-Khalid (Developed by a country which is NOT as advanced and experienced as the western armor building countrys) shall now be the king if the hill with its 46 tons.
It may fit well into the circumstances of pak landscape and style of fighting but it is for sure not the master machine like it is called here so often.


PS: I know I should not go political here but saying that the Armenian Genocide never happened is if I would say that Germany never touched any jews during WWII. Just imagine how yu would react.
I get really angry if I read things like that.
Al-Khalid has Chinese combat systems, it's not like MBT technology is too hard to keep up with. It's a relatively cheap field of expertise and China certainly has the resources to stay near the top of the field.

Yes... please stop with the denials, it's very insulting to our intelligence.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #40
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Which denials do you mean? The PS one or the part about MBTs?

About Al-Khalid. I didn't talk about the general combat systems of the Al-Khalid. I doubt that China and Pakistan are able to produce a state-of-the-art passive armor protection which makes the Al-Khalid withstand the same threats with its 46 tons like the M1A2s or Leo IIEs with their nearly 70 tons.

Soner and I agreed in another thread that many countrys nowadays are able to build the high-tech electronics and optics required for a modern MBT. Guns, ammo und much more armor are the real problems.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #41
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Indeed Waylander. The hardest accomplishment for Turkey would be the armor because as i have explained in this and the Leo2A4 transfer thread Turkey has enough tech in the areas regarding electronics and gun. The engine & transmission is another issue but it can be readily bought from various sources..

I dont know if its feasible but we can use the basic armor tech gained from Pakistan and add armor packs which are bought directly from western sources over it. Similar to Leo2A4 to Leo2 PSO modernisation which was displayed in Eurosatory 2006.

The GIAT offer for TSK is very similar to their Azure version of Leclerc but i am not really sure if TSK wants autoloader.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #42
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Talking about any armor scales is also nonsense. Nobody here knows the real strength and if somebody knows he wouldn't tell. ... For example many people here are sceptical about the Leclerc because he is smaller than the most modern western MBT variants (54 tons)
It weighs about the same as the first models of M1 & Leopard 2, but is smaller. The weight of Leclerc is roughly proportional to the size, when compared to a Leopard 2A5 or M1A2*, so I see no reason why Leclerc shouldn't have similar armour thickness.

*Weight of US tanks is often overstated, as a US ton is 2000lb, i.e. 907 kg. Traditional UK ton is 2240lb, so slightly more than metric - but modern UK tank weights are expressed in metric weights.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #43
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Turkey just want the tech of producing multi layered laminate or composite armor plating. The Al Khalids armor is also not the best, but making it very light with such protection is almost optimal. The Leo-2A5/6 has better armoring level but it must weigh 20 tons more. The engine is smaller and thus making it slightly more economic than the others. The gun has almost excellent capabilities but not like the Leo-2A5. The computer systems are outstanding, don't know if it is close to German counterparts but it is Western based tech. from France. Thermal viewer, 2nd generation I think. A very good tank when used properly and can be deadly like other modern MBT's.

Yes like before told by other members here, the Al Khalid is not one of the best but it comes close to todays standards.

If Turkey produces a MBT also weighing about 55 tons with the same armor type of the Al Khalid, Volkan II electronics, FCS, Thermal sights, 1200-1500hp TDi than it will be good as like the Leopard-2A6 in 2012. Till then there will be a Leo-2A7 and Turkey will be one step back from Germany but equal to Russian or even Israeli MBT's I think.
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #44
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Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...

While I completely understand Turkish needs for development of indigenous MBT I joust think that they could find more capable partners then Pakistan to help them whit development of composite armor plating(while Israel maybe would not sell tech developed for Merkava mk4 they could sell armor tech from Mk3 version especially since IIRC they offered Merkava mk.3 to Turkey in late 1990s...).
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Old June 22nd, 2006   #45
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Well I certainly don t wont to sound to skeptic but I have some doubts about Al Khalids armor protection. You see I cant quite understand all this fuss about it. I mean it is Chinese 1990s tech and if you look at new Chinese type99 MBT which has improved version of that armor and weights 54t I joust cant see how Al Khalids armor will provide decent level of protection... For that matter I also doubt that type99 provides armor protection in the level of LeoII A5...
The armour of T-90II was replaced by HIT when Al-Khalid went into development. It was replaced with a modular armour, but what type of armour is not known nor are HIT officials willing to answer. [The Pakistanis & Chinese have habbit of aquiring technologies via illegal means/black markets -- in such conditions the officials keep things secret. i.e. About few yrs back it was reported that Pakistan (& China) achieved modular composite aromour know how from Israel. Now Pakistan has no relations with Israel at all. Whether this is true or false it would never been know. Pakistani Parliment raised the question but they were hushed in no time.]
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