NATO loses in Serbia!!!
- Thread starter goran
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Goran, what do you want people to discuss? Or maybe, the question should be how do you want people to respond to your claim?
Atleast build an argument that's more than one line and is supported by an array of sources (website links, news reports, magazine article, etc.).
Atleast build an argument that's more than one line and is supported by an array of sources (website links, news reports, magazine article, etc.).
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- #5
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NATO said it had only lost one F-117 in 79 days of war. Take a look at the above F-16 wreck to understand why the Truth in Media termed NATO spokespeople the "lie and deny" news spinners.
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- #6
- [size=-1]24.03. one NATO aircraft (some sources say F-117) was hit by an air to air missile fired by pilot Iljo Arizanov flying MiG-29 over Kosovo[/size]
- [size=-1]during the first week of aggression, one NATO helicopter with rescue troops and a pilot that was picked up was shot down somewhere in Montenegro. Pilot was probably the one flying Sea Harrier that was crashed near Virpazar[/size]
- [size=-1]according to very reliable information, in the first two weeks, at least 4 German Tornadoes were shot down. The crew of one aircraft is know to have ejected and was captured shortly after, the crew of second Tornado was killed (it is possible that this is a Tornado that was shot down till 17:00 26.03. 12km south of Pancevo). Also, one German Tornado was shot down on 29.03. and the crew ejected (it is also possible that this Tornado is in fact the craft that was downed near the village of Gakovo)[/size]
- [size=-1]till 17:00 26.03. two UAVs were shot down, one 12 km south of Bogatic and the other one 4 km south of Orahovac[/size]
- [size=-1]one UAV was shot down on Sunday, 28.03. (possibly in the region of village Gakovo, near Sombor)[/size]
- [size=-1]till 17:00 26.03. at least one F-16C was shot down in air to air combat 7 km south of Pancevo. Military sources and some eyewitnesses say it was shot down by Yugoslav MiG-29. Another 4 F-16 were shot down by air defense units in the third wave of attacks. Information confirmed by Russian Defense Ministry[/size]
- [size=-1]28/29.03. one NATO helicopter was shot down, most probably HH-60G[/size]
- [size=-1]17.04. in the village of Rokci, near Aleksandrovac, wreckage of one F-16 was found[/size]
- [size=-1]so far, 3 F-117A Night Hawks shot down (including the one in Budjanovci). Second F-117 downed by MiG-29[/size]
- [size=-1]according to some reliable information, at least one (probably two) EA-6Bs were shot down[/size]
- [size=-1]two aircraft shot down by Lt. Vladan Zivkovic with Strela missile system (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's unit)[/size]
- [size=-1]one aircraft shot down by soldier Nikola Mileusnic with Strela-1M missile system (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's unit)[/size]
- [size=-1]one NATO plane downed by Janko Milosevic (Lt.Col. Momir Ivkovic's air defense unit)[/size]
- [size=-1]one aircraft down by Sasa Kostadinovic with Strela-2M missile system[/size]
- [size=-1]till 05.05. Major Zoran Velickovic's air defense unit shot down 2 NATO planes[/size]
- [size=-1]till 12.05. Lt.Col. Nikola Blazevic's air defense unit shot down 3 NATO aircraft[/size]
- [size=-1]till 12.05. Lt.Col. Zoran Damnjanovic's air defense unit hit and damaged 9 NATO planes (5 of which crashed within Yugoslav territory) and 2 NATO UAVs[/size]
- [size=-1]on 06.05. one of the four planes that was shot down over Nis, was Belgian F-16. Pilot was captured as soon as he touched the ground[/size]
- [size=-1]one NATO plane crashed near Petrovcic, 15km west of Belgrade[/size]
- [size=-1]till 20.05. Major Stojan Simijonovic's air defense unit shot down 5 NATO aircraft[/size]
- [size=-1]till 20.05. Lt.Col. Cira Simic's air defense unit shot down 13 airplanes and several UAVs[/size]
- [size=-1]till 20.05. Radovan Curcic's unit shot down 2 planes and one UAV[/size]
- [size=-1]on 28.03. one F-16 shot down over Kosovo by Lt.Col. Cira Simic's unit[/size]
- [size=-1]one Tornado shot down over Kosovo by Sgt. Branko Tintor with Kub-M SAM (Lt.Col. Cira Simic's unit)[/size]
- [size=-1]according to some reports, one plane crashed after 20.04. in the village of Vrazalice, area between Gorazde, Rogatica and Visegrad. Local Serb police unit that tried to access the site was blocked by SFOR troops[/size]
- [size=-1]according to reports, on 18.04. around 10:30, one US EC-130E Rivet Rider crashed near the village Tanusevci, Macedonia, after being hit by Yugoslav air defense over Kosovo. Crew of 13 probably killed. Local police unit tried to access the site but was prevented by NATO troops[/size]
Ok bud, what the heck you're trying to prove? NATO lied?
I do not recall a single official report that stated only one aircraft was lost during the NATO air campaign in Yugoslavia back in 1999. Please provide the source of that information from or I remove the topic.
I do not recall a single official report that stated only one aircraft was lost during the NATO air campaign in Yugoslavia back in 1999. Please provide the source of that information from or I remove the topic.
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- #8
"BELGRADE - Even western sources admit that NATO has lost ove 70 aircraft and some 200 cruise missiles in the aggression on the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, the latest issue of the magazine Vojska said.
However, NATO headquarters continues hiding its huge losses, while admitting "the high expertise and training" of the Yugoslav Army anti-aircraft defence.
Vojska said that the discord on numerous issues is creating confusion within NATO ranks and is growing daily due to the disatisfaction of the pilots who "without a clear idea and tactically justified aims" are being sent into high-risk actions. Recently even their ejection mechanisms have been turned off, it said.
Yugoslav Army anti-aircraft units, by applying special tactics, fast manoeuvres and certain innovations, are creating "great difficulties for the enemy aircraft."
Yugoslav Army officers have demonstrated that "our strategy, tactics, knowhow and imagination" surpass the schematic variants of the NATO generals "who admit with difficulty that the Yugoslav Army has surprised and outwitted them."
Vojska said that this is understandable since NATO has lost ten percent of its 700 engaged combat aircraft. This figure shows that NATO "is deeply in the red which will be justified with difficulty before those who tried to talk them out of waging a war on sovereign Yugoslavia."
(source: Tanjug, 05-11-99)
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However, NATO headquarters continues hiding its huge losses, while admitting "the high expertise and training" of the Yugoslav Army anti-aircraft defence.
Vojska said that the discord on numerous issues is creating confusion within NATO ranks and is growing daily due to the disatisfaction of the pilots who "without a clear idea and tactically justified aims" are being sent into high-risk actions. Recently even their ejection mechanisms have been turned off, it said.
Yugoslav Army anti-aircraft units, by applying special tactics, fast manoeuvres and certain innovations, are creating "great difficulties for the enemy aircraft."
Yugoslav Army officers have demonstrated that "our strategy, tactics, knowhow and imagination" surpass the schematic variants of the NATO generals "who admit with difficulty that the Yugoslav Army has surprised and outwitted them."
Vojska said that this is understandable since NATO has lost ten percent of its 700 engaged combat aircraft. This figure shows that NATO "is deeply in the red which will be justified with difficulty before those who tried to talk them out of waging a war on sovereign Yugoslavia."
(source: Tanjug, 05-11-99)
postamble();
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- #9
An American F-16 fighter went down over western Serbia early on Sunday.
The Yugoslav media says it was shot down; Nato officials say an investigation into the crash is being carried out.
A second plane has also crashed in the Adriatic, while attempting to land on an aircraft.
Nato says the American AV8B Harrier crashed while on a training mission and that the pilot was rescued.
[font=Arial, Helvetica]Diplomatic Correspondent Humphrey Hawksley: "The F-16 is Nato's workhorse"[/font]The F-16 pilot was rescued by allied forces after he ejected from the plane over Serbia.
Lieutenant Colonel Michael Kaemnerer, at Nato military headquarters in Brussels, said the pilot was back at an allied base undergoing medical examination.
Belgrade city radio Studio B said that a Nato plane had been downed near Sabac, a town 80km (50 miles) west of Belgrade.
The radio station quoted unofficial sources as saying that the aircraft had been shot down at around 0300 local time (0100 GMT) on Sunday.
Aircraft losses disputed
The warplane was the second Nato has acknowledged lost in action over Yugoslavia since the air campaign started.
An American F-117 Stealth fighter crashed over Yugoslavia on 27 March, three days into the campaign. The pilot of that plane was also rescued.
A handful of unmanned drones have also gone down.
The Serb media regularly reports the shooting down of Nato aircraft, but these claims have been denied by the alliance. Many of the F-16s flown by the alliance have been based at Aviano in Italy.
source:BBC news
A second plane has also crashed in the Adriatic, while attempting to land on an aircraft.
Nato says the American AV8B Harrier crashed while on a training mission and that the pilot was rescued.
Lieutenant Colonel Michael Kaemnerer, at Nato military headquarters in Brussels, said the pilot was back at an allied base undergoing medical examination.
Belgrade city radio Studio B said that a Nato plane had been downed near Sabac, a town 80km (50 miles) west of Belgrade.
The radio station quoted unofficial sources as saying that the aircraft had been shot down at around 0300 local time (0100 GMT) on Sunday.
Aircraft losses disputed
The warplane was the second Nato has acknowledged lost in action over Yugoslavia since the air campaign started.
An American F-117 Stealth fighter crashed over Yugoslavia on 27 March, three days into the campaign. The pilot of that plane was also rescued.
A handful of unmanned drones have also gone down.
The Serb media regularly reports the shooting down of Nato aircraft, but these claims have been denied by the alliance. Many of the F-16s flown by the alliance have been based at Aviano in Italy.
source:BBC news
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- #10
128 The MoD's short answer to the question 'How much damage was done?' was 'Enough'.[<A href="http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmdfence/347/34713.htm#note272">272] Although there is no doubt that the air operations had a substantial effect, a number of questions remain unanswered. General Wesley Clark analysed the campaign constraints with some precision in an address to the Brookings Institute on 8 June 2000—
- In order to run the campaign and look at the trade-offs involved, we set up something new, which we called measures of merit. These weren't exactly objectives. They were the trade-offs that were designed to give us the right balance of effort and risk and so forth ... The first requirement was to avoid losses, principally losses of aircraft. The reason was, this had to be an air campaign of indefinite duration. We knew at the outset that you can't start an air campaign if you go into it losing four, five, six aircraft a day, with the ... headlines screaming that "NATO loses 12th aircraft," "NATO loses 30th aircraft," "because then the clock's ticking. And in order for this campaign to work, we knew the air campaign had to continue indefinitely. The key to that was to minimize, avoid if possible, the losses of aircraft ... Early on, we also knew that we were going to have a risk to our forces in Bosnia and in Macedonia, and so we put a lot of emphasis on that. We knew we could strike fixed targets, but could we impact Serb forces in Kosovo? I put that in there as a second measure of merit, and I worked it every day during the operation. We had to minimize collateral damage, and we had to maintain Alliance cohesion ... the reason this was useful at the strategic level is because trade-offs were involved. If you want to go and take greater risks with your aircraft, you may suffer losses; you may be able to do more against the Serb forces in Kosovo, or you may be able to further reduce collateral damage. If you are not going after the Serb forces in Kosovo, perhaps that has an impact on Alliance cohesion. If you don't bring the full Alliance on board, with the strategy and the targetting, in some way that meets their needs, then you lose alliance cohesion ...We knew we had to succeed in all four measures of merit to make the air campaign work, and that's what we did.[<A href="http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmdfence/347/34713.htm#note273">273]
For a more balanced summary of the air war for Kosovo, anyone interested might want to read this:
"Kosovo and the Continuing SEAD Challenge"
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html
"Kosovo and the Continuing SEAD Challenge"
http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj02/sum02/lambeth.html
:rel
Yeah right...hiding the loss of 70 AC is so easy. What about the pilots, were they rescued by CSAR or KIA? To which nations did they belong?...
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Yeah, NATO lost real bad. Guess the Serbs must be so good at deception that they managed to conceal the 70 "downed" aircraft, before the World press could discover them.
Strange also that the Serbs didn't wqant the propaganda advantage at the time, that publicly displaying the 70 downed aircraft would have provided them...
The dent to your nationalistic pride hasn't quite healed yet eh, Goran?
Strange also that the Serbs didn't wqant the propaganda advantage at the time, that publicly displaying the 70 downed aircraft would have provided them...
The dent to your nationalistic pride hasn't quite healed yet eh, Goran?
Capt. Picard
New Member
This is quite interesting. It's quite a worry for Europe that no acceptance of the essential "wrongness" of the actions of Serbia and it's armies has been forthcoming from Serbians. We also need to remember the Serbs still don't seem to accept (much less want to hand over) those wanted for war crimes including genocide.
So Goran, we would be really interested to read non partisan analysis of your claims, until that point you will have to accept that without evidence, the reasonable, level headed people on this forum wont believe your claims.
So Goran, we would be really interested to read non partisan analysis of your claims, until that point you will have to accept that without evidence, the reasonable, level headed people on this forum wont believe your claims.
I cannot see where this thread is going to go other than getting ugly. Topic locked until further notice(or forever).
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