This is a discussion on Made in Singapore Equipment within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by OPSSG
As long as the Mods are also happy, I'm very easy going on slight detours.
The ...
As long as the Mods are also happy, I'm very easy going on slight detours.
The light weight 105mm howitzer is still in active service in a number of armies and it has a slightly smaller foot print compared to a 155mm howitzer, which is important for Indonesia, given your country's limited heli-lift and sea lift. As they say 'different strokes for different folks'.
To simplify our logistics and ammo versatility reasons, Singapore has chosen to standardize on the 155mm howitzer - a calibre that allows for fairly decent range (howitzers are also used for counter battery work) and the standardization of ammunition. The 155mm howitzer has a good range of sub-munitions (or otherwise known as cluster munitions/cargo rounds), pretty good fragmentation efficiency and adequate high explosive power. From a conventional warfare planning standpoint, the 64 sub-munitions of a cargo round can cover a larger area and potentially hit more targets at once than a single unitary round. Basically, fragments from unitary rounds lose velocity quickly, so it's much more efficient to use many small diameter fragmenting sub-munitions than a single large one. The conceptual downside for sub-munitions is the slightly elevated potential for blinds, which can pose a danger to your own troops (moving into the affected area/objective after the artillery barrage). However, this potential danger posed by sub-munitions can be mitigated with proper technology (via the use of advanced fuses) and stringent quality control. See the relevant ST Kinetics brochure on Singapore made cargo rounds here.
I'm also inclined to believe that Indonesia has 6 FH-2000s (a 155mm/52 calibre towed howitzer, with APU). For Singapore, the FH-2000 is a divisional artillery asset and until the acquisition of the US made HIMARS by Singapore artillery, the FH-2000 was the longest range artillery piece in our inventory. HIMARS will provide a leap in the capabilities of Singapore artillery and augment our existing 155mm howitzers and 120mm mortars.
BTW, I may not be able to be prompt in my replies over the next two weeks.
hey guys,great news here,it seems that the indian army has amended its decision against backlisted firms,allowing them to participate.
i guess this puts singapore kinetics back in the race to sell the pegasus howitzer to india.
Two banned companies — a Singaporean firm vying for a billion-dollar order for artillery guns and an Israeli arms supplier — are hoping for a reprieve after the government today said it has amended the rules under which they were blacklisted in June.
The defence ministry has amended the rules that may allow the companies to participate in trials and tests but not to conclude contracts before the CBI completes its investigation.
I'm also inclined to believe that Indonesia has 6 FH-2000s (a 155mm/52 calibre towed howitzer, with APU). For Singapore, the FH-2000 is a divisional artillery asset and until the acquisition of the US made HIMARS by Singapore artillery, the FH-2000 was the longest range artillery piece in our inventory. HIMARS will provide a leap in the capabilities of Singapore artillery and augment our existing 155mm howitzers and 120mm mortars.
BTW, I may not be able to be prompt in my replies over the next two weeks.
"The extended-range MLRS rocket (ER-MLRS) improves the basic M26 range of 32km to more than 45km and the area of influence by 107%.
The extension of the rocket motor has resulted in a reduction in the payload to 518 M85 grenades, but the dispersion of the grenades is improved for better effectiveness with fewer grenades.
In April 2004, HIMARS successfully test fired the new extended range guided rocket GMLRS, with a range of more than 70km.
HIMARS is capable of firing the long-range ATACMS (army tactical missile system) guided missile. The ATACMS family includes the Block 1, Block 1A and Block 1A Unitary missiles. The block 1 missile delivers 950 anti-personnel anti-material (AP/AM) baseball-sized M74 submunitions to ranges exceeding 165km.
The block 1A missile range exceeds 300km by reducing the submunition payload to 300 bomblets and adding GPS guidance."
"The extended-range MLRS rocket (ER-MLRS) improves the basic M26 range of 32km to more than 45km and the area of influence by 107%.
The extension of the rocket motor has resulted in a reduction in the payload to 518 M85 grenades, but the dispersion of the grenades is improved for better effectiveness with fewer grenades.
In April 2004, HIMARS successfully test fired the new extended range guided rocket GMLRS, with a range of more than 70km.
HIMARS is capable of firing the long-range ATACMS (army tactical missile system) guided missile. The ATACMS family includes the Block 1, Block 1A and Block 1A Unitary missiles. The block 1 missile delivers 950 anti-personnel anti-material (AP/AM) baseball-sized M74 submunitions to ranges exceeding 165km.
The block 1A missile range exceeds 300km by reducing the submunition payload to 300 bomblets and adding GPS guidance."
Even more than an Iskander-E (280 km)
As of now the SAF is operating 18 HIMARS launchers.Does anyone have information if
there are plans to procure more HIMARS?
What is the actual Leopard 2A4 MBT that SAF has?
The French government has finally selected the latest version of the BAE Systems BvS10 MkII Viking all-terrain tracked vehicle over the Singaporean variant. Have to admit it does make sense, the UK and Dutch Marines use the same vehicle plus it was specifically designed to fit inside the current batch of landing craft / LSD's. I understand the Warthog is bigger reducing the number, which can be stored inside the current French amphib assets.
The UK plans to transfer it's batch of larger Warthogs to the army orbat and return the BvS10's (including recently ordered battlefield replacements) back to the RM ARG for the same reason as stated above.
...i believe that the lighter weight advantage of the m-777 is negated by the pegasus's higher degree of automation and superior mobility.
I have to admit that the M777 is impressive. It is possible that India will take the FMS route and ST Kinetics may lose this sale. See this impressive air drop video from ArtyEngineer:
...I usually try to be cautious in praise on Singapore made equipment, as I strive not to be blindly nationalistic over made in Singapore equipment (and I'm happy to discuss their limitations too).
Congrats to BAE for the BvS10 MkII win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by riksavage
The French government has finally selected the latest version of the BAE Systems BvS10 MkII Viking all-terrain tracked vehicle over the Singaporean variant. Have to admit it does make sense, the UK and Dutch Marines use the same vehicle plus it was specifically designed to fit inside the current batch of landing craft / LSD's. I understand the Warthog is bigger reducing the number, which can be stored inside the current French amphib assets.
The UK plans to transfer it's batch of larger Warthogs to the army orbat and return the BvS10's (including recently ordered battlefield replacements) back to the RM ARG for the same reason as stated above.
@riksavage, is their concern is reducing the number of waves during staging? Thanks in advance for a reply on this question.
Last edited by OPSSG; January 27th, 2010 at 11:56 AM.
I asked one of my associates, a serving RM officer about the Viking vs Warthog and he made the Russian Doll analogy, one (Viking) designed to fit tightly in the other (MK10), which in turn fits tightly in the Bay / Albion Class, hence the desire to keep the Viking II specifications as close to that of the MKI.
Warthog is very popular and apparently a dream to use, however it is not ideal for RM use across all roles due to its increased size, hence it being transferred to the army and driven by the Royal Tank Corp.
I asked one of my associates, a serving RM officer about the Viking vs Warthog and he made the Russian Doll analogy, one (Viking) designed to fit tightly in the other (MK10), which in turn fits tightly in the Bay / Albion Class, hence the desire to keep the Viking II specifications as close to that of the MKI.
Warthog is very popular and apparently a dream to use, however it is not ideal for RM use across all roles due to its increased size, hence it being transferred to the army and driven by the Royal Tank Corp.
Thanks, as I suspected things to be that way. At least the Warthog can be put to excellent use in the army. Is there no light formation which can put it to use, or are they driven by the Tank Corp mostly due to their skill set or particular turf?
Firn
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"The first criterioun in war remains decisive action. Everyone, from the highest commander down to the youngest soldier, must constantly be aware that inaction and neglect incriminate him more severely than any error in the choice of means.
Singapore, 4 February 2010 - ST Engineering today announced that its land systems arm, ST Kinetics, has won a contract worth US$20.9m (about S$29.4m) from the Brazilian Navy for the supply of 5 units of 40mm L70 naval gun and an associated Integrated Logistics Support (ILS) package. The contract was signed between the Brazilian Navy and Allied Ordnance of Singapore (Pte) Ltd (AOS), a wholly owned subsidiary of ST Kinetics. Delivery will begin in the last quarter of 2011 and is expected to be completed by end 2013.
This contract is the second that AOS has received from the Brazilian Navy. Two units of 40mm L70 naval gun with ILS package were ordered in 2007. Delivery of the first gun is currently in progress and will be installed on a Brazilian Navy patrol vessel.
Both contracts were won amidst strong competition from established global players. ST Kinetics' 40mm L70 NADM330 naval gun features a full electric drive aiming system with brushless motors that enable quick and accurate target tracking; battery powered operation that allows immediate and ever-ready activation; and 101 ready-to-fire rounds in a dual compartment magazine that provides immediate selection between two types of ammunition and ample ammunition for engagements without reloading. These class leading features of the gun give it the capability to instantly engage aerial and surface targets simultaneously.
"The Brazilian Navy's second order of ST Kinetics' 40mm L70 naval guns amidst keen competition reflects their confidence in the quality and performance of our solution. We are delighted with this latest order and will ensure that we exceed all expectations of the esteemed Brazilian Navy." ~ SEW Chee Jhuen, President, ST Kinetics
[The Hindu] The Indian Army has postponed the winter trials for procuring 155 mm towed howitzers after St. Kinetics expressed inability to bring its gun for field testing due to an accident in Singapore. “The winter trials will now be held in October as one of the two contenders, St. Kinetics, said its gun was damaged in an accident in Singapore, and would be able to arrive in India only after March,” Army officials said here.
St. Kinetics senior executive Brig Gen Patrick Choy said the accident occurred when the gun was being transported to India. “We have to cut some parts on the gun which were damaged in the accident. We will definitely have the guns in India by April and it will take part in the summer trials,” he said. The Indian Army is planning to procure 400 towed howitzers, and BAE Systems and the Singapore-based ST Kinetics are the two contenders offering their platforms.
The field trials have already been delayed as they were put on hold after St. Kinetics’ name surfaced in a CBI case for allegedly bribing Ordinance Factory Board officials. After the government decided to allow tainted firms to participate in defence contracts till the time the probe was on, the Army decided to hold the winter trials in Leh in February and March.
In view of the mishap involving the St. Kinetics gun, the trials are now expected to be held in October-November. Commenting on the other tenders where St. Kinetics is participating, Choy said the company’s SAR-21 assault rifles were undergoing trials for meeting the requirements of the Home Ministry tender for procuring around 40,000 guns.
I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
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High-tech circuity is no replacement for steel guts
I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
You've got your facts wrong.
The 9 March 1997 incident in NZ was caused by a faulty artillery fuze. The Committee of Inquiry concluded that the most probable cause of this incident was a faulty artillery fuze that was fitted to the 155 mm projectile which had been loaded into the gun howitzer that resulted in the premature detonation, so the problem is not with the gun.
This faulty fuse was supposed to be 'supplied' by Island Ordnance Systems (IOS) in the United States, when in fact, IOS had in turn obtained the flawed fuzes from Xian Dong Fang Machinery Factory in the province of Shaanxi, PRC. Prior to delivery to Singapore, IOS had hastily issued a Certificate of Compliance and a Certificate of Conformance to confirm that the required military specifications had been met, even though it did not conduct those required tests. In the sample test of the fuzes carried out by later in Singapore, no defective fuzes were found. Hence, based on these Certificates issued by IOS and sample test by Chartered Ammunition Industries (CAI), Singapore's MINDEF accepted the delivery of these fuzes.
A subsequent X-ray check on the same batch of fuzes from where the faulty fuze was taken from and found that approximately 1.3% of these fuzes were faulty (kindly note that the subsequent investigation was able to identify a 1.3% defect rate - which meant a 100% check on all fuzes supplied by IOS).
Singapore's MINDEF eventually went on to pursue the appropriate legal options that are available against the parties involved in the supply of the defective fuzes, namely - CAI and IOS. In other words, it can be inferred that the US company, IOS may have committed fraud and that this fraud led to the 9 March 1997 incident that killed 3SG Ronnie Tan Han Chong and LCP Low Yin Tit.
This incident is related to ammo supply chain and possibly fraud by the US supplier of fuses but NOT the performance or reliability of the FH-2000.
So, we've learnt our lesson and that we need to verify what our US suppliers tell us.
Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2010 at 12:27 AM.
I guess this also means ST Kinetics is still in the fray for the deal. Its good to have competitor since that means either way the prices can be beaten down more effectively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaaditya
i believe this is the second time that the singapore gun has met with an accident during trials ,the earlier one was a barrel burst during a test fire by the new zealand armed forces resulting in a couple of casualties,this somehow questions the reliability of this gun ,especially in the intense combat and climatic conditions that occur in india.
I think this was a shipment related accident that damaged the iFH-2000 as it was being shipped to India - the damage to the iFH-2000 had nothing to do actual trials (since the trails are not yet conducted). Below is a very old video on the FH-2000.
@aaaditya, don't jump to conclusions without reading the details. Even American sources acknowledge that the Singapore designed and built FH2000 is the first 52 calibre field howitzer 'in service and in series production'. See also my earlier post #27 for more details on extended range rounds and how that affects range. BTW, the FH-2000 is in service in both Singapore and Indonesia.
Last edited by OPSSG; February 19th, 2010 at 01:39 AM.
Can someone please paste the content of the video in brief?
I remember you or someone else had posted the incident about the fuses somewhere else earlier.
An incident like this could have been catastrophic for ST Kinetics prospects if it had happened in India. Finding parts( even if its as small as Fuses for shells) in defence equipment that originate in PRC could have created a big rukus here creating strategic concerns, stories of foul play etc. and probably destroyed any hopes of ST Kinetics selling to India.
Its important to understand the politics of the nation you are trying to sell arms to.
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High-tech circuity is no replacement for steel guts
