Libyan rebels holding British SAS unit: reports

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Unconfirmed at this point

Libyan rebels holding British SAS unit: reports

Updated 1 hour 57 minutes ago

On patrol: Rebel paratroopers and anti-government fighters in Benghazi (AFP: Patrick Baz)


Britian's Sunday Times newspaper is reporting that Libyan rebels have captured a British special forces unit in the east of the country.

The group of eight soldiers were apparently on a secret diplomatic mission to make contact with opposition leaders.

The newspaper says the team were intercepted as they escorted a junior diplomat through rebel-held territory.

The uninvited appearance of special forces alongside the diplomat "angered Libyan opposition figures who ordered the soldiers to be locked up on a military base," the newspaper said.

The British Foreign Office says it can not "confirm or deny" the report.

The Ministry of Defence in London was not immediately available for comment, but routinely does not discuss special forces operations.

Opponents of the Libyan leader Moamar Gaddafi fear he could use any evidence of Western military intervention against the rebel's uprising.

The newspaper said that according to Libyan sources, the soldiers were taken by rebels to Libya's second city Benghazi, held by the opposition, and hauled up before a senior figure.

The Sunday Times said a British source, who confirmed the men had been detained, said the diplomat they were protecting had wanted to make contact with the rebels.

It cited a source close to the opposition leadership as saying rebel officials were worried that Libyan people might think from the escort party that "foreign troops have started to interfere by landing in Libya".

British service personnel have already been involved in the rescue of British nationals working on oil installations in remote desert camps.

Prime minister David Cameron said last week that Western countries should be stepping up contact with the Libyan opposition to gain a greater understanding of their intentions.

Foreign secretary William Hague held telephone talks on Wednesday with General Abdel Fatah Yunis, the former Libyan interior minister who defected, about the situation on the ground.

Gunfire rocks Tripoli


Meanwhile, heavy automatic weapons fire has erupted in the Libyan capital Tripoli, the first such outbreak in Mr Gaddafi's main stronghold.

It was unclear who was doing the shooting, which started at 5:45am local time, just before daybreak, or what had caused it.

Machine gun volleys, some of them heavy calibre, were reverberating around central Tripoli, along with ambulance sirens, pro-Gaddafi chants, whistling and a cacophony of car horns as vehicles sped through the vicinity.

A government spokesman denied any fighting was underway in Tripoli.

"I assure you, I assure you, I assure you, I assure you, there is no fighting going on in Tripoli," said spokesman Mussa Ibrahim.

"Everything is safe. Tripoli is 100 percent under control. What you are hearing is celebratory fireworks. People are in the streets, dancing in the square."

He warned, however: "I would like to advise not to go there for your safety."

Libyan rebels were also advancing from the east on Mr Gaddafi's hometown, Sirte, around 500 km from Tripoli, and clinging to positions in a western town near the capital after withstanding two armoured assaults by government forces.

A tense calm settled over the western town of Zawiya after nightfall on Saturday, with rifle-toting insurgents on rooftops and manning checkpoints on streets leading into the centre.

A doctor in Zawiya, some 50km west of Tripoli, said at least 30 people, mostly civilians, were killed during fighting on Saturday that wrecked the town centre, raising to at least 60 the death toll from two days of battles.

The rebels said they were bracing for another tank and artillery attack by government on Sunday.

Almost 600 km to the east along Libya's Mediterranean coast, insurgents said they took the town of Bin Jawad on Saturday, on the heels of seizing the oil port of Ras Lanuf, and were thrusting westwards towards Sirte.

- ABC/AFP/Reuters

It will be interesting to get some more reliable background on this.. its not exactly normal "snatch" work, so one would assume that it was relatively benign. 8 is not a normal squadron construct either....
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Unconfirmed at this point

Libyan rebels holding British SAS unit: reports

Updated 1 hour 57 minutes ago

On patrol: Rebel paratroopers and anti-government fighters in Benghazi (AFP: Patrick Baz)


Britian's Sunday Times newspaper is reporting that Libyan rebels have captured a British special forces unit in the east of the country.

The group of eight soldiers were apparently on a secret diplomatic mission to make contact with opposition leaders.

The newspaper says the team were intercepted as they escorted a junior diplomat through rebel-held territory.

The uninvited appearance of special forces alongside the diplomat "angered Libyan opposition figures who ordered the soldiers to be locked up on a military base," the newspaper said.

The British Foreign Office says it can not "confirm or deny" the report.

The Ministry of Defence in London was not immediately available for comment, but routinely does not discuss special forces operations.

Opponents of the Libyan leader Moamar Gaddafi fear he could use any evidence of Western military intervention against the rebel's uprising.

The newspaper said that according to Libyan sources, the soldiers were taken by rebels to Libya's second city Benghazi, held by the opposition, and hauled up before a senior figure.

The Sunday Times said a British source, who confirmed the men had been detained, said the diplomat they were protecting had wanted to make contact with the rebels.

It cited a source close to the opposition leadership as saying rebel officials were worried that Libyan people might think from the escort party that "foreign troops have started to interfere by landing in Libya".

British service personnel have already been involved in the rescue of British nationals working on oil installations in remote desert camps.

Prime minister David Cameron said last week that Western countries should be stepping up contact with the Libyan opposition to gain a greater understanding of their intentions.

Foreign secretary William Hague held telephone talks on Wednesday with General Abdel Fatah Yunis, the former Libyan interior minister who defected, about the situation on the ground.

Gunfire rocks Tripoli


Meanwhile, heavy automatic weapons fire has erupted in the Libyan capital Tripoli, the first such outbreak in Mr Gaddafi's main stronghold.

It was unclear who was doing the shooting, which started at 5:45am local time, just before daybreak, or what had caused it.

Machine gun volleys, some of them heavy calibre, were reverberating around central Tripoli, along with ambulance sirens, pro-Gaddafi chants, whistling and a cacophony of car horns as vehicles sped through the vicinity.

A government spokesman denied any fighting was underway in Tripoli.

"I assure you, I assure you, I assure you, I assure you, there is no fighting going on in Tripoli," said spokesman Mussa Ibrahim.

"Everything is safe. Tripoli is 100 percent under control. What you are hearing is celebratory fireworks. People are in the streets, dancing in the square."

He warned, however: "I would like to advise not to go there for your safety."

Libyan rebels were also advancing from the east on Mr Gaddafi's hometown, Sirte, around 500 km from Tripoli, and clinging to positions in a western town near the capital after withstanding two armoured assaults by government forces.

A tense calm settled over the western town of Zawiya after nightfall on Saturday, with rifle-toting insurgents on rooftops and manning checkpoints on streets leading into the centre.

A doctor in Zawiya, some 50km west of Tripoli, said at least 30 people, mostly civilians, were killed during fighting on Saturday that wrecked the town centre, raising to at least 60 the death toll from two days of battles.

The rebels said they were bracing for another tank and artillery attack by government on Sunday.

Almost 600 km to the east along Libya's Mediterranean coast, insurgents said they took the town of Bin Jawad on Saturday, on the heels of seizing the oil port of Ras Lanuf, and were thrusting westwards towards Sirte.

- ABC/AFP/Reuters

It will be interesting to get some more reliable background on this.. its not exactly normal "snatch" work, so one would assume that it was relatively benign. 8 is not a normal squadron construct either....
This was a fact finding mission, the party were scheduled to meet opposition leaders. Turns out another opposition group got the hump. Libya is extremely tribal and outside Governments need to establish who the major players will be post revolution, they can only do that by getting their boots dirty. The escort team were in civvies. The low level politician will probably end up being aa member of MI6. They have made their point and it will be resolved pretty quickly I suspect.

The west can’t afford the current fruit loop Dictator to remain in power. If the no fly zone is a dead duck then covert assistance will need to be given to the group most likely to succeed and run the next government.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
While it is true that Libyan people are standing up to years of oppression by Gaddafi, do not mistake this for a simple call for democratic uprising. This is in essence a civil war between the tribes of Libya. Tribal identities are extremely important in that country. Gaddafi has for years put his own tribesmen in important positions, while keeping other tribes in line by a combination of force and benefit. One of the biggest reason Gaddafi lost Eastern Libya is that the Warfala tribe turned on him.

If the West does pick a side, it is sure to offend the other.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #4
While it is true that Libyan people are standing up to years of oppression by Gaddafi, do not mistake this for a simple call for democratic uprising. This is in essence a civil war between the tribes of Libya. Tribal identities are extremely important in that country. Gaddafi has for years put his own tribesmen in important positions, while keeping other tribes in line by a combination of force and benefit. One of the biggest reason Gaddafi lost Eastern Libya is that the Warfala tribe turned on him.

If the West does pick a side, it is sure to offend the other.
made worse by the fact that apart from the 4-5 tribes in the area, there are also nth african problems being sponsored via gaddafi as a counter balance

agree re the comment about democracy - its being seen through the western prism of "democracy" rather than multiple tribes finally seeing it as an opportunity to be rid of gadaffi and exercise their own tribal needs.

gadaffi has rendered the outlying army elements next to useless as they have never been in a position to have adequate munitions etc.. he's done this deliberately to minimise the chances of rebellion.

if they don't get tripoli, then military resupply will be almost impossible through "in country" means
 

Beatmaster

New Member
British SAS captured by Liberian forces? thats bad, there where also a few dutch naval personnel captured including the lynx heli that took of from the naval vessel tromp in a attempt to rescue dutch civvies from Gaddafi home town.
Currently the dutch government is trying to negotiate their release.

What is mister Gaddafi trying to do? get him self some trading tools so he can make a few deals with NATO and US to avoid that both intervene?

Holding a SAS unit and 3 dutch naval service man aint the right road then as he gives NATO a very good reason to come look for him specially if he hurts those people.

Source:

Ill bet that if he does not release these people and keep on killing his own people then he probably will or face trail at the court in den Hague which is investigating charges against him, or he will get a visit by special forces to extract those people or in the worse case scenario NATO and US will come looking for him the hard way.
And personally i believe that IF he keeps this up and keeps crossing moral and international laws then he makes the choice for the west as the west seems not to know what road they should take yet.
However to my understanding and believe i think that Gaddafi is walking on very thin ice.
Atm both the dutch frigate tromp and a US strike fleet is near the borders of Liberian waters and according to the news some additional dutch units are on their way (This is speculation as the news is unconfirmed yet) fact remains that both the frigate and the us strike fleet is there already so i assume that the rest is true.
The dutch government is very silent about this for security reasons according to the news.

Anyway i did not know he did capture SAS guys, but i just did find out that the 3 dutch service man are being suspected to be spies for the dutch against Gaddafi.
So lets see what comes from it, can't be good thats for sure.
Source:

Lets hope the guys come home in one piece.
 

DavidDCM

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Beatmaster, be aware that the SAS troopers were caught by the rebels, not by Gaddafi's men.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Beatmaster, be aware that the SAS troopers were caught by the rebels, not by Gaddafi's men.
Two totally different scenarios. The Dutch are in the hands of Gaddafi

The UK team where taken by the rebels who objected to them entering the country unannounced. They were the advance recce team for a diplomatic mission, most likely comprising MI6 + escort. No formal confirmation the escort was SAS (more likely SBS), that's the default response of the press who are having a field day. The rebels objected to the escort team having concealed weapons and comms equipment, the entire group has now been sent packing back to the Cumberland (which hosted the team and sent them in by Helo).

This a political miscalculation by the FCO - someone will be sacked or forced to resign. The FCO argument being the mission was there to assess humanitarian issues, however let's not delude ourselves, they were there to see who the major opposition power-brokers are (eastern tribal heads).

If the UK starts covertly supplying man-pads/trainers etc. to deal with Gaddafi's trump card (his airforce), then they need to end up in the right hands. The way things are gong neither side has the ability to totally suppress the other and we have ended up with an east/west divide.

The Dutch will end up as bargaining chips I suspect and could end up remaining in detention for some time.

One thing for sure if Gaddafi remains in power the dissident Irish Republican movement will have their armoury topped up - it will be pay back time for the UK.
 
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Beatmaster

New Member
Beatmaster, be aware that the SAS troopers were caught by the rebels, not by Gaddafi's men.
Thx for pointing that out, as i was not aware that there are more groups within libya.
I mean it was my understanding that there where only 2 sides.

@riksavage
you said: The Dutch will end up as bargaining chips

Probably yes however the dutch government will not allow it, as some sources Radio 538 with some Defense guys analyst said that its very reasonable that a elite team will go in and free those guys by force.
Some rumors suggest that AIVD (Intel) and special forces are currently reviewing the situation.
According to the analyst the dutch government will probably use all political channels to get those guys free, while in the mean time preparing the hard way just in-case.

Personally i think that if Gaddafi hurts or kills the dutch guys then there will be hell to pay for him, some of our political key figures said they will allow military intervention regardless the cost to get those guys back, they are also in favor of a large scale intervention by NATO troops if Gaddafi keeps killing his people.
So regardless what Gaddafi is planning his time is running out specially because US, France, UK, Belguim and the Netherlands are in serious favor of doing something serious either a no flyzone or even shutting down Gaddafi operations.
We will have to see what is going to happen, as there is no real confirmation atm just rumors and speculative things.
The dutch government is pretty much silent about this.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Thx for pointing that out, as i was not aware that there are more groups within libya.
I mean it was my understanding that there where only 2 sides.
These are the two sides...;)

You have Ghaddaffi and his loyal units on the one side and the rebels on the other side. The rebels are also divided into several sub-groups but seem to work together for the greater goal. This unity will go out the window as soon as Ghaddaffi leaves the country...
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
These are the two sides...;)

You have Ghaddaffi and his loyal units on the one side and the rebels on the other side. The rebels are also divided into several sub-groups but seem to work together for the greater goal. This unity will go out the window as soon as Ghaddaffi leaves the country...
One tyrant falls, and a bunch of wannabe tyrants fight until a new one emerge on top. This has always been the case in history. A hero arriving on a white horse giving hope and freedom to his people is the work of fantasy fiction. In this world we deal with reality.

The reality is that several major tribes of Libya saw the recent events across the Arab world as an opportunity to get rid of Gaddafi. Problem is, Gaddafi and his own tribe know that they will get the shit stick once the rebels gain power, so they will fight tooth and nails to hold on. All the while, the media is drumming up the story like it's the good guys vs the bad guys.

Funny world we live in.
 

Pathfinder-X

Tribal Warlord
Verified Defense Pro
WASHINGTON, March 10 (Reuters) - U.S. Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said on Thursday that the better-equipped forces of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi will over the long term prevail.
Clapper told the Senate Armed Services Committee that Libyan forces loyal to Gaddafi were better equipped and had more logistical resources, and "over longer term, that the regime will prevail."
US spy chief sees Gaddafi forces prevailing long-term | Energy & Oil | Reuters

Somebody is being brutally honest.
 

T.C.P

Well-Known Member
One tyrant falls, and a bunch of wannabe tyrants fight until a new one emerge on top. This has always been the case in history. A hero arriving on a white horse giving hope and freedom to his people is the work of fantasy fiction. In this world we deal with reality.

The reality is that several major tribes of Libya saw the recent events across the Arab world as an opportunity to get rid of Gaddafi. Problem is, Gaddafi and his own tribe know that they will get the shit stick once the rebels gain power, so they will fight tooth and nails to hold on. All the while, the media is drumming up the story like it's the good guys vs the bad guys.

Funny world we live in.
A truer thing was never said on this thread;)
 

John Sansom

New Member
talk about sticking your neck out!

also, wasnt the 'diplomat' that was captured an mi6 agent?
Here's how it might have worked.

You let a select group of rebels know you want to talk with them just to get a feeling for things on the ground. Give them the map reference where your chopper is destined to offload an MI6 diplomat and escort.

The rebels then "capture" these guys. Everybody has a nice chat. The rebels get told just how Whitehall feels about things at that moment and, in turn, the Brits get told what to tell Whitehall.

Then, in order not to get into trouble with their own folk, or other disparate rebel groups, the rebels create the "kicking out" scenario and everybody wanders off to mull over what they have learned.:dance
 
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