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The Indonesian Army

This is a discussion on The Indonesian Army within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; Originally Posted by Ananda Got some picture on the prototype of AMX 13 Upgrade being conducted from official TNI-AD Cavalry ...


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Old May 15th, 2011   #136
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Got some picture on the prototype of AMX 13 Upgrade being conducted from official TNI-AD Cavalry site .: PUSSENKAV:.

As predicted, the modifications mostly in the turret while the gun still using 105 mm. Thus if this prototype being agreed, then it will be significant run down of AMX 13 inventory from current 200-300 to just 65 but upgraded AMX 13 105mm.
Nice. As a Singaporean, we have a lot of sentimental affection for the AMX-13.

SAF claim that the 300 AMX-13 we have are phased out to be replaced by 100 Leopards, and even melted a few AMX-13 down in a ceremony. But I suspect that until all the thousands of reservist trained on the AMX-13 are old and senile, the AMX-13 in SAF will soldier on.

...

Do you have any idea about the role for MBT in TNI? And what numbers is TNI looking at.

Indonesia is a huge geography with so many islands, it looks like a big headache where to put your MBTs. And shipping them around to different places presents logistical nightmare as you don't just have to transport the tanks, but the whole support system.

ANd BTW, on the whole, is TNI in a more offensive or defensive posture?

Apologies in advance if the questions are inappropriate.
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Old May 15th, 2011   #137
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Tanks are most probably going to be stationed on Java, under command of the Kostrad strategic reserve unit.
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Old May 15th, 2011   #138
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Tanks are most probably going to be stationed on Java, under command of the Kostrad strategic reserve unit.
Logically any new tanks (or MBT if the plan goes ahead) should be stationed in Java, since the infrastructures to support them will be available best in that Island. However some noise in here alreeady specullating that new MBT will be stationed in Kalimantan/Borneo in the new Cavalry Batalions being build there. Personally I have my doubt that the newest Tanks will be stationed outside Java.

The Air transport elements by TNI-AU with C-130 as the biggest, means they can only afford to take max 15-18 tons Armoured. Thus only catagories like AMX-13 or Pindad's new 'canon' Armoured Cars can only be put by air. Whille most of TNI-AL trasnports except the 4 Makasar LPD's is also geared for Light Tanks and APC's for their transported inventories.

Thus by that logic, if new MBT being procured they will be stationed on Java or Sumatra at most, unless significant supporting infrastructures being build outside Java and Sumatra.

@Chino, the doctrines for TNI still is deffensive postures. TNI doctrines still dictate (at least semi-publicly) that due to their conditions, they will use the advantages of geographics of Indonesia for deffensive strategies in which basically try to wear down potential Invading forces through deffensive/guerilla tactics of hit and run.

What's quite sensitive though this doctrines dictates that they will hold ground in Java and Sumatra whille play insurgencies doctrines outside Java and Sumatra if facing supperior invading forces (Java and Sumatra in here means also some smaller island near to Java and Sumatra like Madura, Bali) This was known but seldom talked since it can create ressenment feeling from people outside Java and Sumatra.

I heard about this doctrines around late 80's when the mood that time was talking about northern invations scenarios. However this doctrines I heard still beingheld somewhat by National Defense think-tank in Lemhanas on basis that the infrastructures for long-term defense is available mostly in Java and Sumatra. Thus the thinking is that coordinating good defense only possible under current TNI situations for Java and Sumatra, whille outside Java and Sumatra the Armed Forces and local militia will conducting Insurgencies strategies.

Off Course, the basic Philosophy of TNI is still to defend every inch of Indonesian sovereign teritory

For addtional info:
From Tempo Interactive, quoting TNI-AL Marines sources and Mindef, the Marines set to have a full batalion (54) of BMP-3F from current already delivered 17. This will make the Marines operating 3 Light Tanks batalions with one operating BMP-3, the other PT-76 (upgraded), and the last one operating AMX-10P.
Seems they will operated and supported by elements of Armourd Personal Carriers of BTR-50, LAV-7, and BTR-80 in composites ways.
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Old May 16th, 2011   #139
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Logically any new tanks (or MBT if the plan goes ahead) should be stationed in Java, since the infrastructures to support them will be available best in that Island. However some noise in here alreeady specullating that new MBT will be stationed in Kalimantan/Borneo in the new Cavalry Batalions being build there. Personally I have my doubt that the newest Tanks will be stationed outside Java.
I also heavily doubt that. Kalimantan units only get older equipment, that's a political message, Jakarta don't wants to appear as if it still intends to invade Sarawak and Sabah. Putting main battle tanks into Kalimantan would give the bilateral relations of Indonesia and Malaysia a serious chink.
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Old May 16th, 2011   #140
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@Ananda

Thanks for the eye-opening points.

To fully defend every inch of Indonesia is a nightmare. You will need a few million armed men, hundreds of ships and aircrafts.

It does make sense to consolidate on Java and Sumatra, and then build-up to counter the threat that has occurred in further places. So MBT would be mostly for the active defense of Java and Sumatra. But since these two areas are huge, you must need a lot.

But there is currently no real threat scenarios, is there?

With the vast geography of thousands of islands, and with what you already told us about the people's militia scenario, it would appear there is more need for rapid airforce and naval expansion.

...

IIRC, SAF and TNI use roughly the same version of AMX-10P. Allegedly, SAF does not think highly of the AMX-10P. How about TNI?
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Old May 16th, 2011   #141
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I also heavily doubt that. Kalimantan units only get older equipment, that's a political message, Jakarta don't wants to appear as if it still intends to invade Sarawak and Sabah. Putting main battle tanks into Kalimantan would give the bilateral relations of Indonesia and Malaysia a serious chink.
I may have asked this before: does MAF station their PT-91, Astros MLRS or any type of heavy weaponry on Kalimantan/Borneo?
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Old May 16th, 2011   #142
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No, Malaysia acts similar to Indonesia, and does not have any of modern stuff in Borneo. There is one cavalry battalion (wheeled APC's) in all of Eastern Malaysia, all else is light infantry without armored vehicles. Artillery just one battalion of 105 mm howitzers.
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Old May 16th, 2011   #143
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@Ananda


IIRC, SAF and TNI use roughly the same version of AMX-10P. Allegedly, SAF does not think highly of the AMX-10P. How about TNI?
@Chino, I can only say this: The marines still love their old but upgraded and reliable PT-76 then the AMX 10P. You can see this from every latest amphibious exercises where they put PT-76 as the main amphibious tanks.

For MBT, now seems from local forum or the noise that come from Army and Mindef there are three scenarios :

1. Get ROK KT-1B or KT-2. It will be the most expensives scenarios but the amount of ToT that ROK willing to give (on MBT or other projects, possibly the IFV) can compensate that.
2. Get T-90, it's cheaper and we can get more than a couple batalions. However the ToT the Russian willing to give is not much (heard from unconfirmed report, the Russian only willing to give ToT if Indonesia procure more than a divisional strength just like India did).
3. Get surplus Leo 2 from Netherland or Germany.

Since TNI only talked getting one or a couple batalions of MBT, seems the second scenario get push down more and more. The First scenario still preferable but the third still being look as an option.
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Old May 17th, 2011   #144
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No, Malaysia acts similar to Indonesia, and does not have any of modern stuff in Borneo. There is one cavalry battalion (wheeled APC's) in all of Eastern Malaysia, all else is light infantry without armored vehicles. Artillery just one battalion of 105 mm howitzers.
No wonder Malaysia chaff so much at her paranoid southern neighbor.
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Old May 17th, 2011   #145
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@Chino, I can only say this: The marines still love their old but upgraded and reliable PT-76 then the AMX 10P. You can see this from every latest amphibious exercises where they put PT-76 as the main amphibious tanks.

For MBT, now seems from local forum or the noise that come from Army and Mindef there are three scenarios :

1. Get ROK KT-1B or KT-2. It will be the most expensives scenarios but the amount of ToT that ROK willing to give (on MBT or other projects, possibly the IFV) can compensate that.
2. Get T-90, it's cheaper and we can get more than a couple batalions. However the ToT the Russian willing to give is not much (heard from unconfirmed report, the Russian only willing to give ToT if Indonesia procure more than a divisional strength just like India did).
3. Get surplus Leo 2 from Netherland or Germany.

Since TNI only talked getting one or a couple batalions of MBT, seems the second scenario get push down more and more. The First scenario still preferable but the third still being look as an option.
(Not too sure what is ToT but I assume it is some kind of alternative to full cash payment?)

For TNI, wouldn't the Leo 2 option be the most sensible? Or are the Germans not granting any ToT terms?

For the Korean option, isn't there a huge capability difference - and therefore a corresponding price difference - between the K1 and K2 variants?
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Old May 17th, 2011   #146
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(Not too sure what is ToT but I assume it is some kind of alternative to full cash payment?)

For TNI, wouldn't the Leo 2 option be the most sensible? Or are the Germans not granting any ToT terms?

For the Korean option, isn't there a huge capability difference - and therefore a corresponding price difference - between the K1 and K2 variants?
ToT in here means as Transfer of Technology. In sense it will provide work for local industry from building parts up to license manufacturing. For people in the Government it means providing jobs and projects for strugling domestic defense industry whille still paying to get proven design.

Related to Leo 2, I don't think the German will provide ToT for buying used Tanks. Yes Leo 2 will be more reasonable and potentially more economicall to buy considering it's more proven design and already have advantages on populations worldwide. Besides assides for Netherland stocks I don't know if any used/surplus Leo 2 still available that not already being taken by Greece, Turkey, Singapore, and others.

However other considerations (especially for helping local defense industry to participate in the projects) can potentially swayed the choices to ROK. The ROK MBT will be much more expensives considering they're new. That's why the choices for ROK stuff will be related to other defense projects as overall packages.
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Old May 18th, 2011   #147
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No wonder Malaysia chaff so much at her paranoid southern neighbor.
Do we??

With regards to East Malaysia, apart from the Confrontation period with Indonesia, the main concern of the Malaysians has traditionally been the Philippines. Due to Manila's claims on Sabah, a news leak in 1968 that the Philippine 1st Special Forces Group was training insurgents in Luzon for infiltration and the many instances of PAF Sabres flying in Sabah airspace as a show of force was a great concern to Malaysia. Malaysia is currently leading the IMT in Mindanao and has been for a few years, as well as hosting the peace talks, but in past it has been accused by Philippine political and military officials of supplying arms to the MILF.

At the moment the main concern is about security in the waters of Sabah and preventing bandits/robbers/terrorists/insurgents/kidnappers [whatever one wishes to call them] from the southern Philippines islands from entering Malaysia on kidnapping raids and the dispute over Ambalat with Indonesia. David DCM is correct in that there are only light infantry units in East Malaysia - a division HQ. I suppose that there is no requirement or urgency to deploy anything heavier there at the moment. Also, the thing to bear in mind is that apart from 48 MBTs, 36 MLRS and 28155mm howitzers, there no 'heavy' equipment operated.

Ananda, would you agree with me that given it's history, threat perceptions and geography, Indonesia's main concerns remain counter insurgency and LICs rather than a full blown war with a neighbour and that the current structure of the TNI-AD and the stuff it is buying would indicate that there is at present no shift from this direction?

I'm my opinion, of all the ASEAN countries apart from Vietnam, it is Indonesia that has the most interesting military history and has fought more campaigns than any other country - from the time it gained independence to until a few years ago, it has fought various nationalist rebel groups in Sumatra, Java, Ambon, Sulawesi, Kalimantan, East Timor and Irian. At one time in the mid-50's, the PEMESTA rebels even controlled 2/3rds of all Sumatra! The Indonesian army is also the only regional army that has actually made combat drops, involving paratroopers, against armed opponents.

Last edited by STURM; May 18th, 2011 at 04:45 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2011   #148
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ToT...
Why would TNI want ToT if they are just looking at arming one battalion? Unless, of course, they mean one battalion now... many battalions later?

In theory at least, an enemy can only come by sea or air (which also means they will initially be quite lightly-equipped). So your first line of defence: air and sea assets, are much much more important for such a huge country than buying expensive MBT.

The only land routes for invasion of Indonesia would be Kalimantan and Irian Jaya, so that's where it'll be nice to have MBTs for defense and offense.
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Old May 18th, 2011   #149
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With regards to East Malaysia, apart from the Confrontation period with Indonesia, the main concern of the Malaysians has traditionally been the Philippines.
The Filipinos were one of the stronger SEA nation in the 60's and 70's.

Actually which country is the closest friend of the Philippines in SEA?

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....supplying arms to the MILF.
Supplying arms to "MILFs"?
Bad....


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Also, the thing to bear in mind is that apart from 48 MBTs, 36 MLRS and 28 155mm howitzers, there no 'heavy' equipment operated.
Still, these are enough to cause some mischief.

Sincerely, I am always thankful that Singapore is lucky in that we have giant, but mostly peaceful neighbours.
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Old May 19th, 2011   #150
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Why would TNI want ToT if they are just looking at arming one battalion? Unless, of course, they mean one battalion now... many battalions later?

In theory at least, an enemy can only come by sea or air (which also means they will initially be quite lightly-equipped). So your first line of defence: air and sea assets, are much much more important for such a huge country than buying expensive MBT.

The only land routes for invasion of Indonesia would be Kalimantan and Irian Jaya, so that's where it'll be nice to have MBTs for defense and offense.
The ToT I think it's not just for one project. I don't think even we decided to buy Korean MBT, we got ToT for MBT. But we probably got ToT from other projects (perhaps IFV), which in turn makes the overall packages can provide some benefit to local industry.

@Sturm, I think the procurement of TNI more to deterence and keeping up with the procurement trend in region. When more than one of your neighbours getting MBT, then they want to get MBT just to keep up. However the main back bone on armoured still light ones.
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