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India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

This is a discussion on India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks within the Army & Security Forces forum, part of the Global Defense & Military category; gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep ...


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Old October 25th, 2004   #91
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep the people alive, no one would worry about human casualties, maybe they will have software programs in the future that can allo the tank to fight the tank war intelligently with trained professionals overlooking the comat, isnt this where the pentagon is headed and the future donald rumsfeld envisions?
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Old October 25th, 2004   #92
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

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Originally Posted by redsoulja
gary wouldn't there be advantaes of RC tanks , like there would be less space and armor needed to keep the people alive, no one would worry about human casualties, maybe they will have software programs in the future that can allo the tank to fight the tank war intelligently with trained professionals overlooking the comat, isnt this where the pentagon is headed and the future donald rumsfeld envisions?
Yes and no. There are clear benefits in reducing manpower losses and by automating some functions (like RCWS) - but generally, I think this is a long way off from being a reality - there are too many difficulties in a number of areas.

The next biggest problem is situational awareness of the RC operator - it doesn't matter how many sensors you stick on the platform, the operator loses instinctive touch. Apart from that, AI is nowhere near a deliverable stage.

I also think that the MBT will change in it's core function - and assessing an RC Tank will be really embryonic only. The weaps delivery platforms will be compeletely different within 12-15 years - so the MBT as we know it will be less likely or familiar to us.
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Old October 26th, 2004   #93
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Re: Ex Colonial objects to the Arjun Induction!

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Second: Nowhere in the world, NOWHERE, has a viable SP artillery platform been made by mating an artillery gun turret with a tank chassis. Like tank design, SP gun design is all about integration; about optimizing space, systems and electronics. Almost every system in a tank, whether NBC protective, radio, night vision, gun control, you-name-it, is spread over both turret and chassis. So when you get a turret from South Africa, having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis, and mate it with an Indian chassis, you are basically riveting pipes, wires, hydraulics etc all over the place without any design having gone into it. The number of things that could fail in the long run are too numerous to recount.
What is overlooked here is that the the GH turret in question, while derived from the turret of the South African G6 wheeld SPGH, was design from the beginning as a self-contained unit. Consequently, the situation is not one of "having ripped out half the systems that should go into the chassis" and "without any design having gone into it".

The T6 is unique in that respect, when compared to other turrets used in India's hybrid SPG testing on T72 chassis (i.e. the Czech turret came from Dana SPHG, the Brit turret came from Vickers AS90 SPGH, the French turret came from AUF-1 SPGH). The T-72 chassis prooved too light for the SPGH purpose. AFAIK, only the T6 turret was trialled on Arjun chassis.

Incidentally, the turret of the AS90 was succesfully mated to a different chassis that the original (Polish Krab SPGH) but it was a purpose designed chasis and not a regular tank chassis. Perhaps this succes is in part also because the turret of the AS90 was derived from the Vickers GBT 155mm gun turret of the early 1980's which - like the T6 - was designed so that it could be fitted to an existing tank chassis.
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Old November 29th, 2004   #94
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

Indian economy has one of the fastest growing rates in the world.It has already started producing one of the most advanced aircrafts in the world:The Sukhoi-30 MKI.Plus it is working on ambitious projects like the Surya ICBM,HAL LCA & MCA[medium Combat Aircraft],AVATAR hypersonic spacecraft & many others.
There is a huge need of MBTs for the Indian Army.Do u think a country working on Hypersonic planes won't afford to produce 200 MBTs?????
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Old November 29th, 2004   #95
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

I think everybody here would agree that the problem is not whether India can afford to produce 200 Arjun's for its Army. The problem is: can India continue to afford projects like the ones you mention if these project follow the pattern of the Arjun program? That is, spending a lot of time, money and human energy to develop an piece of equipment and then doing only a small production run because the intended customer (Army in this case) doesn't want the equipment because it doesn't meet an operational requirement.

What do you think happens to unit price when development costs are to be recouped throught the sale of just 200 units instead of, say, 1000-1500 units? Unless you write off the development costs ( = a loss for the producer), you end up with units that are overly expensive (= extra cost for the customer). In this case, the government of India is both producer and customer and the taxpayer pays the price either way.
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Old November 29th, 2004   #96
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The problem is: can India continue to afford projects like the ones you mention if these project follow the pattern of the Arjun program?
The first step is always the hardest. Doesn't mean a child gives up walking. That being said the Arjun 2 MBT is hardly a failure, in certain scenario's and situations it's proved to have been more ideal for the IA than the T-90's.
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Old November 29th, 2004   #97
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Interesting read. Didn't know that MBT development is so plagued by so much trouble.

BTW, this Ajai Shukla - he's got a point there. Unless I am mistaken, his comments are angled to getting weapons that fight well in India's climate, terrain and environment. A very dangerous man - his views on combined ops if taken seriously is going to dent any attackers plans. But then again, he talk more like a infantry commander then a armoured one.

I won't know anything abt India's SPH but if its true, then I guess our own SPH must be developed carefully. I mean won't want a tank or AFV that is wider thatn the road transport system.

It be interesting to watch how India develops its AFV minus all the hype and chest thumping.
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Old December 29th, 2004   #98
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Admin edit: Stay on topic. Irrelevant text deleted.

Also, try and show some sensitivity to what is happening - this is not the time and place to try and ass wipe in here!
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Old December 29th, 2004   #99
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and how is ajun's fire-control system?

better than hunter-killer?
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Old December 29th, 2004   #100
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

mod edit: highsea: off topic comments deleted

BTW, India is better off buying Chinese newest tanks if India just want to fend off Pakistanese tanks. Due to India and China geograhpy and previous hot spots, it's unlikely that either side will be using main battle tanks when face each other in a war.
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Old December 29th, 2004   #101
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is ajun india's first home-desnighed tank?

if it is, than i am pretty impressed , cuz no body expects a country's first home-desnighed tank to be world's best
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Old December 29th, 2004   #102
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

how will Arjun be one of the world's best tank? Please enlight me.
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Old December 29th, 2004   #103
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na...it seems it is not one of the best...but it is already impressive
may be ajun 2 will be

i ve heard ajun is awefully expensive, 5 million each copy?

is that true?
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Old December 29th, 2004   #104
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Re: India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

I am not surprised if it's 5 mil per copy due to limited initial production.

Last I heard is that it's plagued with problems, from engine/transmission to armor to fire control.
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Old December 29th, 2004   #105
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Superbug in one of your earlier statements you said india's better of buying chinese newest tanks...let me enlighten you, you might be oblivious to the facts that tensions between china and india havent ceased from their border war until a few months ago...and none of chinas most advanced(although no where near that of western tanks)type-98/98G/99is not yet up for export..apart from the type-90II exported to pakistan and used there under the name of Al-khalid

And i dont believe Arjun is a home designed tank...i think israel and to some less extent, Germany since the arjun resembles the leo MK1
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