Challenger 2 no longer in production?

Ryan UK

New Member
Recently i was talking to a friend, and he told me some very interesting information, i can however not find a source to back up his claims.

He told me that the challenger 2 was no longer production capable as the factories which produced it were closed due to lack of funding. He also said he read that if the British Govt did not make some orders soon that Britains ability to produce any light or MBTs could be lost. He could not however remember the website.

Can anyone verify this information?

Thanks
 

shrubage

New Member
Recently i was talking to a friend, and he told me some very interesting information, i can however not find a source to back up his claims.

He told me that the challenger 2 was no longer production capable as the factories which produced it were closed due to lack of funding. He also said he read that if the British Govt did not make some orders soon that Britains ability to produce any light or MBTs could be lost. He could not however remember the website.

Can anyone verify this information?

Thanks
The Future Rapid Effect System is looking at being delayed due to the cost of UOR's for Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of the impetus for the poject evaporated with the refurbing of the 432 fleet, plus with the amount of Matiff's they're buying, the vehicles will probably find a role in the established orbat at the very least replacing the old Saxon APC's.

BAE is counting on the business so they're falling back on a tried and tested tactic of blackmailing the government with the threat of closing factories in key constituancies. Hence the talk about no longer being able to manufacture APC's. The last armoured vehicle that BAE came up with was the Vector which was essentially a Pinzgauer with armour slapped on (ala the Saxon) its twice as expensive as the Austrailian Dingo, they didn't strengten the suspension enough and front axle has a habit of breaking, Its an absolute nightmare to work on,apart from that its an engineering marvel. Oh and its a death trap when hit by a mine. So essentially they took one of the best light trucks in the world and knackered it, looks promising for the future don't it..

As for MBT's, BAE for a while marketed a version of the Chally 2 with the smoothbore gun, that eventually they'll get a fat contract to fit to the British army vehicles, but they're not offering it any more, cause nobody wanted it.

What I'm saying is they could probably with a few years notice start making new chally 2's but its not really worth diverting even more of the defence budget to them. Incidently they still laughably claim they have the capability to build a high performance jet by themselves.

I very much doubt that those factories are going to close, the FRES will eventually enter production. It would suit a lot of people in the army if they did close though, that way they could just buy the Mowags of the Swiss or Americans for a fraction of the cost and without reliability issues that comes with the BAE tag.
 

citizen578

New Member
BAE is counting on the business so they're falling back on a tried and tested tactic of blackmailing the government with the threat of closing factories in key constituancies. Hence the talk about no longer being able to manufacture APC's.
I'm inclined to agree. The CR2 technology is essentially still current and cutting edge, plus with the ongoing upgrades it is not as though all work for the MoD's armour units has dried up.

Through subsidiaries, BAE still has the Bradley IFV/CFV, the M113, CV90, BvS 10 [Viking to us Brits], Pirhana LAV, and quite a few others.

BAE has expanded its portfolio and incorporated a wealth of new technology. It's a high-profile bluff, and I don't think anyone is really falling for it.

Besides the Leo2, is there any western tank in widespread production?
 

shrubage

New Member
I'm inclined to agree. The CR2 technology is essentially still current and cutting edge, plus with the ongoing upgrades it is not as though all work for the MoD's armour units has dried up.

Through subsidiaries, BAE still has the Bradley IFV/CFV, the M113, CV90, BvS 10 [Viking to us Brits], Pirhana LAV, and quite a few others.
It would pain me to associate any of those vehicles especially the CV90 with BAE. I think people should distinguish between the entity that hawks expensive crap to the British MOD and what is essentially a global marketing company that promotes various Swedish and American kit.

Sure the CV90 and Vector could be said to be manufactured by the same company, but in reality the mentality and engineering skills of the two manufacturing teams couldn't be more different.

Besides the Leo2, is there any western tank in widespread production?
The French are still marketing the Leclerc as far as I know.
 

Grim901

New Member
I'm inclined to agree. The CR2 technology is essentially still current and cutting edge, plus with the ongoing upgrades it is not as though all work for the MoD's armour units has dried up.

Through subsidiaries, BAE still has the Bradley IFV/CFV, the M113, CV90, BvS 10 [Viking to us Brits], Pirhana LAV, and quite a few others.

BAE has expanded its portfolio and incorporated a wealth of new technology. It's a high-profile bluff, and I don't think anyone is really falling for it.

Besides the Leo2, is there any western tank in widespread production?
BAE has plenty of Armoured vehicles business. I think for the last couple of years it's been the largest producer of land armament on the planet.

The point is that none of the vehicles you listed are UK manufactured, which is why they're threatening to shut down the UK plants.

I see their point too, unless FRES is certain to enter production soon and create business for them, the UK isn't going to need a substantial land systems producer until the Chally 2's need replacing in the 2020's. And looking at the trends of UK arms procurement over the last few years i'd guess that a procurement on that scale would become an international effort anyway.

To answer the original question, I think BAE stopped marketing the Challenger 2 completely a few years ago, but none have actually been built in 10 years.
 

citizen578

New Member
Shrubbage, Grim,

yes - i would agree with those sentiments. The strangle-hold BAE has over the UK defence sector is definitely concerning.

The construction of heavy armour in the UK has effectively been at a standstill for some time, whilst BAE has been expanding its construction and intellectual property elsewhere - so I fail to see why there is any reasonable claim that UK tank making industry is worse off than it was (for example) 5 years ago. If we were to lose the orders for urgrade/maintenance/refurbishment at UK factories, than that would be something that would need dealing with.

Much as I'd enjoy seeing the UK as being the centre of the tank-building-world again, it would take a new wave of orders from the export market.

Does anyone see that coming?
 
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Grim901

New Member
Much as I'd enjoy seeing the UK as being the centre of the tank-building-world again, it would take a new wave of orders from the export market.

Does anyone see that coming?
Only way I see that happening is if, at the next round of Tank and howitzer purchases, Britain designs it's own and manages to do it better than the Germans and Americans.

The reason the Challenger never took off was because people either wanted to buy American (M1 Abrams) or because the Leopard (Germany) was better. That's the same problem the Leclerc had.

I think it's possible since BAE now has such experience in Land systems, but as I said above, I think it'll end up a multinational project so Britain will only get some of the workload.
 

citizen578

New Member
On the howitzer front, we have the M777. I realise that most of it's components are now US made, but its still a British born-and-bred design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

Perhaps when our new friends in eastern europe find the budget they will look at BAE's production line when choosing replacements for their soviet armour. Judging by the current market trends, BAE would certainly be somewhere near the top of the list of potential suppliers. Provided that the C2 design (and whatever else they have thought up) is not simply locked in a dusty vault, there's no reason why there couldn't be a future resurrection of UK based mass tank manufacturing.
 

Grim901

New Member
On the howitzer front, we have the M777. I realise that most of it's components are now US made, but its still a British born-and-bred design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M777_howitzer

Perhaps when our new friends in eastern europe find the budget they will look at BAE's production line when choosing replacements for their soviet armour. Judging by the current market trends, BAE would certainly be somewhere near the top of the list of potential suppliers. Provided that the C2 design (and whatever else they have thought up) is not simply locked in a dusty vault, there's no reason why there couldn't be a future resurrection of UK based mass tank manufacturing.
I actually meant an AS90 replacement. The M777 is, as you said more American than British now.

As for the Eastern Europeans, i've seen no indication of them buying from us, nor can I see them increasing their budgets to the necessary levels anytime soon. And if they did, they could just buy in production Leopards. On top of that I think they'd rather make it clear whos side they're on now by buying American or Russian, as many nations do. AND they're used to Russian equipment and it's designed for the Eastern European theater.
 

outsider

New Member
The British army is not exactly flooded with tanks at the moment - it only has 386 of them, all C2's. It could do with more.

Its a shame they won't start production of C2's again. If they were produced at a low rate, say 50 C2's per year for six years, surely that wouldn't be very expensive and would help to maintain armoured vehicle production in the UK.
 

ASFC

New Member
The British army is not exactly flooded with tanks at the moment - it only has 386 of them, all C2's. It could do with more.

Its a shame they won't start production of C2's again. If they were produced at a low rate, say 50 C2's per year for six years, surely that wouldn't be very expensive and would help to maintain armoured vehicle production in the UK.
Pray tell me what would an Island Nation like us do with more tanks. Heck if we buy anymore we will have similar numbers of tanks to the armies on the continent, who all have large land borders to defend.

Any new tanks would end up in storage, or the older ones would. The money would be better spent on the Navy, as an Island nation.
 

shrubage

New Member
The British army is not exactly flooded with tanks at the moment - it only has 386 of them, all C2's. It could do with more.

Its a shame they won't start production of C2's again. If they were produced at a low rate, say 50 C2's per year for six years, surely that wouldn't be very expensive and would help to maintain armoured vehicle production in the UK.
386 I'm afraid not there's less than 250 available, the rest went into storage and would take a complete 4th line overhaul to come back into service. Of the 250 about a 100 of them are in whole fleet management (mothballs) and only come out for major exercises.

The main reason I believe for the challengers lack of export success is the gun, using a rifled 120 mm gun when everybody else is using smooth bore and seperate charge and projectile which slows down rate of fire. Choosing a weapon different from the rest of NATO was pretty idiotic especially as the only reason was that they wanted to use HESH rounds which don't have any effect against modern composite armour. Oh the the Indian Arjun uses it what a success that is.

As for the AS90 the same story as the chally 2 really the turret is good the chassis itself not so much. They developed a 52 cal version which they marketed for a while, but their attempts to get it to fit on a T72 chassis hit snags. So I think they've pretty much give up on it. The 52 cal barrels for the british army were a casualty of defence cuts. There are more modern systems out there and as it was never a cheap option I think its pretty much dead.

I've worked on both chally 2 and AS90 they both have the same problem when compared with other nations kit, which is maintainance. they're both good designs but not enough thought was put into maintainance.

As for wheter the British army needs more MBT's I don't think so its crying out for new kit for Iraq and afghan, the main requirement is a replacement for the CVRT's I know the FRES (mowags) are going to replace some of them but they need a new light tank. Even if they were to just buy new turrerts for the Scimitars. Why buy more MBT's if they're just going to sit in storage while their crews go to Afghanistan as dismounts?
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
386 I'm afraid not there's less than 250 available, the rest went into storage and would take a complete 4th line overhaul to come back into service. Of the 250 about a 100 of them are in whole fleet management (mothballs) and only come out for major exercises.

The main reason I believe for the challengers lack of export success is the gun, using a rifled 120 mm gun when everybody else is using smooth bore and seperate charge and projectile which slows down rate of fire. Choosing a weapon different from the rest of NATO was pretty idiotic especially as the only reason was that they wanted to use HESH rounds which don't have any effect against modern composite armour. Oh the the Indian Arjun uses it what a success that is.

As for the AS90 the same story as the chally 2 really the turret is good the chassis itself not so much. They developed a 52 cal version which they marketed for a while, but their attempts to get it to fit on a T72 chassis hit snags. So I think they've pretty much give up on it. The 52 cal barrels for the british army were a casualty of defence cuts. There are more modern systems out there and as it was never a cheap option I think its pretty much dead.

I've worked on both chally 2 and AS90 they both have the same problem when compared with other nations kit, which is maintainance. they're both good designs but not enough thought was put into maintainance.

As for wheter the British army needs more MBT's I don't think so its crying out for new kit for Iraq and afghan, the main requirement is a replacement for the CVRT's I know the FRES (mowags) are going to replace some of them but they need a new light tank. Even if they were to just buy new turrerts for the Scimitars. Why buy more MBT's if they're just going to sit in storage while their crews go to Afghanistan as dismounts?
What is wrong with the Warrior project that the UK government just announced that they would fund.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
The BAE group is the largest manufacturer of armoued vehicles in the Western World when you take into consideration it's total portfolio of companies in Europe, South Africa and the US. It's trying to blackmail the UK Gov into signing contracts to guarantee a continued UK presence.

Chally II is an excellent tank and one of only two in recent history (Western) which has seen tank on tank action on a large scale (GWII). Colleagues of mine who served in GWII had nothing but admiration for the protection and firepower it provided vs the Iraqi Russian MBT's they faced. They also loved the HESH round because it proved so effective against bunkers and static positions.

The UK doesn't need any more heavy armour until the 2020 time frame, it's highly unlikely that they will witness a conflict where at least 2 x UK fully armoured divisions will be engaged in full-on combat. The UK currently has enough heavy and reserve kit to equip and sustain a single armoured Div, including tracked MBT's, tracked engineering vehicles, AFV's and artillery (Chally, Warrior, Terrier, CVRT, AS90, MLRS etc. etc). Instead of buying more hulls I would like to see the continued upgrading of the current inventory focusing on protection in urban areas and digitisation bringing them to the same level as the US.

The UK's priority is dealing with the asymmetrical threat in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Financial resources need to spent on more real-time intelligence assets (manned and unmanned), helicopters, MARP, tracked recce and enhanced infantry weapons to improve light and medium equipped brigades. After all if necessary they can still afford to deploy a Chally troop or squadron to A-STAN without diminishing 1 Armoured Div's capabilities.

The UK military is one of the few in the world, which has been involved in continuous operations since WWII (1968 being the only year a British Soldier has not fired a shoot in anger since 1945), the majority of these conflicts have NOT involved heavy armour, but medium / light forces. The days of huge land armies standing off against each other are over for the forceable future - the priority is to defeat the terrorist threat, which is the current 'clear and present danger'.

If anything (already stated) the need is to replace CVRT, which though old has proved very effective and continues to be upgraded, see below:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...rstBatchOfsoupedupCombatVehiclesDelivered.htm

Most current CVRT operators have no desire to switch to a more modern wheeled LAV's, they have seen too many bogged down in the A-STAN mud!

The new BAE Warrior turret (MTIP2) has just been cleared to live fire with crew and is still on track. In a worse case scenario I would like to see this fitted to not just Warrior but the current CVRT.

Quote taken from Janes 17th Dec 08 issue: "BAE systems has just received full manned crew clearence for the MTIP2 turret programme".

Quote taken from Deagal.com (Dec 08): "MTIP2 is a BAE Systems-funded project to de-risk both the Warrior Fightability and Lethality Improvement Programme (WFLIP) and the FRES Scout vehicle. The company's offerings into the competitions for the two programmes use different turrets with a common architecture and many common systems, including CTAS, to reduce the training and logistics burden. During the trials, a number of users commented that the turret exhibited a step change in stabilisation performance from the Challenger 2 tank, widely regarded as the benchmark. Over the course of three trials open days, visitors saw the system perform static and moving firings against static and moving targets, using both training and armour-piercing rounds. 90 rounds were fired from the 40mm gun and 600 rounds from the chain gun, achieving high levels of accuracy and reliability."
 
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kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The BAE group is the largest manufacturer of armoued vehicles in the Western World
Only for the past 3 years, after they bought Alvis Vickers and UDI - and only because they outbid GDLS on Alvis Vickers in 2004. BAE's market position hasn't had any effect on the Chally 2, neither positive nor negative.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Only for the past 3 years, after they bought Alvis Vickers and UDI - and only because they outbid GDLS on Alvis Vickers in 2004. BAE's market position hasn't had any effect on the Chally 2, neither positive nor negative.
My comment about BAE was meant to reflect there growing behemoth status since they began acquiring overseas assets. They must have had access to a 'crystal ball' when deciding to buy United Defense prior to GWII?

BAE are still very heavily involved in upgrade programmes across the UK, and whilst they have not been contracted to manufacture new build vehicles (including additional Chally II's) they will continue to maintain a heavy engineering capability. Just look at the upgrades they have completed for legacy vehicles such as the Bulldog.

Looking at the photo of the upgraded CVRT below:

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/T...G&alt=One of the new enhanced combat vehicles

it looks like the new perforated armour discussed in the following BBC science report has been applied behind the BAE slat armour to provide additional protection with minimal weight increase.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7811567.stm

This reflects the ongoing pressure on both industry and R&D to come up with improved and lighter solutions, which can be introduced under the ongoing UOR's.
 
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Ryan UK

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #17
A very interesting read thank you.

So for a quick summary:

BAE is making idle threats about stopping armored production, whilst the Chally is not in production and has not been for a while, it can easily be resumed when needed. IFVs continue to be produced

correct?
 

Grim901

New Member
A very interesting read thank you.

So for a quick summary:

BAE is making idle threats about stopping armored production, whilst the Chally is not in production and has not been for a while, it can easily be resumed when needed. IFVs continue to be produced

correct?
IFV's are still serviced in the Uk and the capabilities are still there to produce them and MBT's, but none currently are.
 

British Post

New Member
He's right, IFV's are still used back home. But the only question is, why are they serviced but yet MBT's are not? (If I'm remembering it correctly)
 

winnyfield

New Member
Besides the Leo2, is there any western tank in widespread production?
The US has a fairly large refurbishing program that almost like full production and should keep the industrial base around a very long time.

The UK as a small single customer, the loss of production capability has always been an ongoing issue; SA80 rifle, Nimrod aircraft etc.

UPDATE: refurbishing an Abrams
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2PyEIkZr1E"]YouTube - Extreme Engineering (2/7) - M1 Abrams tank[/ame]
 
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