Battlefield airlifter for ADF

[cherry]

For Phase 2 of Project Air8000 for the Australian Defence Force, a new battlefield airlifter is to be purchased for up to $1B. Presumably this is a replacement for the ageing Caribou aircraft. If so, does anybody know what sort of aircraft ADF have in mind to replace this capability? My thoughts are to replace the 14 Caribou with a mixture of rotary aircraft and fixed wings. For example, an additional 4 chinook choppers (marinised) to operate off our new amphib ships, which will increase army heavy lift ability with our existing soon to be upgraded 6 chinooks, and then supplement this with either 10 C-295 or C27-J fixed wing. The other option would be to simply purchase 14 new chinooks with the ability for air-to-air refuelling, and convert some C-130H into refuelling tankers. Osprey would be a handy replacement, but the extreme costs of this aircraft would most likely rule them out of contention.

With a few C-130H as tankers, this would permit other rotary craft to be fitted with refuelling capability. The reduced C-130H availability could later be supplemented with longer ranged C-17 or A400-M???????
Just trying to raise some debate.

 

[Aussie Digger]

It is a topic worth debating. Mr HILL stated at Avalon that the current defence capability plan is to be "fine-tuned" later this year. I'm betting AIR 8000 is the biggest change in the plan.

The ADF has been complaining for years about it's lack of airlift and I'd bet the Government will finally start to listen to them. They are trying to build "expeditionary" capable forces and if they want to go on "expeditions" they have to be able to get there. The only way this has been capable is through the use of chartered civilian airlifters.

Even relatively minor deployments (a 70 man SASR Squadron deployment to Afganistan is one such deployment) have only been possible because of the civilian airlifters. This is ridiculous. The first time the ADF has to deploy into a hostile zone, the civilian airlifters will run a mile.

I'm betting the C-130H upgrade will be scrapped and the Government will join the A400M program to acquire 12 or so A400's to replace the C-130H's.

I agree about the battlefield airlifter. The original project was to replace the Caribou with a one on one replacement with either the C-235, C-295 or C-27J chosen.

Now a mixed fleet of fixxed wing and rotorcraft will be chosen I reckon. This is simply because it's uneconomical to continue to operate the Caribou and there is nothing that can directly replace it. I'd guess up to 12 fixed wing aircraft will be acquired and maybe up to 4 new Chooks, to round out a Squadron within 5 Aviation Regt...

 

[Boyle]

to replace the DHC Caribou i think we should have a look at the AN72 becouse its cheap and performs and is stol unlike C27 spartand and aircraft like that

 

[Aussie Digger]

The Australian Government has significant concerns about Russian equipment and is unlikely to ever acquire any. These concerns include the quality, capability and safety of the equipment, the availability of support for Russian equipment (which is a concern of a LOT of users of Russian military kit) plus the lack of inter-operability with our allies and the incompatibility of the logistic systems.

The C-27 for instance uses the exact same engines and propellers as the C-130J-30 (already in service with the RAAF) and basically similiar avionics and will use the same communictions end EWSP systems if chosen, hence it being considered the most likely option for AIR 8000. A combined purchased of fixed wing aircraft and additional helicopters is the most likely option in my view...

 

[Boyle]

The Australian Government has significant concerns about Russian equipment and is unlikely to ever acquire any. These concerns include the quality, capability and safety of the equipment, the availability of support for Russian equipment (which is a concern of a LOT of users of Russian military kit) plus the lack of inter-operability with our allies and the incompatibility of the logistic systems.

The C-27 for instance uses the exact same engines and propellers as the C-130J-30 (already in service with the RAAF) and basically similiar avionics and will use the same communictions end EWSP systems if chosen, hence it being considered the most likely option for AIR 8000. A combined purchased of fixed wing aircraft and additional helicopters is the most likely option in my view...

The An 72 is actually an Ukranine Aircraft
and there is a Model designed and built for the western Users
oit has new avionics and the new engines are the same type as the new RAAF A330MRTT and can be mantained by Quantas like our C130's and A330 MRTT

it outperforms and is budgetly sound and the C27 isnt even STOL
But good points on the C130 engine

 

[Aussie Digger]

Fair enough, they're good points but I can't see this aircraft being included in AIR 8000 no matter how many good points are made. The ADF just doesn't appear interested in "Soviet bloc" equipment...

 

[Boyle]

what if someone in the US came out with an almost totally the same design as the an72 you got to admit that if boeing had built it and it was still the same price it would be prefect

 

[Aussie Digger]

It would be looked upon more favourably than the AN72 I would bet. I personally think the V-22 is the perfect replacement. It has V/STOL capability, can carry the same payload as the Caribou, has a higher cruising speed and almost the same range. Of course it's ridiculously expensive, but capability wise it's un-matched...

 

[Boyle]

It would be looked upon more favourably than the AN72 I would bet. I personally think the V-22 is the perfect replacement. It has V/STOL capability, can carry the same payload as the Caribou, has a higher cruising speed and almost the same range. Of course it's ridiculously expensive, but capability wise it's un-matched...

Australia wouldnt want the V22 at first because it new technology thats untested and especially not combat tested

 

[Aussie Digger]

Australia wouldnt want the V22 at first because it new technology thats untested and especially not combat tested

Just like the JSF...

 

[Boyle]

good point but we are getting the CTOL version because Australia allready said that they wanted to wait to the US test the VTOL JSF for a few years
:coffee

they posted this a year ago

 

[Aussie Digger]

True, I'm fairly certain the first 2 of the 3 phases for AIR 6000 will concentrate on CTOL JSF's, to replace the urgently required A2A capability of the Hornets and commence replacement of our strike and air to ground capabilities. I would not be at all surprised however to see V/STOL F-35's purchased "down the track" due to the inherent flexibility they would provide...

Getting back "on track" however, this is a major reason the RAAF should be taking a very good look at the Osprey. It's capabilities are utterley unique and given the relatively small order the RAAF would be looking at no matter which replacement aircraft is chosen (14 -18 aircraft at the most) they may decide that it is affordable (and necessary).

This could then be "dove-tailed" onto the end of the USMC and USAF purchases when the aircraft is at it's cheapest and most highly developed and proven, given that the Caribou is already planned to run until 2010 and can be made to last longer if necessary...
By 2010, the MV-22 may not be looking quite as "distant" as it does now. It should be in service with USMC and USAF by that stage and well into it's production run...

 

[gf0012-aust]

There's starting to be some persistent traffic coming out of Russell that the RAAF may well fly off stollie JSF's from the pretend aircraft carriers. The RANFAA won't be going back to fixed wing combat aircraft - but the RAAF may well pick up the job.

It's a long way off, but the "noise" hasn't abated since it started. This kind of stuff when it has no substance nromally carks it fairly early.

 

[Boyle]

Going to miss aircraft like the Caribou,F111 and the F18

Sad

 

[Aussie Digger]

Yep, The ADF is going to "look" completely different in 10 years time... Hopefully it should be more capable though and not just qualitatively either, mass stil has it's place on the battlefield...

 

[nz enthusiast]

How much do you think the NZ airforce will look the same?
I think Australia could go V-22. The tech is being used quite a bit by the US marines and the way it can change between heli and plane mode could make it very useful in some operations.

 

[gf0012-aust]

How much do you think the NZ airforce will look the same?
I think Australia could go V-22. The tech is being used quite a bit by the US marines and the way it can change between heli and plane mode could make it very useful in some operations.

re V-22, no one I know in the ADF (and at Russell) is remotely interested in the Osprey.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Barring a complete political turnaround I'd expect the RNZAF to resemble what it does today with a couple of exceptions. NH-90 and a new training helo will replace the Iroquois and Sioux helo's.

I am fairly positive the P-3K will still be in-service though it will probably be upgraded somewhat and "may" and this is a big "may" have a stand-off anti-ship/land attack missile capability.

The C-130H Hercules will either remain in-service, in an upgraded form or will be replaced. If Australia chooses to acquire the A400M, NZ "may" well forgo the C-130 upgrade and retire it's Hercules force and "piggy-back" the Australian order for an A400M order, though I think an upgraded C-130 variant is most likely.

The B-757 will still be in-service and probably not added to or upgraded. An air to air refuelling capability is a possibility for this sort of aircraft and would provide NZ with a relatively cheap "niche" capability that it could offer in support of it's allies and thus improve NZ's usefulness to any "coalition". It would probably rquire a change of Government for this sort of capability to be introduced though.

I doubt NZ will regain a significant air combat force.This would be an expensive and lengthy process. A possibility is a trainer/light strike aircraft that could provide air support to deployed ground forces on low level peace-keeping/making operations. This would be relatively affordable (even Ireland possesses such a capability) and could be fairly quickly introduced.

Anyhoo getting back on track. I believe the Osprey has been considered by the AIR 8000 project team, though I seriously doubt it will be in contention to replace the Caribou. It is likely to be far too expensive and "radical" for the ADF to contemplate...

V/STOL JSF's would be nice. Even Mr HILL has publicly hinted that F-35B's will be looked at in coming years by the AIR 6000 team...

 

[Supe]

Is there any desire from the Australian government or RAAF to acquire one or two C17's to augment and/or replace the current arrangement of contracting airlift via the Antonov's and RAF/USAF C17's?

 

[nz enthusiast]

There was an interview of the leader of the Australian air force and it soudns like they are happy to contract aircraft to do it for them. He also said there was no very modern plane around that would be worth Australia buying for the long term. If Australia goes for the A400M which may have a larger cargo capacity (you can;t be certain if it doesn't becuase it hasn't really been developed yet) could fix a part of this problem.