Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by Todjaeger

Personally I would prefer that RAAF AP-3C Orions be armed with AGM-65 Mavericks instead of the AGM-114 Hellfire/Hellfire II. While the Taliban do not seem to be equipped with (or at least it has not made the news where I am) with manpack SAMs, it is not outside the realm of possibility. With that in mind, I would just as soon not risk a highly valuable aircraft that could not really be replaced when alternate munitions would keep it safer. The RAAF also could potentially make use of Kiwi expertise in carrying out the fitout.

The max range I have come across for the Hellfire II is ~8km, hence my preference for the AP-3Cs being equipped with Mavericks which have three times the range. I do not believe any glide kits are available, nor do I think they would be of use if there were any. The Hellfire is a laser-guided missile (GPS/datalink not currently available) with a few different lock-on options, before & after firing essentially. Given the missile's small size (~45kg, 1.6 m x 18 cm) the range of both the seeker and motor max out at ~8km, therefore having either GPS and/or glide kits would be less than useful. It is possible that somethink like a Hellfire III might be developed, since I believe that the JCM (Joint Common Missile) which was to replace the Hellfire has been cancelled. In which case there might be additional iterations of Hellfire where such features could become useful.

-Cheers

I thought I saw somewhere that JDAMs were being developed as an option for the P-8A Posseiden; if they could be retrofitted to the APC-3 then they would be a much better option

[swerve]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

It is notable that the Brimstone missile (same missile body and rocket motor as Hellfire) is credited with a standoff range of 25k's. (Mostly because of altitude and increased launch speed I'd suggest). ...

Body is based on Hellfire, but modified - strengthened for sustained high-speed carriage. ATK, which makes the motors for both Hellfire & Brimstone, said in its 2001 annual report that -

we currently have contracts for the production of warheads for the Hellfire/Longbow and AMRAAM missiles and a contract for the development and production of the Brimstone warhead and rocket motors.

That implies that the Brimstone motor is also different from that of Hellfire - though still American.

[Todjaeger]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I thought I saw somewhere that JDAMs were being developed as an option for the P-8A Posseiden; if they could be retrofitted to the APC-3 then they would be a much better option

Not sure that JDAMs would be appropriate for the AP-3C, at least not to attack detected targets in an area like Afghanistan. The JDAM for one thing has a listed CEP of 13m using INS/GPS guidance, which I would imagine would be slightly larger than desired when the munitions would likely be used against fairly small targets. Of greater (IMO) issue though is that being a INS/GPS guidance tail kit, I do not believe it would be suitable for use vs. moving targets.

As for the Hellfire and Brimstone... Brimstone I believe would be suitable, having a operational range of ~12km and being an all-weather missile with its own on-board MMW radar seeker and programming to allow independent target selection. Still not so sure that Hellfire would do though. Having read up on the two missiles, the Hellfire did indeed serve as much of the base for the Brimstone, but it is not as capable (at least in the anti-armour sense). The Brimstone is ~2kg heavier, and about 18 cm that a AGM-114M Hellfire II, the blast-frag variant. A more significant difference between the two though, is that the Brimstone has been designed to, and cleared for, operation from fixed-wing aircraft whereas the Hellfire variants are only configured for airborne use from helicopters.

In effect, a working launch system as well as the needed targeting systems would need to be adapted or developed for use from the AP-3C. Between the age of the platform, when they are expected to be replaced, and the difficulties and time required to integrate something like the Hellfire onto a P-3 Orion, I am not certain it would be worthwhile.

-Cheers

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Todjaeger

Not sure that JDAMs would be appropriate for the AP-3C, at least not to attack detected targets in an area like Afghanistan. The JDAM for one thing has a listed CEP of 13m using INS/GPS guidance, which I would imagine would be slightly larger than desired when the munitions would likely be used against fairly small targets. Of greater (IMO) issue though is that being a INS/GPS guidance tail kit, I do not believe it would be suitable for use vs. moving targets.

As for the Hellfire and Brimstone... Brimstone I believe would be suitable, having a operational range of ~12km and being an all-weather missile with its own on-board MMW radar seeker and programming to allow independent target selection. Still not so sure that Hellfire would do though. Having read up on the two missiles, the Hellfire did indeed serve as much of the base for the Brimstone, but it is not as capable (at least in the anti-armour sense). The Brimstone is ~2kg heavier, and about 18 cm that a AGM-114M Hellfire II, the blast-frag variant. A more significant difference between the two though, is that the Brimstone has been designed to, and cleared for, operation from fixed-wing aircraft whereas the Hellfire variants are only configured for airborne use from helicopters.

In effect, a working launch system as well as the needed targeting systems would need to be adapted or developed for use from the AP-3C. Between the age of the platform, when they are expected to be replaced, and the difficulties and time required to integrate something like the Hellfire onto a P-3 Orion, I am not certain it would be worthwhile.

-Cheers

Hellfire is not restricted to Helo platforms. They have been integrated onto Predator/Sky Warrior UAV's for a start and they have now been integrated on Iraqi fixed wing Cessna Caravans...

YouTube - Combat Camera Video: Iraqi Air Force...

Either Brimstone or Hellfire is fine by me, but as we already have Hellfire in-service with ADF many of the procurement issues with Hellfire have already been dealt with... I agree that integration would have to be conducted, but then it would no matter what weapon was selected.

I envisage the RAAF AP-3C's performing much the same role as the caravans, primarily overland ISR as they are right now but with an immediate rapid response capability, if required to a wide range of threats.

I agree, that JDAM isn't exactly what is required in this role...

[Todjaeger]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

Hellfire is not restricted to Helo platforms. They have been integrated onto Predator/Sky Warrior UAV's for a start and they have now been integrated on Iraqi fixed wing Cessna Caravans...

<insert faceplant here> I had completely forgotten about the Predator carrying Hellfires... How embarrassing. The Caravans I had been unaware of though.

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

Either Brimstone or Hellfire is fine by me, but as we already have Hellfire in-service with ADF many of the procurement issues with Hellfire have already been dealt with... I agree that integration would have to be conducted, but then it would no matter what weapon was selected.

I envisage the RAAF AP-3C's performing much the same role as the caravans, primarily overland ISR as they are right now but with an immediate rapid response capability, if required to a wide range of threats.

I agree, that JDAM isn't exactly what is required in this role...

In terms of the AP-3C having the option of engaging a detected target is, IMO a good idea. My only issue is what I had raised before, assuring the safety of the aircraft as they are only available in (very) limited numbers and effectively cannot be replaced. Come to think of it though, there is a possible secondary concern with arming an Orion with an ASM. This is whether or not a short-ranged ASM can be effectively use without having a negative impact upon the performance of its ISR functions.

Of course, this is not something we would know for certain, as the actual effective altitude and range of the Hellfire is in question, as well as what the optimum altitude and range is for the AP-3C Orions when in the ISR role.

-Cheers

[swerve]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

Hellfire is not restricted to Helo platforms. They have been integrated onto Predator/Sky Warrior UAV's for a start and they have now been integrated on Iraqi fixed wing Cessna Caravans....

I think it's a matter of launch platform speed. Hellfire can be launched from relatively slow platforms, not fast jets. Predator is slower than many helicopters, & Cessna Caravan comparable with fast helicopters.

P-3 is a lot faster, maybe (but I don't really know) too fast for Hellfire.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by swerve

I think it's a matter of launch platform speed. Hellfire can be launched from relatively slow platforms, not fast jets. Predator is slower than many helicopters, & Cessna Caravan comparable with fast helicopters.

P-3 is a lot faster, maybe (but I don't really know) too fast for Hellfire.

Well it's going to be difficult to judge from publicly available data. The P-3C's top speed is much faster than a Caravan or any helo, but how much time do they spend at top speed?

At normal cruise speeds, I don't believe the Hellfire should experience any major problems.

Out of interest, the USMC has recently integrated Hellfire onto it's KC-130J tankers to provide a defacto "tanker/gunship" combo, so launch speed/altitude clearly isn't a major issue for Hellfire for the sorts of speeds a Hercules can achieve, only sustained high speed and the P-3C clearly ain't a supersonic tactical fighter....

[gf0012-aust]

Originally Posted by Aussie Digger

At normal cruise speeds, I don't believe the Hellfire should experience any major problems. The P-3C ain't exactly a supersonic tactical fighter...

I would think that the speed at which they do circle work to drop sonabuoys is more than within the launch parameters of a hellfire.

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by Todjaeger

<insert faceplant here> I had completely forgotten about the Predator carrying Hellfires... How embarrassing. The Caravans I had been unaware of though.

That's alright, I'd forgotten the Hellfire had recently been integrated onto USMC KC-130J Hercules only recently, otherwise I'd have brought that up MUCH earlier...

It seems MUCH the same idea as I have for RAAF's AP-3C's, which as I've pointed out any number of times ARE in theatre and it's difficult to conceive how arming a tanker is any less of a waste of time than arming an ISR aircraft...

In terms of the AP-3C having the option of engaging a detected target is, IMO a good idea. My only issue is what I had raised before, assuring the safety of the aircraft as they are only available in (very) limited numbers and effectively cannot be replaced. Come to think of it though, there is a possible secondary concern with arming an Orion with an ASM. This is whether or not a short-ranged ASM can be effectively use without having a negative impact upon the performance of its ISR functions.

Of course, this is not something we would know for certain, as the actual effective altitude and range of the Hellfire is in question, as well as what the optimum altitude and range is for the AP-3C Orions when in the ISR role.

-Cheers

Well the reason I think it would be useful are:

A. The AP-3C is being employed in the over-land ISR role, to detect land based targets. It has been specifically equipped with Star Safire HD EO/IR surveillance system for the Iraq theatre and is (I understand) equipped with laser targetting payload as well, so it is ALREADY capable of designating targets...

B. The Hellfire range from a hovering helo is up to 8k's. In the roles currently being performed the only threat to aircraft is small arms and machine gun fire for short duration bursts. There is limited to no missile threat and those that may exist during short durations (before being targetted and neutralised themselves) cannot reach 8k ranges... An AP-3C (or a C-130J) will be flying faster (and usually higher) than any helo can reach and therefore range performance WILL be increased for the Hellfire.

C. It is already in ADF inventory and from all appearances is relatively simple to integrate onto an aircraft, especially one already mounting the necessary targetting capabilities...

I could be wrong, but it seems possible and others think a similar installation is worth their while. I think it would be an excellent capability enhancement for RAAF, at relatively cheap overall cost too...

That's the last I'll say on this. It doesn't appear in DCP and ADF is "tight" at present, but urgent operational requirements spring up and this seems like a useful effort in the anti-terrorist ops that seem likely to pre-occupy ADF for some time to come, yet...

[Aussie Digger]

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

I would think that the speed at which they do circle work to drop sonabuoys is more than within the launch parameters of a hellfire.

Agreed. Plus, if a C-130 can carry them...

[swerve]

Originally Posted by gf0012-aust

I would think that the speed at which they do circle work to drop sonabuoys is more than within the launch parameters of a hellfire.

Good point. It can always slow down to Hellfire launch speed. Same with the C-130 AD mentioned, where in gunship operations it would normally be flying rather slowly.

I think that for fast jets, there's also a problem with Hellfires ability to withstand extended high-speed carriage, but that shouldn't be an issue with the relatively low cruise speed of a C-130, & probably not for a P-3.

[t68]

With the Dutch planning to pull out of a-Stan, do people think it is Australia best interest to take completely from the Dutch?

Army chief Lieutenant General Gillespie from reports from the Australian newspaper seems to think we would not have a problem taking over.

How long do you think an Australian task force could keep it up and would we have the necessary equipment ready to go?

Would tiger be ready to deploy or would have to rely on the Americans for air support, a troop of Abrams should imo be a necessity for such a deployment.

If it came to the crunch what type of force should we deploy ie mechanised or motorised, maybe light infantry with the kiwi’s backing up with their nzlav .

[StevoJH]

Theoretically the Australian Army could do it, however it would effectively mean deploying 1/3rd of the army over seas (~1 Brigade) and would require pulling out from all other commitments.

A half squadron of Tigers shoud be deployable sometime next year.

However I don't know how long it could be sustained without calling up reserve units.

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Originally Posted by StevoJH

Theoretically the Australian Army could do it, however it would effectively mean deploying 1/3rd of the army over seas (~1 Brigade) and would require pulling out from all other commitments.

A half squadron of Tigers shoud be deployable sometime next year.

However I don't know how long it could be sustained without calling up reserve units.

You wouldn’t need a full brigade; just a battlegroup centred on an infantry battalion would be about right, probably 2~3000 personnel including the larger PRT at most. Offcourse we would need to deploy fire support assets (arty and ARH) and fast movers. I don’t think such a deployment is beyond our capability or unsustainable even with other commitments. The only issue I can see is with the ARH's, to deploy 6x airframes for any length of time we would need the whole 22 up and running. Then again I’m sure the Marines or US army can lend us a few AH-1’s or AH-64’s. Deploying two flights of Hornets shouldn’t be a problem.

Offcourse the government would have to be prepared for more casualties.

[battlensign]

Originally Posted by StevoJH

Theoretically the Australian Army could do it, however it would effectively mean deploying 1/3rd of the army over seas (~1 Brigade) and would require pulling out from all other commitments.

A half squadron of Tigers shoud be deployable sometime next year.

However I don't know how long it could be sustained without calling up reserve units.

It may just be the excuse we need to get out of Timor though.

Apparently according to the Australian today there is growing unease about the presence of Australian forces there. However, the same story also talks of the growing Chinese influence there and the last thing the government would want is a power/presence vacuum.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/poli...-1225801855117

Maybe we could strike a deal with the dutch to maintain a 1200-1500 person battlegroup
there if we took over the leadership role.....(those F16s and AH-64s would sure be handy)

Brett.