PLAN's growing power. Input needed.

[Red aRRow]

Last couple of years everybody has seen lots of spy photos coming out of the shipyards at Shanghai and some others (which I don't know the names). However I have lost track of the state of the art DDGs and FFGs which are being churned out. Can some of our Chinese members please enlighten me on the current strength and future plans of the PLA Navy.

[Winter]

Last couple of years everybody has seen lots of spy photos coming out of the shipyards at Shanghai and some others (which I don't know the names). However I have lost track of the state of the art DDGs and FFGs which are being churned out. Can some of our Chinese members please enlighten me on the current strength and future plans of the PLA Navy.

You might find this website useful, or you might not:

http://www.sinodefence.com

[tatra]

www.china-defense.com has a forum which is also informative for this issue.

[gf0012-aust]

An article by the Lexington Institute - in light of the progress made by FORCENET in the last 3 months, it would be interesting to see how most OPFORs view the world now.


China has been busy trying to develop a military that can isolate Taiwan, and, if necessary, hold the U.S. at bay. The PLAN’s one hope for success in a campaign against Taiwan is to blockade the island and limit, or even negate, a U.S. response by challenging the U.S. naval presence in the waters to the east of Taiwan. The target of choice, naturally, is a U.S. aircraft carrier.

Attacking a U.S. aircraft carrier, particularly one steaming in harms way, is one of the most difficult challenges facing any hostile power. In Aircraft Carrier (In)vulnerability, author Dr. Loren Thompson concludes that U.S. aircraft carriers are extremely difficult to find and target. Were it even possible for an adversary to do so, the defensive firepower in the carrier battle group makes it highly unlikely that the aircraft carrier could be attacked successfully.

The substantial defensive capability that the Navy enjoys with its current assets will be further augmented by a number of programs presently underway. First, there is the advanced E-2C Hawkeye based on the Radar Modernization Program (RMP). Providing enhanced airborne command-and-control as well as an expanded surveillance umbrella, the Hawkeye will act as an airborne node for Cooperative Engagement Capability, supporting complex air defense missions and leveraging the RMP’s electronically-steered Ultra-High Frequency radar system. Second, the U.S. Navy and the Missile Defense Agency are working hard to develop the Area Missile Defense System and the Theaterwide Missile Defense System to counter ballistic missile threats at various ranges. Finally, the extended range active missile (ERAM) will be deployed on Aegis-capable ships to address advanced cruise missile and aircraft threats.

On the offensive side, extended air defense will be enabled by the deployment of the F/A-18 E/F and F-35 JSF. With its enhanced radar, large payload, increased range and networked data sharing, the F/A-18 E/F will allow the carrier battle group to operate at a greater distance from the enemy while delivering a more powerful punch. The addition of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter with its stealth capability and advanced avionics at the end of the decade will further enhance the ability of carrier-based aviation to conduct both offensive and defensive missions.

Perhaps most significantly, the U.S. Navy is developing Forcenet, an information architecture that networks sensors, weapons, command-and-control, databases and platforms. Integrating ground, air, space and sea-based capabilities, Forcenet will serve as the structure for acquiring, processing and distributing a vast amount of information that will improve battle space awareness for both offensive and defensive operations.

The Chinese can buy ships and missiles, but no one is selling net-centric capabilities. This alone is likely to tip the scales in favor of the U.S. Navy in terms of overall combat capability in the region. China’s current intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities do not, as yet, allow the PLAN even to see over the horizon. In the race to dominate the seas, don’t bet on China. As fast as the Chinese move to improve their capabilities, the U.S. Navy’s transformation plan will only widen the gap between itself and the PLAN. Pity the poor PLAN strategic planner.


http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/defense/030915b.asp

[Red aRRow]

thanks everyone.

[P.A.F]

Once china and it's navy gain there Presence in southern pakistan via the new Gwadar port, no one will have the guts to attack pakistan from the south. also all of the trade from asia to the middle east and visa versa will have to go through the pakistan AND chinese navy's before getting to its destination. therefore china and pakistan will occupy the indian and arabian waters and have more strenght then it's competitors :)

Merging

[big_evil]

As we all know China is helping Pakistan a great deal to build the Gwadar Port so that Karachi Port isn't the only major port which Pakistan depends up on at all times and which is quite vulnerable to an Indian Navy strike (given Pakistan'z quite weak naval forces as I see it being a Pakistani myself). Gwadar would provide Pakistan with more of a strategic depth as far as water communications and traffic is concerned. The middle eastern countries would easily be able to send help to Pakistan in case of any crisis (and if they're willing to help UNLIKE Iran and Libya). China could most probably use Gwadar to make its presence felt in the Arabian Sea and would most likely challenge the Indian Navy's "blue-water-navy" ambitions.
I think I'd like the Chinese to be present in the Arabian Sea as it would provide a sort of a psychologically positive effect on PN's moral... keeping indian navy vessels quiet in their dockz while at the same time keeping the U.S. navy away from our waterz... seeing that the U.S. thinks that the whole world is its property and it has the right to do watever it feelz like doing. From my point of view, if there's one country who can challenge and keep a check on U.S. power and hegemony........it is CHINA with its 9% average of economic growth and a fast modernisation of its forces. Take my word, when the days of the U.S. Empire are over....China's gona be here to stay and we as Pakistaniz should prove to the Chinese that our friendship is sincere and deeper than any other alliance...... and to a great extent China sees this. Even if it is improving its relations with India... doesnt mean they're willing to sacrifice **** friendship at the cost of Indian friendship.. they're just playing by the rules! So I don't see a problem for Pakistan in allowing the Chinese navy to have a taste of the Arabian Sea :smokingc:

[big_evil]

So what do you guyz think? Post your comments and views and let me know! And if any one has any lastest articles or news on this issue. Do paste the link for all of us to enlighten ourselves on this :alian

[P.A.F]

yes my fellow pakistani friend. i agree 100% with you and as i said in my last post, the gwadar port has vastly improved pakistans position in asia as well as the middle east. it also will increase pakistan's naval radius.
unfortunatly there is a down side to this. i read an article on www. dawn .com that people in balochestan were against this project and see it as a chinese invasion of pakistan. :(

[P.A.F]

o and by the way the gwadar port will have a motor way, a railway, and canals leading goods in and out of pakistan. pakistan is also said that it will make around 12 billion dollars anually from this port.

[Panzer]

pakistan is also said that it will make around 12 billion dollars anually from this port.

12 billion dollars per year seem quite unreasonable expectation since Pakistan's GDP is around 65 billion dollars.

[WebMaster]

Don't write an essay in the subjectline. It should be short. We should open training school here so we know how things should be in a discussion forum.

There is already discussion going on this topic and I am merging this into that. :cop

[big_evil]

here u go guyz...this article is a bit old but does tell us about Indian worries about China's help in the Gwadar Port...
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/23gp.htm

Read it n let me know what do u think abt it...

[Revival_786]

Uh Panzer... Pakistans GDP is more like 310 billion (2002).

[big_evil]

Pakistan having $310 billion GDP???? guyz...I'm a Pakistani too but hello!! lets be rational about this..... I mean... come on!! this is more like a Chinese figure man! Pakistan's maximum wud be around $75-$80 billion...

[Red aRRow]

Revival_786 is right. Pakistan's GDP (purchasing power parity) was around 300 billion U.S dollars in 2002.

[P.A.F]

yes. a large part of that is because of pakistan's textile's industry. did you know that by 2010 pakistan will be the worlds largest textiles exporter.

[Panzer]

Uh Panzer... Pakistans GDP is more like 310 billion (2002).

These figures are for 2001

Pakistan

GDP (US$ bn) 61.3
GDP per head (US$) 446
GDP per head (US$ at PPP) 1,848
Consumer price inflation (av; %) 4.4
Current-account balance (US$ bn) -1.4
% of GDP -2.3
Exports of goods fob (US$ bn) 8.63
Imports of goods fob (US$ bn) -10.88
External debt (US$ bn) 34.8
Debt-service ratio, paid (%) 22.5

Link

http://www.economist.com/countries/Pakistan/profile.cfm?folder=Profile-Economic%20Structure

[big_evil]

man! gimme a REASONABLE explaination of Pak.'s GDP jumping from around $61b in 2001 to $300b in 2002..........just doesnt sound sensible!!

[Panzer]

man! gimme a REASONABLE explaination of Pak.'s GDP jumping from around $61b in 2001 to $300b in 2002..........just doesnt sound sensible!!

The figure of $61b in 2001 is GDP in actual dollar terms

Whereas the figure of $300b in 2002 is in terms of purchasing power parity.

purchasing power parity
A theory stating that over the long term the exchange rate between two currencies adjusts to relative price levels, that is, relative purchasing power.

In other words, an identical good in different countries should cost the same after adjusting for currency.

If a commodity is valued at $50 in US and same is available for $10 in Pakistan, it means a dollar in Pakistan is equal to 5 dollars in US.

Basically adusting for currency differences and cost of living factor

Since P.A.F gave value of $12 billion in actual terms/money, it is only fair to compare it with actual GDP in money terms.

[big_evil]

I know abt PPP (purchasing power parity) dude! All I'm saying is... if u're giving the GDP as $61b in 2001 in real terms than the comparison should also be in real terms in the preceeding years not by PPP otherwise ...then u shud give us the PPP for 2001....... getting ma point ppl ??? :roll

[Panzer]

Pakistan

GDP purchasing power parity - $299 billion (2001 est.)

GDP: purchasing power parity - $311 billion (2002 est.)

I am still tring to find GDP in real terms. I will post it as soon as i get it.

Though seeing the growth in terms of ppp i would estimate that GDP in real terms is close to $63.5 billion in 2002.

[big_evil]

thnx Panzer dude....for the interesting info...
well yeah even I think that Pakistan's most recent....like even 2003's GDP in real terms cant be more than $65b our growth rate is pretty slow as compared to India n China

[mukul]

Well after the new port opens china alreday surronded india from all sides , port in pak , port in bangladesh and in mayanmer ..

India strategist already seen this and alreday lauched to counter to meet PLAN .

1) India in principle decided to give Prethiv missiles to Vietnam , this is to show china if he can armed its neighour then India can also.

2)India is now developing a port in Iran close to make watch in Pak New port

3) India frist outside miitry base in Afgan borden is already working and now air strip had been to accomodate Su30 planes .

4) India opens its Naval base in adman Inlands , inorder to chock East Asia in case of crises , As all ships pass though Adman Islands .

5) India decided to petrol wiht US ship from East to West.

6) India is now also showing its presence in Vietnam seas , If chines Navy come to Pak port and make it base then Indian Navy will deploy its assests in South China sea which make chines lines vurnable .

[mysterious]

You see, it doesn't effect much to China if it puts a dozen of its shipz at Gwadar as even though its not that modernized as yet, it won't have a great effect on the number of its fleet in South China see so even if India decides to put one or two more shipz there, I hardly think that would even raise a Chinese eyebrow. As far as China and India arming each other's neighbors to create a balance is concerned, I think China's had more success than India.

[Panzer]

1) India in principle decided to give Prethiv missiles to Vietnam , this is to show china if he can armed its neighour then India can also.

2)India is now developing a port in Iran close to make watch in Pak New port.

I didnot know these two facts.Can you give the link where these are mentioned.

[mukul]

Not really , when india ships visit vietnam , china raisis its eyebrow.

Well quantity never match quality. With wide range of weapons India can nutrulise any navy in seconds .


Like take an examples ....... If India fires 300 Bhramos anti ships missiles from land based lauchpad or from planes from 250 away , it can disable all 300 ships within 5 mins. Same goes India too but India can survive it ships by putting out of range

Do chines want to take a risk to lost its navy wihtin 5 mins ? ;)

Cmon man now quality of wepons will decide the future of war not quanitity,


Let take this ..... If china enter into Indian ocean then India will shif towards US , then US will Arm India heavly to counter China ...... and China never take this risk

Anyway , this is secret understanding between India and China , that china will allow india regional status .

[mysterious]

I think that's the best one I've heard in a year... "India and China have a secret understanding and China is gona let India have the regional status" LOL man! can someone wake this guy up?????? hahahaah I swear he's dreaming!! Son, it wud be great if u posted some links and evidence to back what all u're saying. None of us here believes in assumptions and self thought patriotic, emotional judgments. :smokingc:
[Mod edit: Please show respect towards others and earn some for yourself too. Thank You.]

[Panzer]

Like take an examples ....... If India fires 300 Bhramos anti ships missiles from land based lauchpad or from planes from 250 away , it can disable all 300 ships within 5 mins.

This is almost impossible

First, entire China's navy will have to be within 300KM(is it Km or miles??) of indian ships.

Secondly, India will have to know the location of every chinese ship.

And lastly, India needs enough ships to fire 300 bhramos simultaneously.

As I said almost impossible.

[mysterious]

Thats why I just said...somebody give Mukul a wake up notch! lol

[mukul]

Like take an examples ....... If India fires 300 Bhramos anti ships missiles from land based lauchpad or from planes from 250 away , it can disable all 300 ships within 5 mins.

This is almost impossible

First, entire China's navy will have to be within 300KM(is it Km or miles??) of indian ships.

Secondly, India will have to know the location of every chinese ship.

And lastly, India needs enough ships to fire 300 bhramos simultaneously.

As I said almost impossible.

Bhramos can be fired from land based system , Air plateforms and from ships also ... understand .. ..

Secondly where radar comes , India can easly detects surface ships easily.. this is not big deal with it ..




Anyway , Indo China is relation inproving fast , recent accost on tibet and sikkem is on record ... welll i am not telling things from the things you read , in beleave in practile and whats happening on ground

India , give space china on tiwan and in return guess what India get ???


man things happens behind curtains ,and in you wnat i can also post links ......... if you wnat

[WebMaster]

Mukul, always post source of your information when you make certain claims. Don't ask people "i can post likes if you want" that just tells us you will go out and search for the links. Just post the damn thing along with your reply containing whatever you claim. :!:

[Panzer]

Bhramos can be fired from land based system , Air plateforms and from ships also ... understand .. ..


As i understand it bhramos can only be fired from ships as of now. Air and land versions will be developed later

[gf0012-aust]

Bhramos can be fired from land based system , Air plateforms and from ships also ... understand .. ..


As i understand it Bhramos can only be fired from ships as of now. Air and land versions will be developed later

The Brahmos is an Indian modified version of the Russian supersonic P-800 Yakhont (Gem), which is a ramjet version of P-80 Zubr [SS-N-7 Starbright. At this stage it is Land and Surface ship launchable.

The Russian sub launched version is the P-800 Bolid. India (AFAIK) has yet to successfully test their version of the Bolid/Brahmos

[mukul]

Mukul, always post source of your information when you make certain claims. Don't ask people "i can post likes if you want" that just tells us you will go out and search for the links. Just post the damn thing along with your reply containing whatever you claim. :!:

India, in improving its relations with China, is trying to practice what it preaches to Pakistan: put more contentious issues on the back burner, try to solve easier problems first, while concentrating in the meantime on improving trade ties and people-to-people contacts. This strategy, the Indian leadership feels, will create an atmosphere conducive to solving bigger, more divisive issues, such as the Kashmir dispute with Islamabad.

Pursuing this strategy, during Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee's six-day China visit that ended on Friday, India and China have appointed special envoys to map out a resolution of long-standing border disputes, thus in effect putting this sensitive issue on the back burner, and instead they moved on to iron out their differences on issues such as the mutual recognition of Sikkim and Tibet as inalienable parts of each others' territory. In the meantime, they have given a big push to restarting Sino-Indian trade through traditional routes.

Making light of deeply sensitive and complex issues, seeking to get around them through semantic jugglery, both Indian and Chinese leaders appear determined to pursue their dream of making the 21st an Asian century. Indeed, Chinese Prime Minister Wen Jiabao reminded Vajpayee of Deng Xiaoping's famous remark to Rajiv Gandhi, "The 21st century can only be the Asian century if India and China combine to make it so."

The Indian prime minister quoted Deng in his speech and argued that while India and China will always compete with each other ("there is always a sense of competition between two close and equal neighbors"), the two countries need to "understand the difference between healthy competition and divisive rivalry".

Vajpayee's speeches were not only remarkable for what he said, but also for what he left unsaid. He did not mention the vexed half-a-century border dispute - China occupied a large chunk of territory in Aksai Chin during the 1962 border war that India believes to be its own. Nor did he mention another equally sensitive issue - Chinese military and other help to Pakistan, with whom India has already fought three wars and has been engaged in a low-intensity conflict for the past 13 years.

Also absent from his speeches were Indian fears that China is engaged in a policy of encircling India through developing strategic and military ties with all its hostile and not-so-hostile neighbors, such as Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Myanmar and Nepal.

One of the thorniest issues has been Chinese non-recognition of Indian sovereignty over Sikkim, a state that merged with India in 1975. Article I of the memorandum on expanding border trade, signed on Monday between India and China, states, "The Indian side agrees to designate Changgu of Sikkim state as the venue for border trade market; the Chinese side agrees to designate Renqinggang of the Tibet Autonomous Region as the venue for border trade market." Article II says, "The two sides agree to use Nathu La as the pass for entry and exit of persons, means of transport and commodities engaged in border trade."

The fact that trade between India and China through the Nathu La Pass in "Sikkim state" has been officially described as "border" trade is a clear indication that China has accepted Indian sovereignty over Sikkim. However, though China has consciously decided to accept the Indian position that Sikkim is a part of India - you cannot come to an agreement with India over trade across the border of a third country - the fact remains that it is reluctant to announce this formally, and maintains that this "leftover problem of history" will take time to resolve. It must be conceded that implied de facto recognition is not the same thing as a de jure one. But it is certainly an advance.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EF28Df07.html

[mustang]

The most interesting development in Chinese naval thinking has to do with the recent arrival of the ex-Soviet/Ukranian Varyag. The Chinese had made some claims that she was going to be turned into an amusement park. Since she's arrived in China, no work has been done to make that a reality. I'm confident of two possibilities: 1) The Varyag is going to be completed as an aircraft carier, shipping Mig-29s recently ordered by China or 2) they will use the carrier as a template for one of their own designs. Perhaps choosing the Su-27 as a strike aircraft. Either way, it will be a while before we see a carrier at sea flying the PLAN flag.


Mustang out :)

[mysterious]

Chinese are the world's best at reverse engineering; so you never know what they might be doing with it until they reveal it to you! They're damn good at it man! :smokingc:

[gf0012-aust]

The most interesting development in Chinese naval thinking has to do with the recent arrival of the ex-Soviet/Ukranian Varyag. The Chinese had made some claims that she was going to be turned into an amusement park. Since she's arrived in China, no work has been done to make that a reality. I'm confident of two possibilities: 1) The Varyag is going to be completed as an aircraft carier, shipping Mig-29s recently ordered by China or 2) they will use the carrier as a template for one of their own designs. Perhaps choosing the Su-27 as a strike aircraft. Either way, it will be a while before we see a carrier at sea flying the PLAN flag.


Mustang out :)

The most recent shots I have of that ship show that it is a mess. No work done on it and far from being ready for anything - let alone a casino.

It's bordering on being a hulk.

[mysterious]

Who knows? The Chinese might be ripping it apart and getting the relevant technical know-how they need out of it to integrate something from there into their own things. :help

[gf0012-aust]

Who knows? The Chinese might be ripping it apart and getting the relevant technical know-how they need out of it to integrate something from there into their own things. :help

They've had the ex-Australian Aircraft Carrier for about 20 years now, so if they take 20 years to evaluate the Varyag then they are in deep design trouble.

[mysterious]

Then there must be some other reason, 'cuz as far as I know; Chinese are pretty good and quick at this reverse engineering business!