JASDF Mix?

[Crusader2000]

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

[StevoJH]

Either F-35A for multi-role/strike and Typhoon for air defense or just lots of F-35's.

[Crusader2000]

Either F-35A for multi-role/strike and Typhoon for air defense or just lots of F-35's.

What would be the advantage of a mixed force of Lightnings and Typhoons?

[swerve]

Typhoons can be in service earlier, enabling a prompt replacement of older aircraft as they reach the ends of their lives. Japan can get full access to Typhoon software & hardware, with the right to customise them freely & install Japanese equipment (e.g. a new Japanese AESA radar) at will.

In the event of a problem grounding one type, Japan will have another type still operational.

F-35 might facilitate the relatively low-key acquisition, via F-35B, of a shipborne fixed-wing fighter force. It could be better for first day of war strikes against critical targets such as ballistic missile launch sites, & other hard targets.

[Crusader2000]

Typhoons can be in service earlier, enabling a prompt replacement of older aircraft as they reach the ends of their lives. Japan can get full access to Typhoon software & hardware, with the right to customise them freely & install Japanese equipment (e.g. a new Japanese AESA radar) at will.

In the event of a problem grounding one type, Japan will have another type still operational.

F-35 might facilitate the relatively low-key acquisition, via F-35B, of a shipborne fixed-wing fighter force. It could be better for first day of war strikes against critical targets such as ballistic missile launch sites, & other hard targets.


The F-35 will very likely enter service with the JASDF at some point and maybe even the JMSDF. While, you make some worthwhile arguments. I don't see them as a stronger case vs a single F-35 Fleet. Thats just my opinion. Which, is no reflection on the excellent "Typhoon".

[Waylander]

Time of replacement is a strong point all on it's own.
The JASDF need a replacement for their Phantoms and they need it ASAP.
Customizing imported systems has always been high on the wishlist of Japan. One just has to look at their F-15s, Kongos, AWACS, etc.
The same applies for being able to build and asemble the imported systems in Japan.
Japan wants to retain a nearly fully independent defense industry which might ramp up production all on it's own if the need arises. This is the reason for them building many small and expensive batches of their own equipment while the foreign stuff is build and customized in Japan.

And having to ground an entire fleet of one type of aircraft may very well happen. Just look at the US and their recent F-15 grounding.
With a 2 type fleet they are able to work around such a grounding.
With just one type their air warfare capabilities are severely hampered or they have to take a higher risk and may lose more aircrafts (and possibly pilots).

A two aircraft fleet with so different but excellent fighters is also going to cause a much bigger headache for any adversary as he has to plan for and cope with two totally different systems all with their own advantages and disadvantages.

[Crusader2000]

Time of replacement is a strong point all on it's own.
The JASDF need a replacement for their Phantoms and they need it ASAP.
Customizing imported systems has always been high on the wishlist of Japan. One just has to look at their F-15s, Kongos, AWACS, etc.
The same applies for being able to build and asemble the imported systems in Japan.
Japan wants to retain a nearly fully independent defense industry which might ramp up production all on it's own if the need arises. This is the reason for them building many small and expensive batches of their own equipment while the foreign stuff is build and customized in Japan.

And having to ground an entire fleet of one type of aircraft may very well happen. Just look at the US and their recent F-15 grounding.
With a 2 type fleet they are able to work around such a grounding.
With just one type their air warfare capabilities are severely hampered or they have to take a higher risk and may lose more aircrafts (and possibly pilots).

A two aircraft fleet with so different but excellent fighters is also going to cause a much bigger headache for any adversary as he has to plan for and cope with two totally different systems all with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Not putting all of your eggs in one basket always has merit. Yet, I don't see the Japanese buying non-American. (at least fighters) Plus, the fact in another couple of decades unmanned aircraft maybe the norm.


So, personally I could see the F-35 in JASDF Service. Replacing first the F-4's and then F-15's. Which, could see a F-2 Replacement being unmanned with something like projected X-47. Of course that is way in the future. Its more guess work than anything based in reality.

[Scorpion82]

Well the F-35 won't be available when the JASDF has to retire its F-4s. That would leave a fighter gap for quite some time and I don't think Japan is really interested in such a gap. Furthermore the new japanese government doesn't seem to be so much orientated towards the US as were previous governments and the Typhoon would be ideal both operationally and economically. There would be great benefits for the japanese Industry which can't be discarded and as the JASDF is primarily looking at a capable air defence fighter/interceptor Typhoon is a logical and good choice.

[Crusader2000]

Well the F-35 won't be available when the JASDF has to retire its F-4s. That would leave a fighter gap for quite some time and I don't think Japan is really interested in such a gap. Furthermore the new japanese government doesn't seem to be so much orientated towards the US as were previous governments and the Typhoon would be ideal both operationally and economically. There would be great benefits for the japanese Industry which can't be discarded and as the JASDF is primarily looking at a capable air defence fighter/interceptor Typhoon is a logical and good choice.



Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years. Also, if the JASDF needs a small number of aircraft as a stop gap before the F-35's come on line. They could just produce more F-2's. Which, has been recently discussed. (Like the RAAF and USN did with the Super Hornet)

Further, Japan's National Defense is firmly tied to its relationship with the US. As they are very well aware than Europe isn't going to drop everything to come to there Aid.. In an event of a Major Conflict in Southeast Asia.

I would add that the F-35 Version of the F-35A and F-35B are ideal for Japan. Beside operating the same type of aircraft as the majority of its Allies. The F-35A can loiter for long periods over Japanese Air Space and totally Stealthy at that. While, the F-35B can operate from remote sites and even ships.

[Bonza]

Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years. Also, if the JASDF needs a small number of aircraft as a stop gap before the F-35's come on line. They could just produce more F-2's. Which, has been recently discussed. (Like the RAAF and USN did with the Super Hornet)

Regarding the RAAF and USN, that's not really how it worked. The USN agreed to let us step in to their existing production run in order to get our Supers more quickly - so it was an existing, and a large, production line. For the F-2 however I believe you'd have to start up the entire production line again, as from what I know production stopped a few years ago.

[Grand Danois]

The youngest F-4 in Japanese service is 28 years old with a probable average age of 30 or more.

JASDF can't wait for the JSF to arrive. A qualified guess would be that replacements need to begin to arrive within 3 years.

The two aircraft that are in play would be the Typhoon or the F-15.

And perhaps to the detriment of posters who like the F-15, I'd clearly consider the Typhoon the better option of the two.

The two ifs, is that F-15 production in Japan could be done on existing tooling, and then the relationship with the U.S.

But the JSF cannot make it within the time constraints.

[turin]

The F-2 is no option for follow-on orders. Its ridiculously expensive for what it offers. The procurement of new foreign systems, from the US or Europe is a more viable option under any circumstances.

As was pointed out, there is a new government in Japan, and it differs with the US on quite some significant points. It wont put the strategic affiliation of Japan at risk, but a partial buy of Europan aircraft wont do that anyway. In fact the US these days have a very strong incentive to keep the Japanese at their side as the other way around, for reasons primarily concerning NK and China of course. Therefore this relationship cannot be strained easily by the Japanese following somewhat different procurement policies compared to what they did in the past. The budgetary situation in Japan is very problematic, to put it mildly. Therefore it seems imperative to also get a weapon system, that can be customised significantly in order to maximise Japanese involvement and benefits. In this regard the Eurofighter cannot be beaten by any US system.

Oh, I disagree as the F-35 could be made available with in the next ten years.

This "next ten years"-issue is exactly the problem and the reason why Japan considers an interim procurement. They do not have ten years time so wait what happens. The F-4 basically need replacements yesterday.

[Crusader2000]

Regarding the RAAF and USN, that's not really how it worked. The USN agreed to let us step in to their existing production run in order to get our Supers more quickly - so it was an existing, and a large, production line. For the F-2 however I believe you'd have to start up the entire production line again, as from what I know production stopped a few years ago.

Incorrect..............The F-2 will be in production until 2011 or beyond.






Source: NIKKEI NET�i“úŒoƒlƒbƒg�j�FŠé‹Æƒjƒ…�[ƒX�|Šé‹Æ‚ÌŽ–‹Æ�í—ª�A�‡•¹‚â’ñŒg‚©‚猈ŽZ‚â�lŽ–‚Ü‚Å‘¬ •ñ (http://www.nikkei.co.jp/news/sangyo/20090820AT1D0704N19082009.html)

Sorry, you will have to translate unless you can read Japanese.

Date: Aug 20, 2009

Quote:

The amber lights have in continuation of domestic fighter plane production. Because 2011, procurement schedule of the close support fighter “F2” by Air Self Defense Force ends before, American Lockheed Martin who produces the portion and the like of the main wing the policy of closing the line even during this month is set. The additional order of F2 becomes difficult, means that also production at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. which assemble the fuselage ends in 11. 　Assuming that the FX which is in the midst of selecting (FX) it could recognize domestic license production after 18. From the fact that it becomes considerable blank, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and the like sees “maintenance of production system becomes difficult”,

[Bonza]

Incorrect..............The F-2 will be in production until 2011 or beyond.






Source: NIKKEI NET�i“úŒoƒlƒbƒg�j�FŠé‹Æƒjƒ…�[ƒX�|Šé‹Æ‚ÌŽ–‹Æ�í—ª�A�‡•¹‚â’ñŒg‚©‚猈ŽZ‚â�lŽ–‚Ü‚Å‘¬ •ñ (http://www.nikkei.co.jp/news/sangyo/20090820AT1D0704N19082009.html)

Sorry, you will have to translate unless you can read Japanese.

Date: Aug 20, 2009

Quote:

The amber lights have in continuation of domestic fighter plane production. Because 2011, procurement schedule of the close support fighter “F2” by Air Self Defense Force ends before, American Lockheed Martin who produces the portion and the like of the main wing the policy of closing the line even during this month is set. The additional order of F2 becomes difficult, means that also production at the Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Ltd. which assemble the fuselage ends in 11. 　Assuming that the FX which is in the midst of selecting (FX) it could recognize domestic license production after 18. From the fact that it becomes considerable blank, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and the like sees “maintenance of production system becomes difficult”,

Indeed? My apologies - the information I was reading indicated the production line finished around the 2006-2007 mark.

[Crusader2000]

The youngest F-4 in Japanese service is 28 years old with a probable average age of 30 or more.

Other nations still operate F-4's that are older yet.

JASDF can't wait for the JSF to arrive. A qualified guess would be that replacements need to begin to arrive within 3 years.

Even the Typhoon couldn't be operational in three years. Especially, with the require Japanese Content.

The two aircraft that are in play would be the Typhoon or the F-15.

Neither type is really a viable option in "my opinion". As I don't see Japan buying European. At least not Fighter Types. For both Political and Strategic Reasons. The F-15 is already in service and is becoming obsolete. Both are non-starters.........Though the F-15 could be bought as a stop gap until the F-35 becomes available. Yet, it would be very expensive to re-start production. Which, gets back to the F-2. Which, has higher Japanese Content and is still in production.

And perhaps to the detriment of posters who like the F-15, I'd clearly consider the Typhoon the better option of the two.

While, the Typhoon maybe a little more capable fighter than the current F-15CJ Eagle. Both are likely to be no better than future models of the Flanker and inferior to the forthcoming J-XX (J-14?)

The two ifs, is that F-15 production in Japan could be done on existing tooling, and then the relationship with the U.S.

Personally, I don't see Japan re-starting F-15 Production. Especially, with the F-2 line still open. Also, remember the F-4's need to be replaced first. Which, the F-2 is ideally suited for in the strike fighter role. The current F-15 Fleet is not in immediate danger. So, it can wait for the F-35.;)

But the JSF cannot make it within the time constraints.

The Japanese seem to disagree with your accessment. As they put off the decision to replace the F-4's last year. Just recently they started looking once again. Thought most of the focus appears to be on the F-35.

[Grand Danois]

Other nations still operate F-4's that are older yet.

Apart from Iran and possibly Greece? Untrue. And these other operators are looking for replacements too. E.g. most of the Turkish airframes are zeroed and the rest are using them as second and third line jets. So no cigar.

Even the Typhoon couldn't be operational in three years. Especially, with the require Japanese Content.

Indeed EADS could. Look to SA for an example.


Neither type is really a viable option in "my opinion". As I don't see Japan buying European. At least not Fighter Types. For both Political and Strategic Reasons. The F-15 is already in service and is becoming obsolete. Both are non-starters.........Though the F-15 could be bought as a stop gap until the F-35 becomes available. Yet, it would be very expensive to re-start production. Which, gets back to the F-2. Which, has higher Japanese Content and is still in production.

Except that it is a woefully poor interceptor - it's essentially a marstriker.

While, the Typhoon maybe a little more capable fighter than the current F-15CJ Eagle. Both are likely to be no better than future models of the Flanker and inferior to the forthcoming J-XX (J-14?)

We disagree here. But won't discuss this diversion.

Personally, I don't see Japan re-starting F-15 Production. Especially, with the F-2 line still open. Also, remember the F-4's need to be replaced first. Which, the F-2 is ideally suited for in the strike fighter role. The current F-15 Fleet is not in immediate danger. So, it can wait for the F-35.;)

The Japanese need interceptors to replace jets in interceptor sqns. Not strikers.


The Japanese seem to disagree with your accessment. As they put off the decision to replace the F-4's last year. Just recently they started looking once again. Thought most of the focus appears to be on the F-35.

Playing the usual games. As the need draws more urgent, they'll be forced to make decision.

And as a mod: use quotes functionality properly or I'll delete your posts!

[Waylander]

I don't get how you can dismiss the timetable completely.
You say that the F-35 will be available within 10 years and on the other hand you say that the Typhoon won't be operational at short notice.
Do you think that the F-35 is going to be operational immediately even if Japan gets slots in 10 years? The JSF needs an implemention phase just like any other fighter.
The Typhoon could start production nearly immediately and I bet the member countries would be happy to postpone some of their current slots for a Japanese order while a line in Japan is constructed.

You also completely dismiss the fact that Japan is not going to be able to customize the JSF in any way while they may put everything they want into the Typhoon.

As Grand Denois said the F-2 is far away from being ideal. It is hoefully expensive for the capabilities it delivers. It has nearly no more growth potential and was never intended to be an interceptor. But that's what the JASDF need.

And I also don't see that the US is going to let Japan down in times of crisis just because they bought a couple of Typhoons (and F-35s later...).
Or do you think the US is abandoning the Brits because they also employ domestic and other foreign systems?

The Japanese may have loved to get the F-22 as it would fullfill their needs perfectly. But they won't get it and so they have to make a decision.
And this decision can't be made in 10 years.

[Crusader2000]

Other nations still operate F-4's that are older yet.

Apart from Iran and possibly Greece? Untrue. And these other operators are looking for replacements too. E.g. most of the Turkish airframes are zeroed and the rest are using them as second and third line jets. So no cigar.


Well, Japan did in fact put of the planned replacement of the F-4's just last year. So, they obviously didn't consider its replacement as critical.

Even the Typhoon couldn't be operational in three years. Especially, with the require Japanese Content.

Indeed EADS could. Look to SA for an example.

The Japanese are not going to purchase any "fighter" totally off shelf. So, I standby "my statement".

Neither type is really a viable option in "my opinion". As I don't see Japan buying European. At least not Fighter Types. For both Political and Strategic Reasons. The F-15 is already in service and is becoming obsolete. Both are non-starters.........Though the F-15 could be bought as a stop gap until the F-35 becomes available. Yet, it would be very expensive to re-start production. Which, gets back to the F-2. Which, has higher Japanese Content and is still in production.

Except that it is a woefully poor interceptor - it's essentially a marstriker.

Sorry, the F-35 is going to replace the F-4's at first in a Strike Fighter Role. Which, it is ideally suited. Regardless, the F-35 has Excellent Thrust to Weight, Sensors, and Weapons. So, I see no reason why I couldn't perform well in a AIR Defense Role. Just as many F-16's and F/A-18's do today.

While, the Typhoon maybe a little more capable fighter than the current F-15CJ Eagle. Both are likely to be no better than future models of the Flanker and inferior to the forthcoming J-XX (J-14?)

We disagree here. But won't discuss this diversion.

Really, how is this a diversion??? Clearly, any replacement for the current F-4 and F-15 Fleets in the JASDF. Would have to consider its future opponents. Which, in the case of Japan. Would likely come from China and Russia.

Personally, I don't see Japan re-starting F-15 Production. Especially, with the F-2 line still open. Also, remember the F-4's need to be replaced first. Which, the F-2 is ideally suited for in the strike fighter role. The current F-15 Fleet is not in immediate danger. So, it can wait for the F-35.;)

The Japanese need interceptors to replace jets in interceptor sqns. Not strikers.


Sorry, using that "Striker" term won't wash here. As "Striker" is just a short term for "Strike Fighter". Which, are often used in the Fighter Role. Which, today often includes types like F-16's. F/A-18's, Mig-29's, Mirage 2000. Typhoon, Rafale, etc. etc.

Regardless, the current requirement stated by the Japanese is for a F-4 Replacement. Not a pure interceptor type.

As a matter of fact as long as you bring up the subject. The F-22 is an Air Superiority Fighter and not a Pure Interceptor. Its all about Multi-Role Types.

The Japanese seem to disagree with your assessment. As they put off the decision to replace the F-4's last year. Just recently they started looking once again. Thought most of the focus appears to be on the F-35.

Playing the usual games. As the need draws more urgent, they'll be forced to make decision.

And as a mod: use quotes functionality properly or I'll delete your posts!


Clearly, the Japanese can't wait forever and will have to make a decision soon! So, I guess we finally agree on something.

BTW I am hardly playing games. I am simply expressing my own personal opinion. (which is what the forum is all about!) Please, feel free to express your own and provide as many counter points as you wish.

Lastly, I am likely using the quote functionality incorrectly? Yet, I am hardly doing so on purpose! Maybe you would consider as a "Moderator". Sending me a PM and explaining the correct method. Instead of threatening to delete my posts.:rolleyes: Just a thought........

[Crusader2000]

I don't get how you can dismiss the timetable completely.
You say that the F-35 will be available within 10 years and on the other hand you say that the Typhoon won't be operational at short notice.
Do you think that the F-35 is going to be operational immediately even if Japan gets slots in 10 years? The JSF needs an implemention phase just like any other fighter.
The Typhoon could start production nearly immediately and I bet the member countries would be happy to postpone some of their current slots for a Japanese order while a line in Japan is constructed.

If, Japan was going to purchase a fighter type totally off the shelf. Then clearly the Typhoon could enter service many years before the Lightning. Yet, Japan hasn't did so in many decades.

You also completely dismiss the fact that Japan is not going to be able to customize the JSF in any way while they may put everything they want into the Typhoon.


You know that for a fact??? If, I remember correctly Israel is going to use there own Avoinics in the F-35. So, are you saying the US wouldn't allow the Japanese to do the same???


As Grand Denois said the F-2 is far away from being ideal. It is hoefully expensive for the capabilities it delivers. It has nearly no more growth potential and was never intended to be an interceptor. But that's what the JASDF need.

Sorry, I've said this over and over. The current requirement is to replace the F-4 Fleet in the Strike Fighter Role. Which, is not to say that the F-35 can't perform the Air Defense Role. Just the basic fact is the requirement is for a Strike Fighter. (i.e. Fighter-Bomber) As a matter of fact the F-2 was designed and produced for that very role. Its also currently in production and has a high Japanese Content.

BTW If, more F-2's are produced. They would likely be just a Stop Gap. Until 5th Generation types come on line.

And I also don't see that the US is going to let Japan down in times of crisis just because they bought a couple of Typhoons (and F-35s later...).
Or do you think the US is abandoning the Brits because they also employ domestic and other foreign systems?

Of course not.....Yet, the point is Japan is better off operating the same types of aircraft as the US does. Which, can be much easily supported in times of Conflict or War. Clearly, a major advantage!

The Japanese may have loved to get the F-22 as it would fullfill their needs perfectly. But they won't get it and so they have to make a decision.
And this decision can't be made in 10 years.


Yes, Japan will have to get on the ball soon. As it will be at least a good decade before anything comes down the line. That is unless Japan decides soon to just purchase more F-2's as a Stop Gap. Which, is likely in my opinion. As it adds jobs to the Japanese Economy and is the only viable short-term solution.

[swerve]

Yes, Japan will have to get on the ball soon. As it will be at least a good decade before anything comes down the line. That is unless Japan decides soon to just purchase more F-2's as a Stop Gap. Which, is likely in my opinion. As it adds jobs to the Japanese Economy and is the only viable short-term solution.
"[A]t least a good decade" is probably true for F-35, but certainly not Typhoon, which could begin deliveries rather soon. The lines are running at less than capacity, component manufacturers can ramp up production, & some early stop-gap deliveries could be diverted from production slots currently reserved for Italy & maybe the UK. A significant number could be in service within 5 years.

[Crusader2000]

"[A]t least a good decade" is probably true for F-35, but certainly not Typhoon, which could begin deliveries rather soon. The lines are running at less than capacity, component manufacturers can ramp up production, & some early stop-gap deliveries could be diverted from production slots currently reserved for Italy & maybe the UK. A significant number could be in service within 5 years.

When was the last time that Japan purchased a new fighter totally off the shelf???

[StevoJH]

When was the last time that Japan purchased a new fighter totally off the shelf???

The first F-15J's were produced in the US, I'm guessing they were off the shelf. Remember that you can build the first aircraft off the shelf and slowly add your own avionics to later aircraft in the production run as it goes on, with the original aircraft taken to the same standard as they go in for deep maintenance.

And last time I checked, Israel was told they could not integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

[Crusader2000]

The first F-15J's were produced in the US, I'm guessing they were off the shelf. Remember that you can build the first aircraft off the shelf and slowly add your own avionics to later aircraft in the production run as it goes on, with the original aircraft taken to the same standard as they go in for deep maintenance.

And last time I checked, Israel was told they could not integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

Only a handful of JASDF F-15's were produced in the US. With the vast majority be built under license in Japan. With only 2 Single Seat F-15J's to be constructed in St Louis. Which, were followed some years later by 12 Two Seat F-15DJ's. Japan itself produced something like 223 Eagles under license..............

Note: Before the Japanese acquired the rights to build F-15 Eagles. It also produced F-86's and F-104's under license.

BTW You are mistaken about Israel being able to integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

[StevoJH]

Only a handful of JASDF F-15's were produced in the US. With the vast majority be built under license in Japan. With only 2 Single Seat F-15J's to be constructed in St Louis. Which, were followed some years later by 12 Two Seat F-15DJ's. Japan itself produced something like 223 Eagles under license..............

Straight from wikipedia, not that it matters. The point is that we are saying they can order Typhoons of the european production line until they get their own production line up and running. My point was that once they got their own production line up and running, they can slowly increase the Japanese content of the aircraft as production progresses, and then backfit those modifications to the earlier examples.


BTW You are mistaken about Israel being able to integrate their own avionics into the F-35.

Links or it didn't happen.

[Waylander]

How is the Typhoon totally of the shelf?
As others here said, Japan might very well get early slots of the member countries to begin construction of some early birds while they get their own line online.
Just like they did with the F-15 and just like many other countries do it when they procure large numbers of foreign fighters but want to build them on their own country.
This enables the Typhoon to enter service much earlier than any JSF version ever gets.

And with a lot more integrated Japanese technology in it as I also don't think that anyone outside the JSF member states is allowed to put ones own tech into the Jet.

I think nobody here stated that the F-35 can't be used in the air defense role.
But it just comes too late to replace the Phantoms.

The F-2, while being a nearly indigenious design is just not that good of a fighter.
AFAIK it isn't even able to employ active BVR missiles but just Sparrows and AAM-4s.
It was designed as a replacement for the F-1 and because of this only offers limited air defense capabilities.

The Phantoms in Japanese service first hadn't any air to ground capabilities whatsoever and just got them after some upgrades during their service life.
Their main task is still clearly air defense with strike being a secondary role.
Just contrary to the F-2.

And you stated that the thread by foreign air forces in the region is rising. Adding more F-2s to the fleet wouldn't enhance the air defense capabilities of the JASDF as much as other more air to air optimized fighters would.
Not that a Typhoon couldn't hit alot of ground targets.
There are enough air to ground munitions already integrated or are being integrated right now.

[longbow]

"[A]t least a good decade" is probably true for F-35, but certainly not Typhoon, which could begin deliveries rather soon. The lines are running at less than capacity, component manufacturers can ramp up production, & some early stop-gap deliveries could be diverted from production slots currently reserved for Italy & maybe the UK. A significant number could be in service within 5 years.

Standard T2 or T3's probably could be delivered quite soon, but one of the arguments put forward in favor of the EF is that they could put their own stuff in the airframe. All this stuff still has to be developed and integrated. So, imho if the EF was selected, it would still take some five years to get to IOC.


Edit: Note to self - Read the ENTIRE thread before posting - Yes, retrofitting domestic stuff could be done:)

[swerve]

Looks as if you answered yourself. :D

Yes, agreed: a full-spec Japanese-customised Typhoon* would take several (IMO at least 5) years to enter service, but an interim capability of standard production Typhoons could be delivered earlier & later retrofitted to the local standard, or even some T1s delivered on loan pending delivery of Japanese-built own-spec aircraft. I'm not saying that Japan would choose either, but they're both possible.

*Such an apt name, don't you think?

[Crusader2000]

Straight from wikipedia, not that it matters. The point is that we are saying they can order Typhoons of the european production line until they get their own production line up and running. My point was that once they got their own production line up and running, they can slowly increase the Japanese content of the aircraft as production progresses, and then backfit those modifications to the earlier examples.

The point is Japan will never purchase large numbers of Typhoons directly from Europe. As they would demand to build the vast majority under license in Japan. Which, they've done with every preceding fighter since the 1950's.

What they can and what they will do are two very different things.;)



Links or it didn't happen.
Quote:

Israel
In 2003, Israel signed a formal letter of agreement, worth almost $20 million, to join the System Development and Demonstration (SDD) effort for the F-35 as a "security cooperation participant" (SCP).[144] The Israeli Air Force (IAF) stated in 2006 that the F-35 is a key part of IAF's recapitalization plans, and that Israel intends to buy over 100 F-35A fighters at an estimated cost of over $5 billion to replace their F-16s over time.[145] Israel was reinstated as a partner in the development of the F-35 on 31 July 2006, after Israeli participation was put on hold following the Chinese arms deal crisis.[146]

On 16 November 2006, Yaakov Katz, of The Jerusalem Post reported that if no jet fighters were delivered to Israel between the last batch of F-16s in 2007 and the first F-35s in 2014 then the Israeli air force would decline in numbers as older fighters wore out and were retired.[147]

On 3 September 2007, IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi announced the purchase of a squadron of F-35s which Israel will begin receiving in 2014. However, U.S. defense officials later agreed to allow Israel to receive the fighters as early as 2012.[148] The price of each F-35 is expected to reach $70–80 million.[149]

The Jerusalem Post reports that the Pentagon has agreed to supply the F-35A variant to Israel as early as 2012, instead of in 2014 or 2015. This would make Israel one of the first nations to receive the aircraft, and very possibly the first foreign nation. Previous objections to Israel’s installation of its own technology in the F-35 – as it has done with every US fighter it has received – were also reportedly overcome. At present, the only Israeli technology in the standard version will be the JSF HMDS helmet-mounted display system, designed in cooperation with Elbit Systems. Israel also asked to manufacture F-35 aircraft locally at a 1:2 ratio, but the reports did not indicate whether that request was granted.[150] On 30 September 2008, the US DoD reported that Israel has requested to purchase 25 F-35As with options to buy up to 50 F-35As or F-35Bs.[151][152]

On 24 June 2009, The Jerusalem Post reported that an understanding had been reached on "the main basic issues". These include Israeli electronics and the ability to maintain the aircraft independently and that deliveries could start as early as 2014.[153]

On 10 July 2009, the Israeli Air Force submitted an official Letter of Request (LOR) to the Pentagon to purchase its first squadron of 25 F-35As.

[Crusader2000]

Looks as if you answered yourself. :D

Yes, agreed: a full-spec Japanese-customised Typhoon* would take several (IMO at least 5) years to enter service, but an interim capability of standard production Typhoons could be delivered earlier & later retrofitted to the local standard, or even some T1s delivered on loan pending delivery of Japanese-built own-spec aircraft. I'm not saying that Japan would choose either, but they're both possible.

*Such an apt name, don't you think?

We are not going to see Japanese Typhoons so the point is totally moot in my opinion.

[swerve]

The point is Japan will never purchase large numbers of Typhoons directly from Europe. As they would demand to build the vast majority under license in Japan. Which, they've done with every preceding fighter since the 1950's..
You're arguing against something which hasn't been proposed. What Stevo described, very clearly, is exactly what Japan has done in the past, i.e. get initial deliveries straight off a foreign production line while gearing up for domestic production. Yes, they will want to build most of them in Japan - and that's exactly what he described.

You are in effect responding to someone saying "The sky is blue" by saying "No, you're completely wrong: it's blue!".

[turin]

We are not going to see Japanese Typhoons so the point is totally moot in my opinion.

Good to know. I will ring the Japanese government asap and inform them about your decision.

In fact, the very comprehensive package of local production and future cooperative development of the whole program is one of the strongest points about the possibility to buy Typhoons. Your point about that has no ground in reality.

[Crusader2000]

You're arguing against something which hasn't been proposed. What Stevo described, very clearly, is exactly what Japan has done in the past, i.e. get initial deliveries straight off a foreign production line while gearing up for domestic production. Yes, they will want to build most of them in Japan - and that's exactly what he described.

You are in effect responding to someone saying "The sky is blue" by saying "No, you're completely wrong: it's blue!".


Steve described that Japan could get Typhoons off the current production line until Japan could get its own up and running? Well, in the most recent case. Japan initially received just "two" Single Seat F-15CJ's from American Production Line. (i.e. St. Louis) Which, has been the trend over the last few decades.


So, this whole point that Japan could get Typhoons with in 5 years is totally unsupported. As Japan would require the "vast majority" of its new fighter be built domestically. Plus, the fact they would also require a sizable Japanese Content. Which, would take considerable time to develop and incorporate.


In short any Japanese Typhoon would be a good decade or more off. Which, doesn't even touch on the fact that its extremely unlikely that Japan would select the type in the first place. (IMO)

[Crusader2000]

Good to know. I will ring the Japanese government asap and inform them about your decision.

In fact, the very comprehensive package of local production and future cooperative development of the whole program is one of the strongest points about the possibility to buy Typhoons. Your point about that has no ground in reality.


Well, your sarcasm is hardly called for. (and in poor taste)


The JASDF has a long history of purchasing US Equipment (i.e. Fighters) and producing it under license domestically. Further, said equipment has always included a fair amount of Japanese Content.

So, in fact my whole point is based in fact and thats the reality.:P2


None of which is to say the Typhoon. Isn't a excellent and extremely good fighter. Just that its unlikely to be purchased by the Japnese for a whole list of reason. Plus, the fact that even if it was. Its could never be available in "5 YEARS".

[Scorpion82]

Well, your sarcasm is hardly called for. (and in poor taste)


The JASDF has a long history of purchasing US Equipment (i.e. Fighters) and producing it under license domestically. Further, said equipment has always included a fair amount of Japanese Content.

So, in fact my whole point is based in fact and thats the reality.:P2


None of which is to say the Typhoon. Isn't a excellent and extremely good fighter. Just that its unlikely to be purchased by the Japnese for a whole list of reason. Plus, the fact that even if it was. Its could never be available in "5 YEARS".

Crusader you are right that the Japanese have ever bought US fighters since WW II was over. But with a new government in power and the recent purchase of european helicopters there might be shift in thinking of the Japanese. Nothing is for sure, but the possiblity is there. And while you argue against the Typhoon, the F-35 won't provide the industrial benefits at all and won'T be available at any reasonable timeframe as well. And while the Japanese are offered to use indigeous equipment it doesn't mean they will make excessive use of this ability.

And what has the intended israeli purchase to do with the japanese situation?

[Crusader2000]

Crusader you are right that the Japanese have ever bought US fighters since WW II was over. But with a new government in power and the recent purchase of european helicopters there might be shift in thinking of the Japanese. Nothing is for sure, but the possiblity is there. And while you argue against the Typhoon, the F-35 won't provide the industrial benefits at all and won'T be available at any reasonable timeframe as well. And while the Japanese are offered to use indigeous equipment it doesn't mean they will make excessive use of this ability.

I don't think purchasing a small number of Helicopters from Europe. Will drastically changing the situation.

And what has the intended israeli purchase to do with the japanese situation?

Because another member said the US wouldn't allow the Japanese to add their equipment to the F-35.



Regardless, we will see when Japan makes its selections.

[swerve]

Steve described that Japan could get Typhoons off the current production line until Japan could get its own up and running? Well, in the most recent case. Japan initially received just "two" Single Seat F-15CJ's from American Production Line. (i.e. St. Louis) Which, has been the trend over the last few decades.

So, this whole point that Japan could get Typhoons with in 5 years is totally unsupported. As Japan would require the "vast majority" of its new fighter be built domestically. Plus, the fact they would also require a sizable Japanese Content. Which, would take considerable time to develop and incorporate.

In short any Japanese Typhoon would be a good decade or more off. Which, doesn't even touch on the fact that its extremely unlikely that Japan would select the type in the first place. (IMO)
All these points have been addressed, & refuted. You have picked one point, partly addressed it, & then carried on repeating your previous claims as if nothing had been said in response to them.

Will you address any of these points, all of which have previously been made?

1) Japan can, if it wishes, get T1 Typhoons on lease pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. This would enable rapid delivery. The T1 Typhoons would be returned. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

2) Japan can, if it wishes, get T2 Typhoons delivered from Europe from production slots currently assigned to Italy or other consortium members, pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. The European-built Typhoons could be retrofitted with Japanese equipment. Due to a higher proportion of Japanese subsystems (e.g. a Japanese AESA radar), the total Japanese content should exceed that of the licence-built Typhoons, despite a larger number being imported directly. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

3) Even with neither of the above, Japan should be able to have Typhoon coming off a local production line, customised to Japanese requirements, within 5 years. Required customisation consists of the incorporation of Japanese susbsystems, in particular avionics. Integration of these can be conducted in parallel with setting up production, with little risk.

Compare the F-35:
1) US resistance to local variants is so strong that even the only Tier 1 JSF partner has had a fierce dispute with the USA on the minor point of integrating its own weapons. The prospects for a version with substantial Japanese content therefore appear extremely poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

2) There are no in-service F-35s for Japan to borrow.

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

4) Even a Tier 2 partner has been strongly discouraged from anything other than an assembly & check line, rather than the full production line Japan seeks. The prospects for the degree of local production sought by Japan therefore seem poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

5) If consent is given for a Japanese production line, it will not be possible to set it up until some years after a Typhoon production line could be delivering aircraft to the JASDF. Typhoon production is in full swing: JSF is still in development, with production so far consisting of pre-series development & test aircraft (despite labels to the contrary) only.

6) The USA says that due to the heavily integrated nature of the F-35, incorporation of non-standard systems, such as sought by Israel, is not practical. What does this tell us about the likelihood of a Japanese customised version?

7) The USA has had a prolonged disagreement with the only Tier 1 JSF partner over that partner being allowed to perform all its own F-35 maintenance. What does that say about the likelihood of full production being allowed in Japan: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

Note that your arguments against a Typhoon purchase all apply at least as strongly to an F-35 purchase. I imagine that negotiations over how or if Japanese content could be introduced would be neither easy nor quick. The Typhoon partners, on the other hand, have already expressed a willingness to facilitate any & every modification Japan may choose to make.

BTW, an interim F-2 purchase would need a quick decision. The 12th & last annual contract to LM for components was signed in April 2008, with deliveries beginning September 2008. Long lead items are going out of production as we write . . .
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/040808ae_f2mitsubishi.html

[SpudmanWP]

Compare the F-35:

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.

[Crusader2000]

All these points have been addressed, & refuted. You have picked one point, partly addressed it, & then carried on repeating your previous claims as if nothing had been said in response to them.

Will you address any of these points, all of which have previously been made?

1) Japan can, if it wishes, get T1 Typhoons on lease pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. This would enable rapid delivery. The T1 Typhoons would be returned. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

2) Japan can, if it wishes, get T2 Typhoons delivered from Europe from production slots currently assigned to Italy or other consortium members, pending delivery of Japanese-built Typhoons. The European-built Typhoons could be retrofitted with Japanese equipment. Due to a higher proportion of Japanese subsystems (e.g. a Japanese AESA radar), the total Japanese content should exceed that of the licence-built Typhoons, despite a larger number being imported directly. This satisfies Japans requirement for local production.

3) Even with neither of the above, Japan should be able to have Typhoon coming off a local production line, customised to Japanese requirements, within 5 years. Required customisation consists of the incorporation of Japanese susbsystems, in particular avionics. Integration of these can be conducted in parallel with setting up production, with little risk.

Compare the F-35:
1) US resistance to local variants is so strong that even the only Tier 1 JSF partner has had a fierce dispute with the USA on the minor point of integrating its own weapons. The prospects for a version with substantial Japanese content therefore appear extremely poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

2) There are no in-service F-35s for Japan to borrow.

3) There are no production slots available for early delivery of F-35 to Japan.

4) Even a Tier 2 partner has been strongly discouraged from anything other than an assembly & check line, rather than the full production line Japan seeks. The prospects for the degree of local production sought by Japan therefore seem poor: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

5) If consent is given for a Japanese production line, it will not be possible to set it up until some years after a Typhoon production line could be delivering aircraft to the JASDF. Typhoon production is in full swing: JSF is still in development, with production so far consisting of pre-series development & test aircraft (despite labels to the contrary) only.

6) The USA says that due to the heavily integrated nature of the F-35, incorporation of non-standard systems, such as sought by Israel, is not practical. What does this tell us about the likelihood of a Japanese customised version?

7) The USA has had a prolonged disagreement with the only Tier 1 JSF partner over that partner being allowed to perform all its own F-35 maintenance. What does that say about the likelihood of full production being allowed in Japan: Japan is not even a JSF partner.

Note that your arguments against a Typhoon purchase all apply at least as strongly to an F-35 purchase. I imagine that negotiations over how or if Japanese content could be introduced would be neither easy nor quick. The Typhoon partners, on the other hand, have already expressed a willingness to facilitate any & every modification Japan may choose to make.

BTW, an interim F-2 purchase would need a quick decision. The 12th & last annual contract to LM for components was signed in April 2008, with deliveries beginning September 2008. Long lead items are going out of production as we write . . .
LOCKHEED MARTIN RECEIVES TWELFTH ANNUAL CONTRACT FOR F-2 COMPONENT WORK | Lockheed Martin (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2008/040808ae_f2mitsubishi.html)


Sorry, we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is seriously interested in the Typhoon. Nor, that such arrangement as you described would be acceptable even if it was. As a matter of fact the History of Japanese Fighter Procurement and its Strategic Alliance with the United States. Makes purchasing the "Typhoon" as highly unlikely.


So, until I see an official order for Typhoons from Japan. I personally consider the possibility as remote at best.


Again in MY OPINION.

[Crusader2000]

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.



Really. I don't see any other options than the F-35 for Japan. As its the only aircraft currently available that is capable of countering expected Future Chinese and Russian Threats. Plus, the fact that Japan has a strong Strategic Interest in buying "American".

[swerve]

Most seem to forget that the original plan was to produce up to 250 F-35s per year. A few years back, the US pared that back to 230 and stretched out the production to save money. But, the line can still produce 250 a year if LM can get the orders.

There is plenty of room for Japan to order early F-35s if it wants to.
But "early" in F-35 production is late compared to possible Typhoon deliveries (that line is planned to hit 230 per year when?), & does not meet the Japanese requirement for local production.

[swerve]

Sorry, we've seen nothing to suggest that Japan is seriously interested in the Typhoon. Nor, that such arrangement as you described would be acceptable even if it was. As a matter of fact the History of Japanese Fighter Procurement and its Strategic Alliance with the United States. Makes purchasing the "Typhoon" as highly unlikely.


So, until I see an official order for Typhoons from Japan. I personally consider the possibility as remote at best.


Again in MY OPINION.
Your completely uninformed, & often proved wrong opinion. Your opinion is routinely at variance with provable facts, such as your claim that Randy Cunningham had never been convicted of anything - a claim you supported by reporting a personal meeting with him, despite him already having been in jail for over a year at the time. Or your opinion that the Gripen NG would have the Vixen 500E radar.

I note that you have, yet again, responded in pure troll mode. Having been presented with cogent arguments which you lack the wit or knowledge to answer, you simply ignore them, & repeat your "opinion", as if it trumps all facts.

I ask again: will you answer any of the points above? If not, I suggest you back out of this debate, since you are refusing to make any contribution to it, but are, instead, throwing clogs in the looms.

[SpudmanWP]

But "early" in F-35 production is late compared to possible Typhoon deliveries (that line is planned to hit 230 per year when?), & does not meet the Japanese requirement for local production.

My reference to the F-35 time-line had nothing to do with the Typhoon, just the F-22EX.

The buy time-line from 2013 through 2020 (buy-years with delivery ~24 months later) goes:
2013=132 (LRIP7)
2014=199 (LRIP8)
2015=230
2016=231
2017=230
2018=219
2019=181
2020=159.

These numbers are BEFORE the increased buy proposed by Gates this year. No definitive version of that scheduled has been released.

[Crusader2000]

Your completely uninformed, & often proved wrong opinion. Your opinion is routinely at variance with provable facts, such as your claim that Randy Cunningham had never been convicted of anything - a claim you supported by reporting a personal meeting with him, despite him already having been in jail for over a year at the time. Or your opinion that the Gripen NG would have the Vixen 500E radar.

What a joke.................First, I never made any such claims about "Randy Cunningham and "DARE YOU" to provide a source! (BTW I've met Randy Cunningham have you?)

Second, for the members that don't know what "Swerve" is talking about in regards to the Gripen NG. I will be happy to enlighten them. When it was reviled that Selex and SAAB was going to jointly develop a New AESA Radar. They claimed that the new radar would incorporate the "FRONT END of the Vixen 500E and the BACK-END of the current PS-05/A Radar in the Gripen. Well, in short the Vixen Model Number (500 in this case) usually reflects the number of T/R Modules. So, at that time I believed that was the number carried by the new AESA Radar. Especially, with no official source that provide contrary information. Well, to make a long story short. Later on SAAB clarified that the new radar did in fact carry ~ 1000 T/R Modules. At which time I conceded the issue.

Oh, god how terrible..............

Personally, it sounds like you can't win the debate. So, you bring up other debates fictional or not. Trying to discredit me...........

"REALLY YOUR REMARKS ARE IN VERY POOR TASTE AND SUCH REMARKS HAVE NO PLACE ON THIS FORUM"

I note that you have, yet again, responded in pure troll mode. Having been presented with cogent arguments which you lack the wit or knowledge to answer, you simply ignore them, & repeat your "opinion", as if it trumps all facts.

So, its not fact that Japan has purchased only American Fighters since the 1950's? Nor, is it fact that Japan requires its fighters must be produced in country and under license??


Please, you have provided no "facts" what so ever! While, I've provided a "History" of facts.

I ask again: will you answer any of the points above? If not, I suggest you back out of this debate, since you are refusing to make any contribution to it, but are, instead, throwing clogs in the looms.

I ask again can you provide a source that supports the Japan is seriously interested in the Typhoon or your grand scheme to produce a number of Typhoons in the UK to be followed by examples constructed in Japan.


WAITING...............:rolleyes:

[gf0012-aust]

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