JASDF Mix?

[Crusader2000]

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

[Toptob]

Maybe I could be called a fanboy. But I think they could make a good start with purchasing Rafales. I think if they buy a lot of them they can squeeze the French for a good price and step into the development process.

[Vivendi]

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

Medium-to-long term: The F-35, no doubt.

That leaves the short term gap that needs to be filled urgently.

Some possible options:

1. Get some Typhoons

2. Produce more F-15J

3. Produce more F-2s

Given the high price of the F-2 compared to the capability of that a/c my guess would be that they would go for either option 1 or 2. Japanese Eurofighters sounds intriguing, however (perhaps as a corollary to Murphy's law?) boring things normally happen. So my bet would be on some more F-15s as a stop-gap, and after that it's F-35 all the way.

I don't believe in Rafale for Japan. Too expensive and what would be the benefits ? Independence from the US? :rolleyes:

[zeven]

Considering the rapid growth of the PLAAF. What mix of fighters should the JASDF field to counter future threats?

Why have diffirent paltforms when perfect mulirole platforms are and will be available?

[Rythm]

Cost. Not even the financially strongest nation on the planet (USA) exchanges all its aircraft in one go because it costs too much. So a mix for the JASDF would include F-15J and F-2 no matter what. I would recommend upgrading the current F-15Js with AESA radar, CFTs and other things to bring them to the same standard as the F-15Ks. Get a second production batch of F-2s, while these are 4th gen aircraft "only", they are surely good against older chinese aircraft like J-7, and will be a lethal anti-shipping option against naval targets.

Something must be done to counter the J-10, J-11 and J-XX, and it should be a high-end solution. Ideal would be a F-22J. But that seems to be a no-go. Second-best option currently is the Typhoon, whilst a F-3 (Based on the ShinShin) is a more long-term (and more expensive) solution.

[StevoJH]

A very similar conversation was had on this topic not long ago, the thread has an identical name to this one and can be found further down the page (its locked now).

In my opinion, buying more F15's is not a solution, better to buy a newer platform such as the Typhoon that is available quickly and still has a lot of room left in the airframe and avionics for further development, unlike the F-16's and F-15's which have been constantly refined and developed further over the last 30 or so years.

[Vivendi]

A very similar conversation was had on this topic not long ago, the thread has an identical name to this one and can be found further down the page (its locked now).

In my opinion, buying more F15's is not a solution, better to buy a newer platform such as the Typhoon that is available quickly and still has a lot of room left in the airframe and avionics for further development, unlike the F-16's and F-15's which have been constantly refined and developed further over the last 30 or so years.
I disagree; Japan should go for the F-35. However this means they would need a stop-gap. To me the question then becomes; what would be the cheapest and simplest stop-gap? The Typhoon while an excellent a/c sounds more like a permanent solution than a stop-gap. Japan already operates F-15 so to me it seems more logical to buy some more of them and switch to the F-35 once it's available.

[Crusader2000]

I disagree; Japan should go for the F-35. However this means they would need a stop-gap. To me the question then becomes; what would be the cheapest and simplest stop-gap? The Typhoon while an excellent a/c sounds more like a permanent solution than a stop-gap. Japan already operates F-15 so to me it seems more logical to buy some more of them and switch to the F-35 once it's available.



The cheapest and simplest stop-gap for Japan. Would be just to purchase more F-2's that are still coming down the production line...........;)

[Vivendi]

The cheapest and simplest stop-gap for Japan. Would be just to purchase more F-2's that are still coming down the production line...........;)
Perhaps, perhaps not. I notice that Japan has decided to reduce the number of F-2s and I assume there is a good reason for that. It seems they are not quite happy with the a/c, some claim it's the poor performance/cost ratio... If it's roughly as expensive as the F-15 why not buy some more F-15s while waiting for the F-35?

Also, did they integrate some decent a2a weapons into the F-2?

[zeven]

Vivendi is right.
with more F-15 you do not need training new infrastructure / logostics and so on. but still have the power and air supiority needed until F-35 becomes available.

[Rythm]

F-2 would benefit national industry more than F-15 since it contains more japan-designed parts than F-15 which is a license-production (from kits IIRC?).

[swerve]

The cheapest and simplest stop-gap for Japan. Would be just to purchase more F-2's that are still coming down the production line...........;)
Why do you keep repeating yourself?

BTW, that should be one sentence. There should be no full stop after "Japan", & the "W" in "Would" should be lower-case.

[Musashi_kenshin]

Typhoons for air-intercept to fill the more immediate gaps
F-35s for multi-role for the longer term

Simples.

[battlensign]

Typhoons for air-intercept to fill the more immediate gaps
F-35s for multi-role for the longer term

Simples.

Caveat Emptor? No, Caveat Brits bearing surplus tranche 3 Typhoons! ;) :D

The answer in the interim is the F-15SE, the F-35 in the medium and an indigenous 5th gen fighter in the long term.

Brett.

[optionsss]

What about F-15 silent eagle. Japan already have the infrastructure to support F-15J, add another F-15 variant should be cheep. It would also give Japan credible air deterrence against DPRK as well. I am not sure with F-2's range, they can perform bombing sorties against DPRK.

[Musashi_kenshin]

Caveat Emptor? No, Caveat Brits bearing surplus tranche 3 Typhoons!

We wouldn't sell Japan surplus Typhoons, unless it was a small initial number to get them going, as part of the deal is enabling Japan to build them itself, giving them tech transfer and having possible upgrades over what is already part of Tranche 3.

What about F-15 silent eagle. Japan already have the infrastructure to support F-15J, add another F-15 variant should be cheep.

It hasn't been produced yet and the cost is uncertain - how can you say it would be cheap? Probably more expensive than a Typhoon given there's an order book of zero so far.

[swerve]

Caveat Emptor? No, Caveat Brits bearing surplus tranche 3 Typhoons! ;) :D

The answer in the interim is the F-15SE, the F-35 in the medium and an indigenous 5th gen fighter in the long term.

Brett.
Any surplus Typhoons will be Tranche 1, not Tranche 3, & not available until T3 is being taken into service.

F-15SE is a mock-up so far. Neither low-risk nor quick, I'd say.

[battlensign]

Any surplus Typhoons will be Tranche 1, not Tranche 3, & not available until T3 is being taken into service.

F-15SE is a mock-up so far. Neither low-risk nor quick, I'd say.

1) Really? How was the Saudi deal done?

2) F-15SE variant couldn't be that difficult...........not re-inventing the wheel.:rolleyes:

Brett.

[swerve]

Diversion of 24 T2 production slots, to be made up later. The "made up later" bit has since been reneged on, though not quite explicitly: those 24 aircraft have been ordered as part of T3A. But I don't reckon we can repeat that. The Tornado F3s will be long gone when the first T3 arrives. Also, the economic environment is likely to have changed. The replacement of the 24 lost T2 was reneged on this year, in the depths of the current economic crisis.

Right now, the RAF is struggling to meet training & service commitments with its Typhoon fleet, due to not having enough aircraft.

No, The F-15SE isn't re-inventing the wheel. But it is a significant modification, & so far only exists as a mock-up. The alternatives are in full-rate production, & have been in service for some time. Which is higher risk, & which will take longer to deliver?

[optionsss]

It hasn't been produced yet and the cost is uncertain - how can you say it would be cheap? Probably more expensive than a Typhoon given there's an order book of zero so far.

I think in general, procurement cost is a lot less than the operating cost for an AC. So it is very likely that introduce a F-15 variant would be cheaper than a completely new AC.

Also, I am not sure Japan would be satisfied with just buying a boat load of AC, they had always wanted to be able to assemble the AC with largely indigenous parts. They already have an assembly line in place along with the sub-contractors for F-15J, building F-15SE in Japan probably would end up cheaper. Even if it end up being more expensive, the money would still end up supporting domestic air industry.

[swerve]

... They already have an assembly line in place along with the sub-contractors for F-15J, building F-15SE in Japan probably would end up cheaper. Even if it end up being more expensive, the money would still end up supporting domestic air industry.
The assembly line closed in a previous millennium. The last F-15J was delivered on 10th December 1999.

[battlensign]

The assembly line closed in a previous millennium. The last F-15J was delivered on 10th December 1999.

Yeah, but if you just tilt your head to the right and squint just so............the date still looks like 10 years ago ;P

In whatever form it takes, I think we can all agree that an upgraded F-15 variant of some description is still the highest capability interim solution - although it may not be possible for a build in Japan.

Brett.

[Musashi_kenshin]

I think in general, procurement cost is a lot less than the operating cost for an AC. So it is very likely that introduce a F-15 variant would be cheaper than a completely new AC.

It's not just a variant, as swerve said it's a mock-up. Typhoon is in production and proven.

Also, I am not sure Japan would be satisfied with just buying a boat load of AC, they had always wanted to be able to assemble the AC with largely indigenous parts.

Did you ignore the bit where I said we'd enable Japan to build them and give tech transfer?

[jaffo4011]

Yeah, but if you just tilt your head to the right and squint just so............the date still looks like 10 years ago ;P

In whatever form it takes, I think we can all agree that an upgraded F-15 variant of some description is still the highest capability interim solution - although it may not be possible for a build in Japan.

Brett.


err,why do we all agree to that?...the f15 is a thirty plus year old aircraft which is why the japanese havent automatically just bought upgraded versions and is looking for a modern solution ie typhoon/f35 etc.,...

[battlensign]

err,why do we all agree to that?...the f15 is a thirty plus year old aircraft which is why the japanese havent automatically just bought upgraded versions and is looking for a modern solution ie typhoon/f35 etc.,...

Sorry, I was only talking about the upgraded F-15 variant for their interim solution until F-35s can be bought in significant numbers......

Brett.

[StevoJH]

Sorry, I was only talking about the upgraded F-15 variant for their interim solution until F-35s can be bought in significant numbers......

Brett.

An "interim solution" costs too much these days to be considered realistic. The F-18F's purchased for the RAAF are an exception to this, because it has already been agreed that the USN will purchase them back from the RAAF in 10-15 years. I doubt the USAF would be interested in anything similar for F-15's as unlike the F-18F, it is not still in production for the Parent service.