PAKFA and plasma stealth

[Kevin123]

Will the latest Russian PAKFA fighter use plasma stealth in its design? If yes then it means the Russians went completely the other way then Americans trying to make their aircraft invisible. The question is plasma stealth really works?

[PhysicsMan]

Will the latest Russian PAKFA fighter use plasma stealth in its design? If yes then it means the Russians went completely the other way then Americans trying to make their aircraft invisible. The question is plasma stealth really works?

What do you mean by works? If one manages to create and maintain a layer of it around the plane then, yes it works, to the point of real invisibility to modern radars. The question is whether it can be done energy-wise, and where on a plane it can be done, and if it can be maintained.

[Feanor]

Oh no.... not another one. Ok. A few basic facts. No working plasma stealth prototype has been demonstrated. The Su-35BM is using conventional RCS reduction techniques. Plasma stealth has almost entirely disappeared from Russian press when talking about the future fighter jet. With those facts in mind.... try to keep this discussion reasonable and sane.

[PhysicsMan]

Oh no.... not another one. Ok. A few basic facts. No working plasma stealth prototype has been demonstrated. The Su-35BM is using conventional RCS reduction techniques. Plasma stealth has almost entirely disappeared from Russian press when talking about the future fighter jet. With those facts in mind.... try to keep this discussion reasonable and sane.

No need to overheat about this, it was just a note that the method does exist in theory, and it does work in theory. Nowhere was it stated that it is being implemented, especially not on SU-35. But if talking about perspective equipment, such as PAKFA or a next gen product, even if it was being implemented on it, I would think "the press" could easily have no access to that information, at the very least it's very possible that it wouldn't. Obviously you and I and everyone else on here draws their info on this from the press, so I would show a little more reservation about what is reasonable and sane when talking about the most advanced military project of such an extremely secretive military as the Russian one.

[cobzz]

The only demonstrated use of plasma stealth on a Sukhoi was essentially a plasma screen in front of the radar, which helped to prevent massive reflections from the big MSA. The catch was the radar could not be operated at the same time. Furthermore, it would have no benefit on an AESA radar as it is not mechanical, and can be angled away minimizing any RCS vulnerabilities. As far as plasma stealth envoloping an entire aircraft - that's bull crap made up by Sukhoi fanboys, and then spread around by the unsuspecting.

[Feanor]

I know you guys are rational people. My post was mainly directed at kevin123. As for the press, in the past the press routinely speculated about the use of plasma stealth for future fighter jets, including the PAK-FA. In the last couple of years this has disappeared almost entirely. I think it is indicative of something.

[Kevin123]

I know you guys are rational people. My post was mainly directed at kevin123. As for the press, in the past the press routinely speculated about the use of plasma stealth for future fighter jets, including the PAK-FA. In the last couple of years this has disappeared almost entirely. I think it is indicative of something.


Feanor, I speak fluent Russian and I have 5 Russian channels at home. During last air show at the Zukovsky airfield one of the PAK FA engineers gave interview and he spoke that plasma stealth will be incorporated in to the design of the aircraft.

[F-15 Eagle]

What exactly is plasma stealth anyway? I was wondering what that even is, I've heard of it before.

[Feanor]

Do you happen to have the name of the show? I'll try and find it online and watch it. Fyi I speak fluent Russian as well, so if you have other Russian language material on the matter I will be grateful. If you have something of substance please post it.

[Haavarla]

Feanor, I speak fluent Russian and I have 5 Russian channels at home. During last air show at the Zukovsky airfield one of the PAK FA engineers gave interview and he spoke that plasma stealth will be incorporated in to the design of the aircraft.


Forgive me Kevin123 if i find this whole plasma stealth utter nonsens.
Why don't anybody surprize me with even the slightes sign of material on this matter.


Thanks

[Kevin123]

Do you happen to have the name of the show? I'll try and find it online and watch it. Fyi I speak fluent Russian as well, so if you have other Russian language material on the matter I will be grateful. If you have something of substance please post it.


Feanor there is wealth of information on plasma stealth in Russian here

YouTube - plasma stealth (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plasma+stealth&search_type=&aq=7&oq=plasma+s)

[Haavarla]

Feanor there is wealth of information on plasma stealth in Russian here

YouTube - plasma stealth (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=plasma+stealth&search_type=&aq=7&oq=plasma+s)


Those youtube clips have circulated for many years now. Nothing new on the matter.
Why am i responding to this thread at all..:(



Thanks

[PhysicsMan]

Those youtube clips have circulated for many years now. Nothing new on the matter.
Why am i responding to this thread at all..:(



Thanks

here, be surprised

http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/JOURNAL/VRAN/03_10/STELLS.HTM

[SkolZkiy]

It was said that plasma generator wos designed and tested on some AC. But after this it was rejected.
Plasma field can absorb any radiowaves but not only in direction TO AC but also FROM AC. So it became invisible BUT also it becamr BLIND. That was the main reason of rejection from use this system.

[Haavarla]

here, be surprised

VIVOS VOCO: À.Í. Ëàãàðüêîâ, Ì.À. Ïîãîñÿí, "ÔÓÍÄÀÌÅÍÒÀËÜÍÛÅ È ÏÐÈÊËÀÄÍÛÅ ÏÐÎÁËÅÌÛ ÑÒÅËÑ-ÒÅÕÍÎËÎÃÈÉ" (http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/JOURNAL/VRAN/03_10/STELLS.HTM)


Is it in Cyrilsk letters PhysicsMan?
I can't make out heads of tails here..


Thanks

[PhysicsMan]

It was said that plasma generator wos designed and tested on some AC. But after this it was rejected.
Plasma field can absorb any radiowaves but not only in direction TO AC but also FROM AC. So it became invisible BUT also it becamr BLIND. That was the main reason of rejection from use this system.

No, it did not say that, not in that paper. It said that they have developed such a device - for minimizing the signal from the radar, by using a plasma screen, and that it's available to be implemented. The time to switch it on and off is said to be in microseconds - off for firing your own beam and on the rest of the time.

[PhysicsMan]

Is it in Cyrilsk letters PhysicsMan?
I can't make out heads of tails here..


Thanks

I apologize, for some reason I thought you knew Russian... It's a really fascinating paper, a "stealth tech 101". It goes over all the basics of RCS reduction in quite a detail... It was written by two members of the Russian Academy of Sciences, one of whom just happens to be M. Pogosyan - head of Sukhoi... One interesting thing that you can understand there is a diagram supposedly showing RCS of various western aircraft, pretty cool...

[Kevin123]

If Russians have the ability to create a unit of plasma stealth for aircraft can they also make smaller and put it on the missile for (mig-29, su-27, PAK FA)?

[PhysicsMan]

If Russians have the ability to create a unit of plasma stealth for aircraft can they also make smaller and put it on the missile for (mig-29, su-27, PAK FA)?

I would say unlikely in a near future. There are more reasonable ways they use to reduce missile RCS, like coatings and structural considerations. Plasma use requires a power source, besides, missiles usually travel so fast that it would be very energy consuming to keep plasma around it.

[LS1 Miata]

No need to overheat about this, it was just a note that the method does exist in theory, and it does work in theory.

No it doesn't. Plasma stealth requires a lot of heat. Plasma by definition is very hot. Heat stands out to IR sensors like a sore thumb. Therefore, plasma stealth doesn't work, because it doesn't help with reducing the aircraft's overall footprint across all sensors.

[PhysicsMan]

No it doesn't. Plasma stealth requires a lot of heat. Plasma by definition is very hot. Heat stands out to IR sensors like a sore thumb. Therefore, plasma stealth doesn't work, because it doesn't help with reducing the aircraft's overall footprint across all sensors.

Why don't you read up on this subject a bit more before making statements like that. Plasma is NOT hot by definition, plasma does NOT necessarily require heat, and plasma does NOT necessarily have a big IR signature.

[LS1 Miata]

Why don't you read up on this subject a bit more before making statements like that. Plasma is NOT hot by definition, plasma does NOT necessarily require heat, and plasma does NOT necessarily have a big IR signature.

The energy requirements for surrounding an entire aircraft in an envelope of plasma is inevitably going to lead to overheating problems . Do you know that the F-35 has some overheating problems with it's avionics? Those problems are rather simple by comparison, and can be dealt with. The amount of energy required for plasma stealth, however, can't. Plasma stealth would also emit a lot of EM radiation - NOT very stealthy.

So while it may be effective at reducing an aircraft's overall radar cross section, the energy requirements would overheat the aircraft, all the while producing EM radiation. The whole point of a stealth aircraft is to reduce it's footprint across the entire spectrum - radar, IR, electronic emissions, optics (camouflage), etc, etc...

So with that, plasma stealth does not work, as it only reduces the aircraft RCS, while increasing it's footprint in other areas. It is probably far too expensive, and doesn't yield the desired results needed to survive on today's battlefield.

[PhysicsMan]

The energy requirements for surrounding an entire aircraft in an envelope of plasma is inevitably going to lead to overheating problems . Do you know that the F-35 has some overheating problems with it's avionics? Those problems are rather simple by comparison, and can be dealt with. The amount of energy required for plasma stealth, however, can't. Plasma stealth would also emit a lot of EM radiation - NOT very stealthy.

So while it may be effective at reducing an aircraft's overall radar cross section, the energy requirements would overheat the aircraft, all the while producing EM radiation. The whole point of a stealth aircraft is to reduce it's footprint across the entire spectrum - radar, IR, electronic emissions, optics (camouflage), etc, etc...

So with that, plasma stealth does not work, as it only reduces the aircraft RCS, while increasing it's footprint in other areas. It is probably far too expensive, and doesn't yield the desired results needed to survive on today's battlefield.

Nonsense. The power source for the plasma can be very compact and isolated, and the radiation from plasma can be controlled and manipulated (=minimized).

In any case, It has already been shown to significantly reduce radar exposure in experiments - it's not a question of whether it works or not, it does, but of how to effectively integrate it into an aircraft. While at this point it may not be readily achievable to envelope the whole aircraft with plasma, they can definitely use it to reduce RCS of certain noisy areas, like the prototype built at Sukhoi to shield the forward radar.

[LS1 Miata]

Nonsense. The power source for the plasma can be very compact and isolated, and the radiation from plasma can be controlled and manipulated (=minimized).

Not when we're covering the entire aircraft in it. Good luck covering up that kind of radiation.

In any case, It has already been shown to significantly reduce radar exposure in experiments - it's not a question of whether it works or not, it does, but of how to effectively integrate it into an aircraft. While at this point it may not be readily achievable to envelope the whole aircraft with plasma, they can definitely use it to reduce RCS of certain noisy areas, like the prototype built at Sukhoi to shield the forward radar.

Controlled experiments do not equate to the battlefield, where things rarely ever go as planned. Conventional methods of stealth technology (LO airframe, LPI radar, IR suppression, etc...) are still the preferred choice for a country that wants to build a stealth aircraft. There's a reason why the Su-35BM has conventional stealth technology incorporated into it. It works. It's combat proven. It's relatively cheaper. I could go on. The Russians realize that the exotic plasma stealth just isn't going to work in the real world, so even they have to move to more conventional methods for their -35BM and PAK-FA models.

[Feanor]

One important qualifier. It doesn't work... today. But the technology may very well have a future.

[SpudmanWP]

The likely first use of "plasma stealth" will be inside the nose radar section in order to block the flat radar face from being a big RCS reflector.

[dragonfire]

The likely first use of "plasma stealth" will be inside the nose radar section in order to block the flat radar face from being a big RCS reflector.

Isnt the radar encased in the 'nose cone' of the a/c and therefore not 'flat', which enables deflection of radar to a certain degree. But the usage could very well be in the area for radiation masking

[SpudmanWP]

The radar dish itself and the bulkhead behind it are flat.

[Marc 1]

Isnt the radar encased in the 'nose cone' of the a/c and therefore not 'flat', which enables deflection of radar to a certain degree. But the usage could very well be in the area for radiation masking

Dragonfire, the nose cone as you put it must be transparent to radar, otherwise the radar it contains wouldn't work. Ergo, it does not shield the front of the aircraft.